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Anonymous

Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: poopship]
    #577595 - 03/13/02 04:24 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

This has nothing to do with culture or Eurocentrism, to equate the scientic method
with a perceived social ill is a non-sequitur and does nothing to bolster your
arguments. Do you assume that only European cultures have scientifically
minded people? If so, then you have a very narrow viewpoint of the world.
As the easiest example, a quick perusal of the nature of the development
of some martial arts would open your eyes that other cultures have applied
scientific methods to their endeavors.

It makes no sense that you should insist on trying to bolster your arguments by
relying on the straw man of Eurocentrism. You know nothing of me or my
degree of introspection, you just find it convenient to throw out labels and
platitudes that have no relevency to the object of persuading others to see
your point of view. I did not put the label PC on something that challenges my
beliefs. I placed it on the concept of placing blame on Eurocentrism.
You are projecting onto me things which are way off base, you have no idea
about me and it shows. Bringing up the idea that "we... force other societies
to conform to our practices and look down on those who do not resemble our
culture"
says a lot about you but says nothing about me.

I am willing to listen if you would actually attempt to present a persuasive
argument. You're not preaching to the choir. So stop, take a deep breath
and ask yourself, "how can I frame my argument so as to prompt a scientifically
minded person to pause and consider what I have to say?"


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: ]
    #577794 - 03/13/02 12:10 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"This model can be greatly distorted by altering brain chemistry"

This assumes that you know the model you are "distorting" it from has anymore validity than the "distorted" state. We don't.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Xlea321]
    #577847 - 03/13/02 01:45 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

What I stated previously still applies, "... observations are often colored by
preconceived notions, personal desires, prejudices and biochemical/
neurological states. This is where the application of scientific methods
are of value, they can help you test your perception of experiences
and explanations you may have come up with regarding the experiences."

These principles are applicable to normal mental states as well as altered
mental states. There are certain groups of Catholic believers who 'see'
a statue of the virgin Mary crying or a crucifix bleeding. These individuals
are experiencing this reality without any outside chemical or physical
influences.The statue or crucifix can easily be tested to verify the validity
of their perceptions.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: ]
    #577865 - 03/13/02 02:14 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The analogy doesn't really work. If you assume there is no water running down the statue from some source then it isn't a repeatable verifiable fact. Mushrooms or ayahuasca produce scientifically repeatable experiences accessible to pretty much everyone whenever they so desire. That isn't the same as one person saying they can see something that most people can't.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Xlea321]
    #578252 - 03/14/02 12:01 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Alex123:
"The analogy doesn't really work. If you assume there is no water running
down the statue from some source then it isn't a repeatable verifiable fact."


I'm not sure what you mean. The point of the example was merely to illustrate
that you should apply the same principles to a 'normal' mental condition, not
only altered states of consciousness. This was in reference to your earlier
statements:
"This assumes that you know the model you are "distorting" it from has
anymore validity than the "distorted" state. We don't."

-----

Alex123:
"Mushrooms or ayahuasca produce scientifically repeatable experiences
accessible to pretty much everyone whenever they so desire"


Yes, most pharmacological substances produce scientifically repeatable
experiences. Are you suggesting that because of this, those experiences
should be the basis of an individual's belief system? Putting electrodes in
certain areas of a person's cerebral cortex will cause that individual to
'hear' a sound. This could be repeated with other humans as well. Is the
sound that these people experience actually there?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: ]
    #578355 - 03/14/02 02:27 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The point of the example was merely to illustrate
that you should apply the same principles to a 'normal' mental condition

Yes but we're not talking about lunatics with mental conditions. We're talking about sane people.

I'm not saying it should be the basis of your belief system, i'm saying you should look at what we have available and make your own mind up. No scientist has the foggiest clue about why life exists, why consciousness exists, why the universe exists. They don't even begin to address the question. Meanwhile we have a very mysterious 13 billion cell structure in our heads that has a scientifically repeatable structured experience stored somewhere in it that offers knowledge which is accessible by mushrooms. Now you can either write that off as "It's all an accident, a hallucination", just like the universe was just an accident and life was just an accident and consciousness was just an accident. Or you can realise that perhaps human beings havn't worked out all the answers to the universe in 400 years.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinepoopship
newbie
Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 25
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: ]
    #579068 - 03/14/02 09:03 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

evolving
i first of all, please accept my apology for anything i implied about you, you're right, i don't know you (for all i know you're a 12 year-old french girl!). i guess i've just been cooped up in the house for too long with nobody to talk to for a few days, so my rants were a little on the fiesty side. anyhow, i do wish to offer an apology. now, back to the "argument"...
here is where i am coming from: science has enabled us to make progress in many areas that were unthinkable even just a century ago. these advancements have had some impact, positive and negative, on our lifestyles. thats all fine and dandy. but for somebody to argue against things because they can't be tested with the scientific method involves no less faith than any other individual's faith system. if one argues that only things that can be measured using the scientific principle (i.e. physical things) then that person has a faith in materialism. materialism can't be proven with science, because those are exactly the bounds of science. therefore, one must recognize the limitations of the system they are using. using science, we cannot answer "why" questions, only "how" questions. thus, to say that, just because we can't find certain answers with science, they can't be found at all, is to completely leave out all kinds of exploring you can do beyond the bounds of logic and reason. take meditation for example. "the proof is in the pudding" my hinduism professor would say. its an endeavor that is right there for you to practice and experience for yourself, revealing many things that can't be touched with science, only pure experience. well, thats how i see it anyway. your criticism of this is welcome

all aboard
poopship


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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
enthusiast
Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 200
Last seen: 19 years, 18 days
Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #584436 - 03/20/02 06:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)





That is all fine, but the idea MUST originate from somewhere and have some compelling reason to adopt such an outlook. I wasn't talking about proving, but in basing one's outlook and approach to life on something ephemeral.

It would be nice, aye? IF you want the source, you'll have to look for it in your own way. Yes, it would be. There many ways to feel and experience. It really depends on the person's level of understanding to express them as best as she/he can. Hopefully, people gradually refine it from maturity, see with clarity for what it is or not.

**I see it as remembering the 'ephemeral' moments as timeless to me.

[]bIf it is just parroting what you were taught in church/temple or book; if you are merely adopting another's view, to me that is a sign of weaknes and laziness.

Nope, it is not. I rarely see any material about "Souls" in the religions I've seen here. I don't see it as a weakness if adopting views will help the person. It's only clinging to or using defective views is problematic.

I can go with that, but others have talked about highly SPECIFIC communication which is what I challenged.

I'm out of the loop here. I could see that personal specifics are the domain of the communicators. Any details outside is debatable.

Here you are incorrectly identifying science with the brain-washing that goes on in medical schools and institutions. Yes, science is taught there, but so are prevailing and limiting attitudes which have nothing to do with science, but social acceptance and in maintaining the "priesthood" status of being a doctor.

Ahh, but they're trained one way logically. I do not mean it as brain-washing, more limited, through training, their style of providing medical care. All I can say they suck in the intuitive department.

However, note that western science is generally FAR more efficacious in treating trauma and illness than your local "intuitive" shaman (entheogenic or otherwise).

The people here come across as neither more nor less advanced than any other group of people that I have met. (see my second quote.)


Our health care system sucks lemons [Canada]. It's great for efficacy in the name of Western Science, but the problem is availability and effectiveness. Generally, when sick people are fed up with the medical community, they have no choice but to look into alternatives. It's pretty much a leap of faith since hard evidence and facts of such modalities are hard to come by. And I'm not comparing about who's better or not. It's about gifted *intuitives* I've came across. I usually agree with them instead of the docs' diagnosis. It's not that I prefer it. Those intuitives pick up facts that I already know, without me telling them.

Potential? What the hell does that mean? Where are the ACTUAL benefits? Not some maybes, mights and coulds, but some REAL postitve changes?

It means it's up to the person to cultivate it. I cannot give you a definite methodology of "How to get the benefits." The drug is just a tool. The potential can be bad or good, or both. The drug is the *potential* catalyst, while the rest of the potential really depends on the person. And what is that potential? Shortcut to SATORI.


Timeleech: You got it.. Who knows... Kundalini-powered spaceships. Chaos magick-derived warp engines. Total Psionic-driven navigation. hehe


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #584589 - 03/20/02 09:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

[bIt means it's up to the person to cultivate it. I cannot give you a definite methodology of "How to get the benefits."

Let me rephrase the question. What specific benefits have YOU gotten from your journeys? I would like to hear of something positive that affected other areas of your outward life. Not just something like, "Now I appreciate life more.", but more like "Because of my increased apprectiation for the sancitiy of life, I did or experienced such and such...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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