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skystone
stop the motion
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Divided_Sky]
#3618686 - 01/12/05 02:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Divided_Sky said: I think the faith in God version is better because it empowers a person while bypassing the role of the ego. Self-determinism can become ego-centric and result in unhappiness. True belief in God can be an empowerment of the higher self.
yes, but those are consequences that come later. In the moment of doing something it's the power of faith that matters.
-------------------- "..and suddenly it began to rain"
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
#3618888 - 01/12/05 03:28 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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"We generally have too little faith in our own abilities"
Generally is a generalization. Who do you mean by we, people in general or religious people? How are "we" to accept your vague generalization about an undefined we generally having too little undefined faith in their undefined abilities as having basis in fact?
What specific "abilities" are you referring to? Survival skills after a plane wreck in the wilderness? Task completion?
What do you mean by faith? Faith in God or faith in your own "strength" to survive being lost after the plane wreck in the wilderness?
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Generally is a generalization.
Redundancy is a redundanization. What is your point? Should I give a full synopsis on all 6 billion people and would you read it? Most all posts (yet another generalization) contain generalizations for ease of discussion.
Why not tell where you stand and what you get out of it? (and I am said to be the combative one!)
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Twirling
Barred Spiral
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Quote:
ld50negative1 said: It's not about surviving physically, it's about overcoming the shit that this world throws at a Christian... it has never been about making money, winning a prize, picking up a 10000 lb trailer, making good grades.... it's about doing what is right... it's about keeping the faith when people like you try to think my faith away
I can't really speak for Swami, but I think what you're describing is faith in a theological sense. Swami is referring to people putting faith in a higher being to make them able to do things in the secular world. There's a difference between the two.
For example, having faith in a God as a way to view life versus having faith that God will give you an A on your mid-term.
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dorkus
don't look back
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Twirling]
#3619128 - 01/12/05 04:07 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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it's all about securing a ticket to heaven thus avoiding eternal suffering in hell, isn't it?
A christian could easily dismiss this thread as irrelevant. SHe could point out that faith in jc and the big man is not supposed to help in this life. It is a longtime investment.
gotta please the prankster.
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skystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: dorkus]
#3619216 - 01/12/05 04:19 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_mandelbrot said: it's all about securing a ticket to heaven thus avoiding eternal suffering in hell, isn't it?
A christian could easily dismiss this thread as irrelevant. SHe could point out that faith in jc and the big man is not supposed to help in this life. It is a longtime investment.
gotta please the prankster.
Most christians I have ever seen don't REALLY believe in eternal life. I mean they believe it on the surface, and If you ask them they'll say of course, and they'll mean it too, but deep inside there is still that fear of death, not just instinct, but fear of being dead... And it is suprizing how many christians use the argument: "but he does not feel anything, he is dead, not consciouss" in discussions.
I think they can't picture the idea of life after death.
I think very few people actually see death as another event in life.
Death is like a taboo, people that think like "ok I'll try this, I'll try that, and If nothing works I'll just have to die, o whell.." are extreamly rare
-------------------- "..and suddenly it began to rain"
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deff
just love everyone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
#3619593 - 01/12/05 05:27 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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In the sense of a personal, seperate-from-self God, I completely agree.
But the term has grown way too vague. We have people who view an hypothesized sole creator of existance as god, we have those who seperate existance's creation into categories with 'sub-gods', those who view God as a symbol representing the all-that-is, the unknowable unabstracted universe as a single living entity, personal or transpersonal, ect...
For many it appears to be a crutch though. Like, "I can't take all of this stress, help me God!". This kind of stuff dates way back to sacrafices to ensure the Gods treated humans well, in harvest quantities and tons of other stuff. To me, this appears superstitous, but when seemingly factual evidence is not available, many people would rather make-believe than live with the unknown.
But - the power is definitely inside every single human to amaze themselves with their own abilities beyond their wildest dreams. I'm talking fullforce reality creation, physical-mind manipulation, amazing creativity, and equally amazing physical abilities.
This in essences boils down to positive thought (your favourite ), wherein the thought itself does not change anything, but the previous disbelief or negative thought hindered things. It's more about shedding what is holding us back than actually gaining anything more.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
#3619687 - 01/12/05 05:48 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: This was not started with a "why people believe" discussion in mind, but more of "an atheist with strong self belief can do ANYTHING a believer in God can do".
If this is true, then what is the difference in this life? If this is not true, then what task can a believer accomplish that an atheist could not?
Communicate with God of course.
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skystone
stop the motion
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: deff]
#3620013 - 01/12/05 06:53 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said: In the sense of a personal, seperate-from-self God, I completely agree.
But the term has grown way too vague. We have people who view an hypothesized sole creator of existance as god, we have those who seperate existance's creation into categories with 'sub-gods', those who view God as a symbol representing the all-that-is, the unknowable unabstracted universe as a single living entity, personal or transpersonal, ect...
For many it appears to be a crutch though. Like, "I can't take all of this stress, help me God!". This kind of stuff dates way back to sacrafices to ensure the Gods treated humans well, in harvest quantities and tons of other stuff. To me, this appears superstitous, but when seemingly factual evidence is not available, many people would rather make-believe than live with the unknown.
But - the power is definitely inside every single human to amaze themselves with their own abilities beyond their wildest dreams. I'm talking fullforce reality creation, physical-mind manipulation, amazing creativity, and equally amazing physical abilities.
This in essences boils down to positive thought (your favourite ), wherein the thought itself does not change anything, but the previous disbelief or negative thought hindered things. It's more about shedding what is holding us back than actually gaining anything more.
were you responding to my first post about god being everything including the survival instincts?
-------------------- "..and suddenly it began to rain"
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Zekebomb
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
#3620072 - 01/12/05 06:59 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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the mother who lifts the car off her 2-year-old could only do it because she believed in Adrenaline. or if you prefer, had faith
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skystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Zekebomb]
#3620182 - 01/12/05 07:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zekebomb said: the mother who lifts the car off her 2-year-old could only do it because she believed in Adrenaline. or if you prefer, had faith
There are other things beside faith involved in such cases. Like your body is far more powerfull in such shocking situations.
But as for faith. It's not because she believes in adrenaline. It's because she believes she can do it. Power of suggestion.
You can hypnotise a man and suggest to him that he can't lift a pencil, and he won't because it will be to heavy for him.
The main reason why suggestion doesn't work so well in consciouss state of mind is because of our belief system, and the model of reality we think we live in. Because of that our rational mind filters what is illogical.
So you could say that our rational mind is the first limit of our abilities, the second limit is the actual limit made by our body or brain capabilities, but we almost never reach that limit because we only work in the limits of our rational mind.
Faith in god (or anything) bypasses this rational limit and we can then work in the actual limit of our mental or physical abilities.
-------------------- "..and suddenly it began to rain"
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Zekebomb]
#3620185 - 01/12/05 07:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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I agree that the power may already be there, but often there must be a means of tapping it. Spiritual beliefs, self confidence, and intense need are all means of accessing this power.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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deff
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
#3620287 - 01/12/05 07:37 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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skystone: nope, just to the general topic
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skystone
stop the motion
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: deff]
#3620312 - 01/12/05 07:42 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said: skystone: nope, just to the general topic
Oh, ok, you know I pay a lot of attention to what it says in the "re:name" line, so If you "Re:" me, I get the idea that you are indeed "Re:-ing" me
-------------------- "..and suddenly it began to rain"
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deff
just love everyone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
#3620462 - 01/12/05 08:14 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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whereas I don't, so it usually says the name of the poster above me
but I can see the confusion
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Zekebomb
sociophagus
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
#3620475 - 01/12/05 08:17 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
skystone said:
Quote:
Zekebomb said: the mother who lifts the car off her 2-year-old could only do it because she believed in Adrenaline. or if you prefer, had faith
There are other things beside faith involved in such cases. Like your body is far more powerfull in such shocking situations.
But as for faith. It's not because she believes in adrenaline. It's because she believes she can do it. Power of suggestion.
wow, way to not catch my sarcasm. not being able to perceive sarcasm is a very wonderful trait
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skystone
stop the motion
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Zekebomb]
#3620525 - 01/12/05 08:24 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zekebomb said:
wow, way to not catch my sarcasm. not being able to perceive sarcasm is a very wonderful trait
hehe, I don't really see why I should see it. This could have been a valid metaphore, a serious talk.. But ok, sorry...
-------------------- "..and suddenly it began to rain"
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vampirism
Stranger
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
#3620528 - 01/12/05 08:24 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Here is my contention: we generally have too little faith in our own abilities and thus create an imaginary external force or power (god) to lean on and "give us" strength. I contend the strength is already there.
And did you simply will yourself and your situation into existence? It is irrelevant whether or not a god helps us through anything if we can do it. Your contention is essentially limp in regards to a higher power- if one man says God helped him and the other does not, but they both survive- can either be said to be "weaker" ? No Basically, who cares? Two methods achieve essentially the same result and simply have a different view on the problem. edit: However, if i must actually consider your contention, How can you show the strength was already there if there is no proof that it was there ? The potential for strength is different than strength
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skystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: deff]
#3620535 - 01/12/05 08:26 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said: whereas I don't, so it usually says the name of the poster above me
but I can see the confusion
As I can see, most people here use that little function for a controled traffic around here..so don't blaim me for being confused
-------------------- "..and suddenly it began to rain"
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Zekebomb
sociophagus
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: vampirism]
#3620595 - 01/12/05 08:38 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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How can you show the strength was already there if there is no proof that it was there ?
and vice versa
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