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Offlinedeff
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3620612 - 01/12/05 08:41 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

i just say stuff as if it was an ongoing discussion, and not to a particular person

if need be, i'll quote them or whatever if it's way up in the posts

but in a normal conversation, do you make sure you indicate to whom you are addressing with each addition verbal comment? :laugh:

i kid


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: deff]
    #3620630 - 01/12/05 08:44 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

yeah, quick reply has been a source of confusion for me, and for those around me. the bane of my existence

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OfflinePed
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
    #3621548 - 01/12/05 11:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

>> Guy #1 lost in the wilderness after a plane crash: without God's help, I would have never found the strength to find my way back.

It's not necessarily a failing of one's own self-confidence to invest faith in some believed external force, like God, when confronted with this kind of situation. When we give ourselves to the order of things, when we humbly admit our own insignificance in the grand scheme of things, this helps us reduce our frantic grasping at our own life. It offers us a bit of serenity, which sustains a clear-headedness from which we derrive the confidence, method and the wisdom to survive. If it's remembering a supreme creator figure which helps us accomplish this, it's not a lack of faith in one's self. On the contrary, it is enormous internal stregnth: it takes a great degree of self-confidence to entrust one's life to the grand scheme of things, to let go of the attachment we have to our own self.

On the other end of the spectrum, some people take a stance more along these lines: "My God helped me" find my way back, because I'm so special to my God; oh how important I must be to my God, he spared me when anyone else would have surely died." This is about as foolish as thanking God for helping your team win the super bowl, as though we are of such grand importantance that the creator of the universe himself, God, has shown his allegience to this or that football club. It's when we have this kind of attitude that belief in God becomes ridiculous.


>> Guy #2 lost in the wilderness after a plane crash: I have always had faith in my ability to survive. When I set my mind to do a task, I will finish it no matter what.

It's not necessarily a testament to one's own courage and solidarity to accredit one's self for survival, as opposed to accrediting a creator figure. Some people, in identifying themselves as their own rescuer, take a stance along these lines: "Oh, how strong I am. I must be like He-Man, to have endured such a crash and still have the power to make my way to civilization." A man with such an attitude would have a difficult time finding an audience to tell his tale. It's egotism, in this case an egotism identical to boasting about one's own God, which makes makes a fool out of a hero.

Nonetheless, when we have a sense of faith in our own abilities, we are immune to the effects of fear and insecurity, which undermine our ability to manage difficult situations like being stranded in the woods after a crash. Self-reliance can be what lets us survive impossible circumstances.



>> Here is my contention: we generally have too little faith in our own abilities and thus create an imaginary external force or power (god) to lean on and "give us" strength. I contend the strength is already there.

I don't think it's necessarily true that those who entrust themselves to a creator figure lack faith in their own abilities. It's those who boast who are demonstrating a lack of faith, be them advertisers of their religious allegience or advertisers of their own power. The real differentiating factor here is humility. If there is no humility, then clearly there is no faith in one's own abilities. Whether or not an individual believes in God is irrelevant, because an individual can, without demonstrating a lack of faith in their own abilities, accredit God for helping them uncover the stregnth necessary to survive. By the same token, people who advertise their own self-reliance often have the least faith in themselves, and the least confidence in their own abilities.


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Offlineguri
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3621588 - 01/13/05 12:03 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

im suprised nobody has put a negative spin on this (besides the boxing match up earlier)

so lets say two people are selected to fight to the death (or blacked-out)

Fighter A believes in a higher power (God, Allah, whathaveyounot) gives them thier strength and says before the fight he strength is given to him by this higher god

Fighter B believes that they themselves give themselves thier own strength (self powered, like a battery) and that every that is done by himeself is of his own doing

and lets say during this fight B just kicks the living shit out A, i mean like A just got his ass beat right. but he lives

now anyways B obviously will atribute his victory to himself. But what of A, will the loss be placed upon God saying that he willed it to be so, or will he admit that he never had the power from god?

either way i believe that the man who Believes in God helping him is weaker because they are reliant upon God helping him, while fighter B would be stronger because of the self-confidence

Many (but not all i think) Theistical religeons (like christianity, Islam) seem to believe that god has a plan for people, there fore what strength can be found if you never know if that plan for you is always gonna be good? lack of confidence in one self will take away from there skill level, think about it, you see two dancers one nervous rookie and one expierenced vetern side by side, who dances better if they had equal skill level prior to the dance?


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"If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? The Beatles were so fucking high, they let Ringo sing a few songs." --Bill Hicks

Edited by guri (01/13/05 12:04 AM)

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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: guri]
    #3621649 - 01/13/05 12:19 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

breakdown what happens if A beats B

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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Ped]
    #3621799 - 01/13/05 12:53 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Humility is not decided by belief in self nor belief in deity, but from one's core. I find your picture painting to be highly biased and inaccurate. Self-reliance and confidence are desirable traits.

Man A: *shivering* I hope God makes lightning strike a tree as I am freezing.

Man B: Now I get to test the abilities I learned in the survival course in how to make a fire.

I would pick man B EVERY time.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflinePed
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
    #3622328 - 01/13/05 03:45 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

>> Humility is not decided by belief in self nor belief in deity, but from one's core. I find your picture painting to be highly biased and inaccurate. Self-reliance and confidence are desirable traits.

I don't think my point came across completely. My intention was to reframe the issue so as to clear away what I perceived as bias against theistic people.

What I meant to say was this. When someone has a belief in a deity and expresses pride in that, they are demonstrating their lack of faith. When someone has self-reliance and confidence and expresses pride in that, they are demonstrating an identical lack of faith.

It's necessary to specify what is meant by "pride". There are two kinds of pride; one is divine, and the other is childish. Divine pride recognizes the benefits of one's own abilities or accomplishments. A person with divine pride in their own self-reliance understands how this helps them benefit themselves and others, but does not conceive of themselves as superior to those who lack a sense of self-reliance. Childish pride is self-importance. Childish pride sets us apart from others; it is a mindset that sees our own good qualities as traits which qualify us as superior over others. The kind of pride I'm referring to is childish pride, the kind of pride that is antithetical to humility.

Self-reliance and confidence are of course desirable traits. It's when these traits are combined with pride that they become sour. The same is true, in my opinion, of one's religious beliefs. Belief in a creator God, though scientifically unverifyable, can help people uncover a sense of self-confidence. It's when that belief is combined with pride, with the idea that God maintains some kind of partisanship for or against people, that it becomes a sour, harmful belief.


In your analogy, Man A has placed all kinds of expectations on God. Before Man A can wish for lightening to start a fire for him, he must carry the presupposition that God has a special interest in his comfort and welfare. That is a kind of childish pride: it's narrow-minded and self-important to suppose that God can be bothered with interrupting the entire continuum of existence so as to ensure one man's comfort and safety. It's a sign of weakness to do nothing for our own survival, or to believe that we are powerless to secure it, because we expect that God will swoop in and whisk us to safety.

I would have more respect for Man B as well. Man B has the will to survive, and confidence in his ability to apply survival techniques to save his own life.

For the sake of clarity, let me propose Man C and Man D. Man C: "So this is where I've ended up. Lord, in my life I've learned that your creation is vast and good. It's my prayer that I will live long enough to appreciate it to the fullest." Man C is a religious man, but he has placed no expectations on his religious icons. It's from this patient, humble, and accepting point of view that Man C will derrive both the strength and the will to survive. There is no weakness in this.

Man D talks to news reporters about his experience: "It was cold, wet and dark, but because I am so strong, I survived. I took endurance training, y'know. Some other weakling might have perished out here -- in fact I'd bet on it. But not me, I've got what it takes to make it through anything." In this exaggerated example, Man D is a self-reliant and confident individual, but he is cocky and judgemental as well. This is weakness. A man like this, in my opinion, derserves no more respect than Man A.

In your first post, your analogy compared Man A with Man B, and concluded that reliance on an external force was what made Man B a more respectable individual. In my reply to it, I compared Man C with Man D and said that it's not reliance on an external force which makes the difference, it is the attitude behind that reliance, be it internal or external. That was my intention.


--------------------


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Offlineskystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: guri]
    #3622502 - 01/13/05 07:22 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

guri said:
im suprised nobody has put a negative spin on this (besides the boxing match up earlier)

so lets say two people are selected to fight to the death (or blacked-out)

Fighter A believes in a higher power (God, Allah, whathaveyounot) gives them thier strength and says before the fight he strength is given to him by this higher god

Fighter B believes that they themselves give themselves thier own strength (self powered, like a battery) and that every that is done by himeself is of his own doing

and lets say during this fight B just kicks the living shit out A, i mean like A just got his ass beat right. but he lives

now anyways B obviously will atribute his victory to himself. But what of A, will the loss be placed upon God saying that he willed it to be so, or will he admit that he never had the power from god?

either way i believe that the man who Believes in God helping him is weaker because they are reliant upon God helping him, while fighter B would be stronger because of the self-confidence

Many (but not all i think) Theistical religeons (like christianity, Islam) seem to believe that god has a plan for people, there fore what strength can be found if you never know if that plan for you is always gonna be good? lack of confidence in one self will take away from there skill level, think about it, you see two dancers one nervous rookie and one expierenced vetern side by side, who dances better if they had equal skill level prior to the dance?




I think it would be foolish for the one who believes in god to think
that god would help him to kill someone.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
    #3622511 - 01/13/05 07:33 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I think it would be foolish for the one who believes in god to think
that god would help him to kill someone.


What of a religious president who asks God to protect our troops while sending them into harm's way? Basically, this prayer says, "Dear God, help us to slay our enemies." Seems he is unfamiliar with the Biblical line, "He who lives by the sword (or rifle or bomb); shall die by the sword."


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlineskystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
    #3622547 - 01/13/05 07:55 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I think it would be foolish for the one who believes in god to think
that god would help him to kill someone.


What of a religious president who asks God to protect our troops while sending them into harm's way? Basically, this prayer says, "Dear God, help us to slay our enemies." Seems he is unfamiliar with the Biblical line, "He who lives by the sword (or rifle or bomb); shall die by the sword."




Yes, he is foolish too


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Offlineguri
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Registered: 01/10/04
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
    #3622742 - 01/13/05 09:29 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

um i hate to break it to you, but more people then you are i can count have been killed by people killing in gods name and the killers were hoping that god was helping them.


--------------------
"If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? The Beatles were so fucking high, they let Ringo sing a few songs." --Bill Hicks

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: guri]
    #3622756 - 01/13/05 09:33 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Think of all the people in Russia, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba and China who got killed in the name of atheism.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Offlineskystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: guri]
    #3622787 - 01/13/05 09:45 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

guri said:
um i hate to break it to you, but more people then you are i can count have been killed by people killing in gods name and the killers were hoping that god was helping them.


?

I am aware of that

You think my idea of right and wrong should change accoarding to the actions of people around me?
You think that if everyone around me kills, I should change my attitude and say "killing is normal and it's ok" because everyone is doing it?

Those who kill in the name of a god that says killing is forbiden
are foolish, no matter how many of them are there, even if they
are 99 percent of earth population.

Edited by skystone (01/13/05 09:46 AM)

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Offlineguri
Master of theimprobablitydrive

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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
    #3622835 - 01/13/05 10:14 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

hey i never said it was right either, its just how many people in lets say multi-god religeons like the greeks thought they were killing somebody because thier god wanted them to, or like the egyptians, or the ealiery mesopatomian civilizations?


--------------------
"If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? The Beatles were so fucking high, they let Ringo sing a few songs." --Bill Hicks

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Offlinedeff
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: guri]
    #3623654 - 01/13/05 02:13 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"What of a religious president who asks God to protect our troops while sending them into harm's way? Basically, this prayer says, "Dear God, help us to slay our enemies." Seems he is unfamiliar with the Biblical line, "He who lives by the sword (or rifle or bomb); shall die by the sword."

And, 'love your enemy as you love yourself' :smile:

but of course, only under certain favourable situations :wink:


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3626444 - 01/14/05 12:12 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Think of all the people in Russia, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba and China who got killed in the name of atheism.




Cambodia and Vietnam?
That had nothing to do with atheism...

And the number of people - in those other countries - who were killed in the "name" of atheism is nothing compared to the rest of human history.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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