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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
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The Power of Swami!
    #3618211 - 01/12/05 01:34 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Relax folks and put down the pitchforks. This is not an ego-based thread about how amazing I am. No, this is about the Power of Mix, of Deff, of Jiggy, of Frog, of sclorch, of fireworks_god and all the rest of you.

Here is my contention: we generally have too little faith in our own abilities and thus create an imaginary external force or power (god) to lean on and "give us" strength. I contend the strength is already there.

Guy #1 lost in the wilderness after a plane crash: without God's help, I would have never found the strength to find my way back.

Guy #2 lost in the wilderness after a plane crash: I have always had faith in my ability to survive. When I set my mind to do a task, I will finish it no matter what.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
    #3618288 - 01/12/05 01:44 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Sounds pretty spot on to me!

Theistic religion always places the emphasis of power on the external! Wihtout realizing the source of all power comes from within.

But both views require faith in an unrealistic character!


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Edited by Sinbad (01/13/05 03:50 AM)

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Offlineld50negative1
lethal dosage

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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
    #3618303 - 01/12/05 01:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

There are certainly things we do have the power to do on our own...

If I had power over my own death I would most certainly not believe in God, but alas...



everyone dies




Also, have you ever believed in God? I don't understand how you could realize that the reason someone believes in God is because they don't have self-confidence or faith in their own strength? That seems to be something very.... misconceived... the strength of God is perfected in weakness... the christian faith is about death to self so that you can live by the Spirit and finish out this life on the earth...

it aint a crutch buddy... trust me


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Edited by ld50negative1 (01/12/05 01:52 PM)

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3618321 - 01/12/05 01:50 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

everyone dies

This is an extrapolation, not a fact.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
    #3618322 - 01/12/05 01:50 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Here is my contention: we generally have too little faith in our own abilities and thus create an imaginary external force or power (god) to lean on and "give us" strength. I contend the strength is already there.




Maybe for some people, but I'm sure there are a great deal of other reasons why people believe in god.

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Offlineld50negative1
lethal dosage

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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
    #3618344 - 01/12/05 01:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
everyone dies

This is an extrapolation, not a fact.




If you are basing that on the idea that we don't ever die because we have spirits... well, then you are right on!

Show me a person that doesn't eventually rot in a grave... that is insane to say that death is not fact


your argument makes more sense in justifying an atheist than it does accusing a theist of ignorance in their own reasoning


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Edited by ld50negative1 (01/12/05 01:57 PM)

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Offlineskystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
    #3618353 - 01/12/05 01:55 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Relax folks and put down the pitchforks. This is not an ego-based thread about how amazing I am. No, this is about the Power of Mix, of Deff, of Jiggy, of Frog, of sclorch, of fireworks_god and all the rest of you.

Here is my contention: we generally have too little faith in our own abilities and thus create an imaginary external force or power (god) to lean on and "give us" strength. I contend the strength is already there.

Guy #1 lost in the wilderness after a plane crash: without God's help, I would have never found the strength to find my way back.

Guy #2 lost in the wilderness after a plane crash: I have always had faith in my ability to survive. When I set my mind to do a task, I will finish it no matter what.




Faith in god, faith in own abilities, it doesn't matter.
It's the faith that counts.

Since god is everything, faith in anything is faith in god


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3618361 - 01/12/05 01:57 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

It's not technically, but if you are going to say that "everyone dies" is not a fact then you also have to say that "heavy things fall to the ground" is not a fact, just an extrapolation.

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Offlineld50negative1
lethal dosage

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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: deafpanda]
    #3618374 - 01/12/05 01:59 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

An extrapolation would be:

If 2/5 days that I walked by Joe going to class I saw him playing frisbee and because of this I stated the extrapolation that Joe plays frisbee everyday. Do I know this for fact? No. Could it be true? Yes.

It is a FACT that objects DO fall to the ground. It is a fact that we ALL die.

This is ridiculously stupid quit trying to run in circles Swami.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: deafpanda]
    #3618449 - 01/12/05 02:13 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

This was not started with a "why people believe" discussion in mind, but more of "an atheist with strong self belief can do ANYTHING a believer in God can do".

If this is true, then what is the difference in this life? If this is not true, then what task can a believer accomplish that an atheist could not?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3618463 - 01/12/05 02:15 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

It is a FACT that objects DO fall to the ground.

*Swami releases a helium balloon*


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3618468 - 01/12/05 02:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ld50negative1 said:
It is a FACT that objects DO fall to the ground. It is a fact that we ALL die.

This is ridiculously stupid quit trying to run in circles Swami.




The 'S' in Swami stands for sarcastic, not serious.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offlineld50negative1
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
    #3618484 - 01/12/05 02:18 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
It is a FACT that objects DO fall to the ground.

*Swami releases a helium balloon*




Did I say ALL objects in ALL situations? no.

But guess what? All humans in ALL forms die.  :eek:

If Swami is ALWAYS sarcastic then why in the hell would anyone basically "worship" him because of his "myth busting". I find alot of his arguments amusing more than anything to put any money on.


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OfflineAldous
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
    #3618496 - 01/12/05 02:20 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Guy #1 lost in the wilderness after a plane crash: without God's help, I would have never found the strength to find my way back.

Guy #2 lost in the wilderness after a plane crash: I have always had faith in my ability to survive. When I set my mind to do a task, I will finish it no matter what.


Is there as much contradiction in this as you think there is?

Once again, let me go back to good ole Jung. To him, both those statements are just the same. God and the Self are just one, and everyone calls it the name of their choice, because there is just no way to know if there exists an external divine presence. Religious experience, on the other hand, has been proven to exist, but it's up to you to choose if it means contact with God or contact with the Self (which includes the personal and the collective unconscious, among other things; it's the totality of your personality, and it's way larger than your ego (well, maybe just not YOURS, Swami :wink: )). Meeting God/Self is a tremendous experience that can be achieved through religious practice, entheogens,... all kinds of things that can alter consciousness. Some people are more in need of contact with the Self than others, for some it is always there in a less dramatic fashion. But maybe believing in God or in oneself is ultimately just not THAT different...

Thoughts?

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OfflineTwirling
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3618525 - 01/12/05 02:24 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I agree about how some people feel the need to believe in a "higher power" to feel as if they are strong enough to do something.

And I think it's evolved that way culturally. Societies which believed in a higher power being on their side probably had a better chance of survival since it's a matter of self-fullfilling prophecy.

The downside is that some people believe so strongly in it that they don't put any effort into what they want to accomplish and expect a "God" to do it for them. Then they get angery at "God" when it doesn't come through.


It's interesting, one of the few times I did mushrooms I expected to have a lot of answers about theological questions to come up. At that time in my life, I was living in hope of destiny saving me from having little ways to accomplish what my dreams were. My personal illusion of having some kind of destiny which will fullfill my dreams was because I was too afraid to try myself. To be blunt, I got my ass kicked. That illusion was blown apart as I realized how many people are born into horrible, awful conditions they have no control over. So many people in the world have lived a miserable life without "deserving" it. Why should a "God" hand me my dreams when so many people in the world can't get the basics? I feel entitled to clean water because it's readily available on tap, but that's not even an option in many places.


It was an incrediably painful experience. Ironically, I prayed to every deity out there even though I didn't believe in any of them. I just wanted the pain to end. After awhile, I decided to try and sleep it through and as I was starting to drift off, I suddendly sobered up out of nowhere.

I was left fragile and scared. I felt so shattered. The next day I went to work and saw how amazing it is that we're able to do as much as we can considering how tough life can be. I started to apperiate that I had the ability to positively affect my own destiny instead of fearing it.

I subconsciously looked to mushrooms as my higher power. Psilocybin and my brain gave me exactly what I needed.... even if "they" didn't do it as some kind of deity or supernatural being.


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Aldous]
    #3618572 - 01/12/05 02:32 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Here you are interchanging the words "God" with "Self". Seems you are playing with labels. I am talking about the small "self", not any kind of "ground of being" mysticism.

I was once stranded in the desert when my car being towed came off the hitch. I waited for hours with not a car in sight. Finally I decided I had to do something. I picked up the trailer with the car still on it and dropped it on the hitch. My hands were cut and bleeding and I figure I conservatively pulled about 500 pounds (I weighed about 170 pounds). That is faith in self (not Self).

There was a recent TV show featuring young boxing hopefuls. The guy that won the prize money and contract said it was thanks to Jesus (didn't know he was a fight fan!). Another boxer said he would win because Allah willed it. When he lost, it was Allah's will that he choose another path. I would contend that the fighter with the best genetics, training and understanding to the sport will win and that no deity is involved.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlineskystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Twirling]
    #3618604 - 01/12/05 02:37 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

What is important in the process of believing is not who will do it,
but that fact that it will be done.

If an atheist believes he will survive in the jungle because
of his abilities, and a god-believer that he is going to survive because of god, it's the same.

Because the parts "because of his abilities" and "because of god"
are not important, you could put anything on this place.

What is important is that both of them believe they are going to survive for whatever reason.

Both of them have thier own religion, and both of them find use in it.

but if you analize it a bit deeper, both beliefs are the same..

Atheist believes he is strong enough for it, and that every lush environment has something to eat and dring etc.

The one that believes in god, believes that god will help him,
but how can god help him? By creating a universe in wich there
is a chance for him.

So it's kind of the same thing.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Offlineld50negative1
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Twirling]
    #3618643 - 01/12/05 02:41 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

What I'm getting from all this is that those that don't believe in (THE) God are the ones that are looking to use God as a crutch. If they ever did try to approach Christ/God with selfishness they aren't going to get an answer. Is there anything wrong with death to self? If a person gives death to self and walks "the path" through the Spirit then they are NOT going to have shattered, torn, or (whatever you are talking about), strength/confidence. This is why it is not simply a crutch.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
    #3618657 - 01/12/05 02:42 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I think the faith in God version is better because it empowers a person while bypassing the role of the ego. Self-determinism can become ego-centric and result in unhappiness. True belief in God can be an empowerment of the higher self.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Offlineld50negative1
lethal dosage

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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3618679 - 01/12/05 02:44 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


There was a recent TV show featuring young boxing hopefuls. The guy that won the prize money and contract said it was thanks to Jesus (didn't know he was a fight fan!). Another boxer said he would win because Allah willed it. When he lost, it was Allah's will that he choose another path. I would contend that the fighter with the best genetics, training and understanding to the sport will win and that no deity is involved.





? I don't get the purpose of the story as it relates to the orginal idea of this thread... but...

Swami, no one ever said that you can't do crazy things like that without faith in God.

It's not about surviving physically, it's about overcoming the shit that this world throws at a Christian... it has never been about making money, winning a prize, picking up a 10000 lb trailer, making good grades.... it's about doing what is right... it's about keeping the faith when people like you try to think my faith away


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Offlineskystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3618686 - 01/12/05 02:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
I think the faith in God version is better because it empowers a person while bypassing the role of the ego. Self-determinism can become ego-centric and result in unhappiness. True belief in God can be an empowerment of the higher self.




yes, but those are consequences that come later.
In the moment of doing something it's the power of faith that matters.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
    #3618888 - 01/12/05 03:28 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"We generally have too little faith in our own abilities"

Generally is a generalization. Who do you mean by we, people in general or religious people? How are "we" to accept your vague generalization about an undefined we generally having too little undefined faith in their undefined abilities as having basis in fact?

What specific "abilities" are you referring to? Survival skills after a plane wreck in the wilderness? Task completion?

What do you mean by faith? Faith in God or faith in your own "strength" to survive being lost after the plane wreck in the wilderness?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3618928 - 01/12/05 03:36 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Generally is a generalization.

Redundancy is a redundanization. What is your point? Should I give a full synopsis on all 6 billion people and would you read it? Most all posts (yet another generalization) contain generalizations for ease of discussion.

Why not tell where you stand and what you get out of it? (and I am said to be the combative one!)


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineTwirling
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: ld50negative1]
    #3619011 - 01/12/05 03:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ld50negative1 said:
It's not about surviving physically, it's about overcoming the shit that this world throws at a Christian... it has never been about making money, winning a prize, picking up a 10000 lb trailer, making good grades.... it's about doing what is right... it's about keeping the faith when people like you try to think my faith away




I can't really speak for Swami, but I think what you're describing is faith in a theological sense. Swami is referring to people putting faith in a higher being to make them able to do things in the secular world. There's a difference between the two.

For example, having faith in a God as a way to view life versus having faith that God will give you an A on your mid-term.

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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Twirling]
    #3619128 - 01/12/05 04:07 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

it's all about securing a ticket to heaven thus avoiding eternal suffering in hell, isn't it?

A christian could easily dismiss this thread as irrelevant. SHe could point out that faith in jc and the big man is not supposed to help in this life. It is a longtime investment.

gotta please the prankster.

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Offlineskystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: dorkus]
    #3619216 - 01/12/05 04:19 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
it's all about securing a ticket to heaven thus avoiding eternal suffering in hell, isn't it?

A christian could easily dismiss this thread as irrelevant. SHe could point out that faith in jc and the big man is not supposed to help in this life. It is a longtime investment.

gotta please the prankster.




Most christians I have ever seen don't REALLY believe in eternal life. I mean they believe it on the surface, and If you ask them
they'll say of course, and they'll mean it too, but
deep inside there is still that fear of death, not just instinct,
but fear of being dead...
And it is suprizing how many christians use the argument:
"but he does not feel anything, he is dead, not consciouss" in discussions.

I think they can't picture the idea of life after death.

I think very few people actually see death as another event in life.

Death is like a taboo, people that think like "ok I'll try this, I'll try that, and If nothing works I'll just have to die, o whell.."
are extreamly rare


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Offlinedeff
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
    #3619593 - 01/12/05 05:27 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In the sense of a personal, seperate-from-self God, I completely agree.

But the term has grown way too vague. We have people who view an hypothesized sole creator of existance as god, we have those who seperate existance's creation into categories with 'sub-gods', those who view God as a symbol representing the all-that-is, the unknowable unabstracted universe as a single living entity, personal or transpersonal, ect...

For many it appears to be a crutch though. Like, "I can't take all of this stress, help me God!". This kind of stuff dates way back to sacrafices to ensure the Gods treated humans well, in harvest quantities and tons of other stuff. To me, this appears superstitous, but when seemingly factual evidence is not available, many people would rather make-believe than live with the unknown.

But - the power is definitely inside every single human to amaze themselves with their own abilities beyond their wildest dreams. I'm talking fullforce reality creation, physical-mind manipulation, amazing creativity, and equally amazing physical abilities.

This in essences boils down to positive thought (your favourite :smile:), wherein the thought itself does not change anything, but the previous disbelief or negative thought hindered things. It's more about shedding what is holding us back than actually gaining anything more.

:cool:


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
    #3619687 - 01/12/05 05:48 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
This was not started with a "why people believe" discussion in mind, but more of "an atheist with strong self belief can do ANYTHING a believer in God can do".

If this is true, then what is the difference in this life? If this is not true, then what task can a believer accomplish that an atheist could not?




Communicate with God of course. :cool:

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Offlineskystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: deff]
    #3620013 - 01/12/05 06:53 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
In the sense of a personal, seperate-from-self God, I completely agree.

But the term has grown way too vague. We have people who view an hypothesized sole creator of existance as god, we have those who seperate existance's creation into categories with 'sub-gods', those who view God as a symbol representing the all-that-is, the unknowable unabstracted universe as a single living entity, personal or transpersonal, ect...

For many it appears to be a crutch though. Like, "I can't take all of this stress, help me God!". This kind of stuff dates way back to sacrafices to ensure the Gods treated humans well, in harvest quantities and tons of other stuff. To me, this appears superstitous, but when seemingly factual evidence is not available, many people would rather make-believe than live with the unknown.

But - the power is definitely inside every single human to amaze themselves with their own abilities beyond their wildest dreams. I'm talking fullforce reality creation, physical-mind manipulation, amazing creativity, and equally amazing physical abilities.

This in essences boils down to positive thought (your favourite :smile:), wherein the thought itself does not change anything, but the previous disbelief or negative thought hindered things. It's more about shedding what is holding us back than actually gaining anything more.

:cool:




were you responding to my first post about god being everything including the survival instincts?


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
    #3620072 - 01/12/05 06:59 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

the mother who lifts the car off her 2-year-old could only do it because she believed in Adrenaline. or if you prefer, had faith

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Offlineskystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3620182 - 01/12/05 07:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Zekebomb said:
the mother who lifts the car off her 2-year-old could only do it because she believed in Adrenaline. or if you prefer, had faith




There are other things beside faith involved in such cases.
Like your body is far more powerfull in such shocking situations.

But as for faith. It's not because she believes in adrenaline.
It's because she believes she can do it.
Power of suggestion.

You can hypnotise a man and suggest to him that he can't lift
a pencil, and he won't because it will be to heavy for him.

The main reason why suggestion doesn't work so well in consciouss state of mind is because of our belief system, and the model of reality we think we live in. Because of that our rational mind filters
what is illogical.

So you could say that our rational mind is the first limit of our abilities, the second limit is the actual limit made by our body or
brain capabilities, but we almost never reach that limit because
we only work in the limits of our rational mind.

Faith in god (or anything) bypasses this rational limit and we can then work
in the actual limit of our mental or physical abilities.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3620185 - 01/12/05 07:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I agree that the power may already be there, but often there must be a means of tapping it. Spiritual beliefs, self confidence, and intense need are all means of accessing this power.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
    #3620287 - 01/12/05 07:37 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

skystone: nope, just to the general topic :smile:


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Offlineskystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: deff]
    #3620312 - 01/12/05 07:42 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
skystone: nope, just to the general topic :smile:




Oh, ok, you know I pay a lot of attention to what it says in the
"re:name" line, so If you "Re:" me, I get the idea that you are indeed "Re:-ing" me


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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
    #3620462 - 01/12/05 08:14 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

whereas I don't, so it usually says the name of the poster above me :laugh:

but I can see the confusion


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
    #3620475 - 01/12/05 08:17 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

skystone said:
Quote:

Zekebomb said:
the mother who lifts the car off her 2-year-old could only do it because she believed in Adrenaline. or if you prefer, had faith




There are other things beside faith involved in such cases.
Like your body is far more powerfull in such shocking situations.

But as for faith. It's not because she believes in adrenaline.
It's because she believes she can do it.
Power of suggestion.




wow, way to not catch my sarcasm. not being able to perceive sarcasm is a very wonderful trait

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Offlineskystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3620525 - 01/12/05 08:24 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Zekebomb said:

wow, way to not catch my sarcasm. not being able to perceive sarcasm is a very wonderful trait




hehe, I don't really see why I should see it. This could have been
a valid metaphore, a serious talk..
But ok, sorry...


--------------------
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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
    #3620528 - 01/12/05 08:24 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Here is my contention: we generally have too little faith in our own abilities and thus create an imaginary external force or power (god) to lean on and "give us" strength. I contend the strength is already there.




And did you simply will yourself and your situation into existence?

It is irrelevant whether or not a god helps us through anything if we can do it. Your contention is essentially limp in regards to a higher power- if one man says God helped him and the other does not, but they both survive- can either be said to be "weaker" ? No

Basically, who cares? Two methods achieve essentially the same result and simply have a different view on the problem.


edit: However, if i must actually consider your contention, How can you show the strength was already there if there is no proof that it was there ? The potential for strength is different than strength

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Offlineskystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: deff]
    #3620535 - 01/12/05 08:26 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
whereas I don't, so it usually says the name of the poster above me :laugh:

but I can see the confusion




As I can see, most people here use that little function for
a controled traffic around here..so don't blaim me for being confused


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: vampirism]
    #3620595 - 01/12/05 08:38 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

How can you show the strength was already there if there is no proof that it was there ?

and vice versa

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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3620612 - 01/12/05 08:41 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

i just say stuff as if it was an ongoing discussion, and not to a particular person

if need be, i'll quote them or whatever if it's way up in the posts

but in a normal conversation, do you make sure you indicate to whom you are addressing with each addition verbal comment? :laugh:

i kid


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: deff]
    #3620630 - 01/12/05 08:44 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

yeah, quick reply has been a source of confusion for me, and for those around me. the bane of my existence

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OfflinePed
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
    #3621548 - 01/12/05 11:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

>> Guy #1 lost in the wilderness after a plane crash: without God's help, I would have never found the strength to find my way back.

It's not necessarily a failing of one's own self-confidence to invest faith in some believed external force, like God, when confronted with this kind of situation. When we give ourselves to the order of things, when we humbly admit our own insignificance in the grand scheme of things, this helps us reduce our frantic grasping at our own life. It offers us a bit of serenity, which sustains a clear-headedness from which we derrive the confidence, method and the wisdom to survive. If it's remembering a supreme creator figure which helps us accomplish this, it's not a lack of faith in one's self. On the contrary, it is enormous internal stregnth: it takes a great degree of self-confidence to entrust one's life to the grand scheme of things, to let go of the attachment we have to our own self.

On the other end of the spectrum, some people take a stance more along these lines: "My God helped me" find my way back, because I'm so special to my God; oh how important I must be to my God, he spared me when anyone else would have surely died." This is about as foolish as thanking God for helping your team win the super bowl, as though we are of such grand importantance that the creator of the universe himself, God, has shown his allegience to this or that football club. It's when we have this kind of attitude that belief in God becomes ridiculous.


>> Guy #2 lost in the wilderness after a plane crash: I have always had faith in my ability to survive. When I set my mind to do a task, I will finish it no matter what.

It's not necessarily a testament to one's own courage and solidarity to accredit one's self for survival, as opposed to accrediting a creator figure. Some people, in identifying themselves as their own rescuer, take a stance along these lines: "Oh, how strong I am. I must be like He-Man, to have endured such a crash and still have the power to make my way to civilization." A man with such an attitude would have a difficult time finding an audience to tell his tale. It's egotism, in this case an egotism identical to boasting about one's own God, which makes makes a fool out of a hero.

Nonetheless, when we have a sense of faith in our own abilities, we are immune to the effects of fear and insecurity, which undermine our ability to manage difficult situations like being stranded in the woods after a crash. Self-reliance can be what lets us survive impossible circumstances.



>> Here is my contention: we generally have too little faith in our own abilities and thus create an imaginary external force or power (god) to lean on and "give us" strength. I contend the strength is already there.

I don't think it's necessarily true that those who entrust themselves to a creator figure lack faith in their own abilities. It's those who boast who are demonstrating a lack of faith, be them advertisers of their religious allegience or advertisers of their own power. The real differentiating factor here is humility. If there is no humility, then clearly there is no faith in one's own abilities. Whether or not an individual believes in God is irrelevant, because an individual can, without demonstrating a lack of faith in their own abilities, accredit God for helping them uncover the stregnth necessary to survive. By the same token, people who advertise their own self-reliance often have the least faith in themselves, and the least confidence in their own abilities.


--------------------


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Offlineguri
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3621588 - 01/13/05 12:03 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

im suprised nobody has put a negative spin on this (besides the boxing match up earlier)

so lets say two people are selected to fight to the death (or blacked-out)

Fighter A believes in a higher power (God, Allah, whathaveyounot) gives them thier strength and says before the fight he strength is given to him by this higher god

Fighter B believes that they themselves give themselves thier own strength (self powered, like a battery) and that every that is done by himeself is of his own doing

and lets say during this fight B just kicks the living shit out A, i mean like A just got his ass beat right. but he lives

now anyways B obviously will atribute his victory to himself. But what of A, will the loss be placed upon God saying that he willed it to be so, or will he admit that he never had the power from god?

either way i believe that the man who Believes in God helping him is weaker because they are reliant upon God helping him, while fighter B would be stronger because of the self-confidence

Many (but not all i think) Theistical religeons (like christianity, Islam) seem to believe that god has a plan for people, there fore what strength can be found if you never know if that plan for you is always gonna be good? lack of confidence in one self will take away from there skill level, think about it, you see two dancers one nervous rookie and one expierenced vetern side by side, who dances better if they had equal skill level prior to the dance?


--------------------
"If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? The Beatles were so fucking high, they let Ringo sing a few songs." --Bill Hicks

Edited by guri (01/13/05 12:04 AM)

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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: guri]
    #3621649 - 01/13/05 12:19 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

breakdown what happens if A beats B

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Ped]
    #3621799 - 01/13/05 12:53 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Humility is not decided by belief in self nor belief in deity, but from one's core. I find your picture painting to be highly biased and inaccurate. Self-reliance and confidence are desirable traits.

Man A: *shivering* I hope God makes lightning strike a tree as I am freezing.

Man B: Now I get to test the abilities I learned in the survival course in how to make a fire.

I would pick man B EVERY time.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
    #3622328 - 01/13/05 03:45 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

>> Humility is not decided by belief in self nor belief in deity, but from one's core. I find your picture painting to be highly biased and inaccurate. Self-reliance and confidence are desirable traits.

I don't think my point came across completely. My intention was to reframe the issue so as to clear away what I perceived as bias against theistic people.

What I meant to say was this. When someone has a belief in a deity and expresses pride in that, they are demonstrating their lack of faith. When someone has self-reliance and confidence and expresses pride in that, they are demonstrating an identical lack of faith.

It's necessary to specify what is meant by "pride". There are two kinds of pride; one is divine, and the other is childish. Divine pride recognizes the benefits of one's own abilities or accomplishments. A person with divine pride in their own self-reliance understands how this helps them benefit themselves and others, but does not conceive of themselves as superior to those who lack a sense of self-reliance. Childish pride is self-importance. Childish pride sets us apart from others; it is a mindset that sees our own good qualities as traits which qualify us as superior over others. The kind of pride I'm referring to is childish pride, the kind of pride that is antithetical to humility.

Self-reliance and confidence are of course desirable traits. It's when these traits are combined with pride that they become sour. The same is true, in my opinion, of one's religious beliefs. Belief in a creator God, though scientifically unverifyable, can help people uncover a sense of self-confidence. It's when that belief is combined with pride, with the idea that God maintains some kind of partisanship for or against people, that it becomes a sour, harmful belief.


In your analogy, Man A has placed all kinds of expectations on God. Before Man A can wish for lightening to start a fire for him, he must carry the presupposition that God has a special interest in his comfort and welfare. That is a kind of childish pride: it's narrow-minded and self-important to suppose that God can be bothered with interrupting the entire continuum of existence so as to ensure one man's comfort and safety. It's a sign of weakness to do nothing for our own survival, or to believe that we are powerless to secure it, because we expect that God will swoop in and whisk us to safety.

I would have more respect for Man B as well. Man B has the will to survive, and confidence in his ability to apply survival techniques to save his own life.

For the sake of clarity, let me propose Man C and Man D. Man C: "So this is where I've ended up. Lord, in my life I've learned that your creation is vast and good. It's my prayer that I will live long enough to appreciate it to the fullest." Man C is a religious man, but he has placed no expectations on his religious icons. It's from this patient, humble, and accepting point of view that Man C will derrive both the strength and the will to survive. There is no weakness in this.

Man D talks to news reporters about his experience: "It was cold, wet and dark, but because I am so strong, I survived. I took endurance training, y'know. Some other weakling might have perished out here -- in fact I'd bet on it. But not me, I've got what it takes to make it through anything." In this exaggerated example, Man D is a self-reliant and confident individual, but he is cocky and judgemental as well. This is weakness. A man like this, in my opinion, derserves no more respect than Man A.

In your first post, your analogy compared Man A with Man B, and concluded that reliance on an external force was what made Man B a more respectable individual. In my reply to it, I compared Man C with Man D and said that it's not reliance on an external force which makes the difference, it is the attitude behind that reliance, be it internal or external. That was my intention.


--------------------


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Offlineskystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: guri]
    #3622502 - 01/13/05 07:22 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

guri said:
im suprised nobody has put a negative spin on this (besides the boxing match up earlier)

so lets say two people are selected to fight to the death (or blacked-out)

Fighter A believes in a higher power (God, Allah, whathaveyounot) gives them thier strength and says before the fight he strength is given to him by this higher god

Fighter B believes that they themselves give themselves thier own strength (self powered, like a battery) and that every that is done by himeself is of his own doing

and lets say during this fight B just kicks the living shit out A, i mean like A just got his ass beat right. but he lives

now anyways B obviously will atribute his victory to himself. But what of A, will the loss be placed upon God saying that he willed it to be so, or will he admit that he never had the power from god?

either way i believe that the man who Believes in God helping him is weaker because they are reliant upon God helping him, while fighter B would be stronger because of the self-confidence

Many (but not all i think) Theistical religeons (like christianity, Islam) seem to believe that god has a plan for people, there fore what strength can be found if you never know if that plan for you is always gonna be good? lack of confidence in one self will take away from there skill level, think about it, you see two dancers one nervous rookie and one expierenced vetern side by side, who dances better if they had equal skill level prior to the dance?




I think it would be foolish for the one who believes in god to think
that god would help him to kill someone.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
    #3622511 - 01/13/05 07:33 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I think it would be foolish for the one who believes in god to think
that god would help him to kill someone.


What of a religious president who asks God to protect our troops while sending them into harm's way? Basically, this prayer says, "Dear God, help us to slay our enemies." Seems he is unfamiliar with the Biblical line, "He who lives by the sword (or rifle or bomb); shall die by the sword."


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlineskystone
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Swami]
    #3622547 - 01/13/05 07:55 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I think it would be foolish for the one who believes in god to think
that god would help him to kill someone.


What of a religious president who asks God to protect our troops while sending them into harm's way? Basically, this prayer says, "Dear God, help us to slay our enemies." Seems he is unfamiliar with the Biblical line, "He who lives by the sword (or rifle or bomb); shall die by the sword."




Yes, he is foolish too


--------------------
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Offlineguri
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
    #3622742 - 01/13/05 09:29 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

um i hate to break it to you, but more people then you are i can count have been killed by people killing in gods name and the killers were hoping that god was helping them.


--------------------
"If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? The Beatles were so fucking high, they let Ringo sing a few songs." --Bill Hicks

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: guri]
    #3622756 - 01/13/05 09:33 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Think of all the people in Russia, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba and China who got killed in the name of atheism.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: guri]
    #3622787 - 01/13/05 09:45 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

guri said:
um i hate to break it to you, but more people then you are i can count have been killed by people killing in gods name and the killers were hoping that god was helping them.


?

I am aware of that

You think my idea of right and wrong should change accoarding to the actions of people around me?
You think that if everyone around me kills, I should change my attitude and say "killing is normal and it's ok" because everyone is doing it?

Those who kill in the name of a god that says killing is forbiden
are foolish, no matter how many of them are there, even if they
are 99 percent of earth population.

Edited by skystone (01/13/05 09:46 AM)

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Offlineguri
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: skystone]
    #3622835 - 01/13/05 10:14 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

hey i never said it was right either, its just how many people in lets say multi-god religeons like the greeks thought they were killing somebody because thier god wanted them to, or like the egyptians, or the ealiery mesopatomian civilizations?


--------------------
"If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? The Beatles were so fucking high, they let Ringo sing a few songs." --Bill Hicks

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Offlinedeff
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: guri]
    #3623654 - 01/13/05 02:13 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"What of a religious president who asks God to protect our troops while sending them into harm's way? Basically, this prayer says, "Dear God, help us to slay our enemies." Seems he is unfamiliar with the Biblical line, "He who lives by the sword (or rifle or bomb); shall die by the sword."

And, 'love your enemy as you love yourself' :smile:

but of course, only under certain favourable situations :wink:


--------------------


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Power of Swami! [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3626444 - 01/14/05 12:12 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Think of all the people in Russia, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba and China who got killed in the name of atheism.




Cambodia and Vietnam?
That had nothing to do with atheism...

And the number of people - in those other countries - who were killed in the "name" of atheism is nothing compared to the rest of human history.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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