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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: deff]
    #2809994 - 06/20/04 12:43 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Karma ain't got nothing to do with revenge. It means when you send it out it always comes back. My example was a humerous simplification. Piss poor human beings establish negative emotional bank accounts with so many people that eventually the poor life they lead comes to haunt them. Another example is that if you don't maintain your car it breaks down frequently and becomes unreliable. You don't need reincarnation to have karma. It is the law of the jungle.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2810013 - 06/20/04 12:48 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

*Swami bows humbly to a worthy adversary*

I only bark, but do not bite. I think most would be shocked to find that I do not argue in "real-life". Only had one fight with my last girlfriend of many years and only when she was incredibly stressed out. And no, I did not dominate or intimidate her (hard to do against a PhD in family counseling anyhow - bet that surprises Markos, heh! heh!), but treated her as an equal.

Will tackle your post when I am not in a silly mood. Wait, that could be a good long while.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Frog]
    #2810034 - 06/20/04 12:56 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I believe the sun revolves around the earth, even though I can't see it when it is on the other side of the planet.



Still skeptical about the whole Galileo thing?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2810191 - 06/20/04 02:18 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Swami said:Ah, a poster with some balls! Er, I mean, some ovaries!

And they're armed and dangerous...  :grin:

No, but by inference, you can see sunlight reflected from the moon and you may travel and note that the sun also shines on other parts of the world though at different times. This is evidentiary unlike a standard belief system.

Actually, I made a mistake.  The earth revolves around the sun.  Swami, I can't believe you let me get away with that one.  :grin:

But still, the point is that we don't always have scientific explanations for everything.  There have been times in history where people believed things that were later proven or disproven, such as why it rained or why there were comets or streaks of smoke in the sky.  Usually these things were attributed to angry or benevolent gods, or "signs". 

A belief is just a belief.  It doesn't necessarily have to be true.  Some beliefs are innocuous, like someone believing in God and living according to the standards laid out in the bible. 

Some are dangerous, like the beliefs of the Muslims that recently beheaded that American on Friday. 

There is a saying in computerese: GIGO or garbage in = garbage out. By this I mean if one is basing one's actions or decisions on a falsehood (garbage in) then the decision or action will be wrong (garbage out) or will be right for the wrong reasons. Taking a non-religious belief for a moment, I generally crush poker opponents who make decisions based on how their luck or opponent's luck has been going.

But who is to prove that what goes in is garbage?  I've been told that I believe in fairy stories.  I guess that would also mean that what I believe is based on garbage going in, right? 

So taking me as an example...I believe that God is taking care of me based on things that have happened in my life.  Consequently, I have a sense of security that I don't have to worry.  Worry is unnecessary and can make someone sick.  So then maybe having a belief that God is taking care of me isn't so bad. 

There certainly are glaring inconsistencies in the Bible which is indicative of a flawed system. The basic premise that it is the Word of God is supported only by the Bible itself. This is called self-referencing and is not a logical method of validation.

Yes, there are flaws in the bible.  And yes, the bible could be a tautology.  Belief in God is an act of faith.  But I'm talking about the basic tenets of the bible, such as "love thy neighbor", etc.  What's wrong with that?  If someone looks at the bible rationally, and doesn't distort the message taught therein, it's not such a bad way to live one's life. 

We miscommunicated on this one.

6. Real-world "results" from following any system are not required (even though it is a "good" thing).
If I do good acts then I will reap a reward. Sometimes yes; sometimes no.


Well, we can't always see the big picture.  I was reminded of a story in that book I was reading, that you said you had also read, "Journey of a Peaceful Warrior" or something like that, by Dan Millman. 

I probably will not get the story exactly right, but you'll get the idea.  He tells an old story about an old farmer who has a son and one day their only horse runs away.  The townspeople all cry "what a terrible thing".  The farmer says, "Good or bad?  Who's to say?"

About a week later, the horse comes back, bringing with it about 5 or 6 wild horses. The townspeople all cry "what a wonderful thing."  The farmer says, "Good or bad?  Who's to say?"

About a week later, the son breaks his leg while he is breaking the wild horses.  es. The townspeople all cry "what a terrible thing."  The farmer says, "Good or bad?  Who's to say?"

About a week later, the king's men come marching through the town, drafting all the eligible young men to fight in a war.  Because the son had just recently broken his leg, he was not taken.

But in general, if we do good, we will reap what appears to be rewards.  And if we do bad, we will reap what appears to be just desserts.  But we don?t know if those rewards are really rewards, or if the desserts are truly desserts.  Sometimes we find out much later that the bad we reaped as a result of doing something good was actually a good thing.

My marriage will be better if we are equally yoked. Nope, divorce cuts across all faith lines equally.

I agree with two people being equally yoked, but not just in religious beliefs or nonbeliefs.  Socio-economics, parts of the country, education, etc.  The more two people have in common, the mjore likely they will not end in divorce, but I could be wrong.  Maybe Markos will come in and set me straight.

See Hawk's earlier response. This is typical. How are you feeling when responding to this post? Loving, irritated or neutral?

I used to have hurt feelings when people appeared to attack me.  I had to learn through it.  I?m not being attacked.  These are just your opinions and beliefs and whatever.  You DO tend to generalize a bit.  So, I?ll just have to take these opportunities to set you straight.  :grin:


The words infidel and heathen were coined specifically as derogatory phrases towards non-believers or those of different faiths. This denotes a superior stance, does it not?


I have not seen Christians on this forum call nonbelievers or those of different faiths any names.  I may have missed  it.  I personally don?t know why people criticize each other for their beliefs.  Might be out of fear. 

We are all foolish in some areas and wise in others.

fool: One who is deficient in judgment, sense, or understanding

judgement:

1. The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating.

2. The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense.

Would you call it a foolish act for someone to bury their children in dirt to protect them from evil spirits?


Yes, but as I stated above, some people have beliefs that are dangerous.  Most are innocuous.  I believe in God, and the Bible, and the Universe, and karma.  I am not going to bury my children in dirt to protect them from evil spirits.  Some people have off-balanced brains, regardless of their beliefs.  Again, generalizations aren?t very helpful.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Frog]
    #2810268 - 06/20/04 03:02 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I guess that would also mean that what I believe is based on garbage going in, right?
Ah, tender froglet, let us reread my line together, shall we? "...if one is basing one's actions or decisions on a falsehood..." This is a conditional statement and not a comment on you.

You DO tend to generalize a bit.
Huh? You prefer that I name names and really get personal? Please elaborate.

Worry is unnecessary and can make someone sick.
True enough. Do you think there are people who rarely worry without any belief in a deity? The way to drop worry is to drop worry.

But I'm talking about the basic tenets of the bible, such as "love thy neighbor", etc. What's wrong with that?
Nothing, unless you get caught. *Ba doom boom* Seriously then, I must also be a believer.

Yes, but as I stated above, some people have beliefs that are dangerous. Most are innocuous.
I find Bush's interpretation of Christianity to be incredibly dangerous. "God told me to go to War with Iraq," (and bomb and kill civilians while bankrupting America and turning many nations against the USA, while making my buddies and I even more wealthy (see Halliburton wins $8 billion contract)... That is the trouble with believing one is infallible and has right on their side.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (06/20/04 04:16 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2810948 - 06/20/04 12:40 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

"You DO tend to generalize a bit"

All generalizations are false!


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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2811308 - 06/20/04 03:48 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Ah, tender froglet, let us reread my line together, shall we? "...if one is basing one's actions or decisions on a falsehood..." This is conditional statement and not a comment on you.

No, I wasn't being tender.  I was sticking to me, but as if I was someone else with my beliefs.  I am taking your statement and applying it to me, based on your generalizations.  Aren't you in essence saying that when someone believes in the bible and all that God stuff, that it's garbage in, and therefore garbage out, such as in my case, since that is what I believe?


Huh? You prefer that I name names and really get personal? Please elaborate.


Well, look at your first post:

Quote:

Gathering up all that I have learned in the past year, I offer this synopsis:

1. Belief connotes things not seen or evidenced else belief would not be required.

2. Belief is a good thing, even though it may be in something non-existent.

3. When "choosing" a belief system, it is best to borrow a pre-existing system without questioning where the earlier system came from.

4. Most people "choose" a system that is based on their prevailing culture rather than on any form of rationality.

5. Plasticity is extremely important. When reality fails to conform to the system, just add an exception clause.

6. Real-world "results" from following any system are not required (even though it is a "good" thing).

7. If one's belief system is challenged, it is normal (and expected) to be become angry and sometimes violent, even if the beliefs include non-violence.

8. It is most important to believe that ones' unfounded and unsubstantiated beliefs are more inportant and more valid (though they cannot be validated) than anothers'.




Those are major generalizations.  There are many people that post on this forum who have explained why they have come to believe the way they believe. You simply find insufficient evidence upon which these people base their beliefs.  But this doesn't mean that great care and research and study and talking to others didn't go into the choices people made. 

There are people who have even admitted that there is no real basis for their beliefs, but they based their choice to believe on what they have studied so far.

See, you can't generalize about every one on this forum.  When you post like that, it's likely to provoke heated responses because you have generalized about one type of individual who believes out of ignorance and extrapolated that to the population of believers in general. 


Do you think there are people who rarely worry without any belief in a deity? The way to drop worry is to drop worry.


I agree, and I learned in one of my last threads that a belief in God or some higher power or deity or whatever is not necessary to find peace. 

My point is that my belief in God and the Universe and all things working together, good or bad, gave me peace of mind.  So in my case, my beliefs serve me well, even if in your opinion my beliefs are not founded in substantive evidence.

But I'm talking about the basic tenets of the bible, such as "love thy neighbor", etc. What's wrong with that?
Nothing, unless you get caught. *Ba doom boom* Seriously then, I must also be a believer.


*yawn*


I find Bush's interpretation of Christianity to be incredibly dangerous. "God told me to go to War with Iraq," (and bomb and kill civilians while bankrupting America and turning many nations against the USA, while making my buddies and I even more wealthy (see Halliburton wins $8 billion contract)... That is the trouble with believing one is infallible and has right on their side.


Yes, that would be dangerous.  But again, everything happens for a reason.  Maybe Bush's actions are what we needed to get WWIII going so that 2012 can be implemented.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Frog]
    #2811345 - 06/20/04 04:22 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Aren't you in essence saying that when someone believes in the bible and all that God stuff, that it's garbage in, and therefore garbage out, such as in my case, since that is what I believe?

My statement is simple and needs no great interpretation. Erroneous input = erroneous output. Ta da! If you choose to drive over the mountains in winter based on a false clear weather report then you may get stranded in a blizzard.

If I did not generalize, I would have written a 20,000 page report, so a few short-cuts were taken.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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if you can drown in logic - why take a boat? [Re: Swami]
    #2811402 - 06/20/04 05:16 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

G-I-G-O
linear processing works like that(, I write software for a living.)
multiple linear processing approaches life. (if you can synchronize the threads)
massively parallel linear processing does even better for stuff that is moving on a known trajectory. (again assumptions will now be made to get interactive thread synchronization)

then we get to how do you manage if you don't have time to type into a blog and ask some swami for the truth, and when what is happenning is more complex than a single massively parallel task description.

so.
some additional assumptions will be applied from experience or memory or legend.

this can be dangerous unless you know how to use assumptions like stepping stones to traverse the unknown, and then continue again on terra firma.

the fact of the matter is that for terra firma, and linear processing things are easy to lock down, but if you have to cross the water you may need a boat.


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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2811463 - 06/20/04 05:52 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Aren't you in essence saying that when someone believes in the bible and all that God stuff, that it's garbage in, and therefore garbage out, such as in my case, since that is what I believe?

My statement is simple and needs no great interpretation. Erroneous input = erroneous output. Ta da! If you choose to drive over the mountains in winter based on a false clear weather report then you may get stranded in a blizzard.

If I did not generalize, I would have written a 20,000 page report, so a few short-cuts were taken.




Okay, then be more specific in this way:

What is the erroneous input, and what is the consequential erroneous output?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief *DELETED* [Re: Frog]
    #2812253 - 06/20/04 11:47 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by Huehuecoyotl


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (06/20/04 11:48 PM)


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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2812294 - 06/20/04 11:55 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, but it was me who said it.  And imo, everything happens for a reason, mystical or not.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Frog]
    #2812370 - 06/21/04 12:12 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Very sorry for the mistake. I'm trying to keep up with an install Debian Linux on another box while making the post. I thought I saw Swami's name on it and thought I saw a major error on his part considering his position. Anyway the post has been corrected.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2812574 - 06/21/04 01:10 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

If I ever made such a mistake, then in true Samurai fashion, I would have to end my life.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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