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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: Icelander]
    #16742218 -

Leave me alone or I'll pray for you! :satan:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: Diploid]
    #16742236 -

OK sorry dood. :frown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: Diploid]
    #16742291 -

Diploid said:
Leave me alone or I'll pray for you! :satan:


I'm sending good vibrations your way. :vibin:


Can you feel them yet?

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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: Memories]
    #16742328 -



--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: Icelander]
    #16742575 -

Icelander said:
Humans suck?  Tell me more. :thumbup:

btw it's an illusion that this country has ever been any different in any degree.


Hmm maybe before the europeans invaded america :shrug:

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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #16742615 -

The buildings were smaller


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: Memories]
    #16742946 -

Memories said:
Diploid said:
Leave me alone or I'll pray for you! :satan:


I'm sending good vibrations your way. :vibin:


Can you feel them yet?



Diploid's pretty close to that witchunting prosecutor in the Zimmerman case- I hope you aimed carefully or else she'll pick up the positive vibrations and decide to charge a bunch more people without rhyme or reason.

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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: johnm214]
    #16742961 -

I always encrypt my vibrations. :yesnod:

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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: Diploid]
    #16743015 -

Diploid said:
Everyone's got something they don't support in the government though.

My rant is nothing about what I do and don't support. It's about what is codified in very clear language in the founding document of our nation.

Separation of church and state is not my wish. It is the highest law of the land. And it is being bypassed by hypocrite "patriots" who look the other way because the law being broken works in their favor.


I hardly think the language of the establishment clause clearly bans federal funding for religious job positions and programs any more than, say, the first amendment clearly prevents governmental bodies like the FCC from existing.  But at any rate the courts have decided like they've decided, and I don't think your situation is any different than that of, for example, the pro-lifer who is mad about paying for government healthcare abortions made possible by Roe v. Wade (in fact, I think they would have more of a complaint, since interpreting the 14th Amendment to include a right to privacy is in my opinion a much bigger stretch than what's happening here).

Quote:
The U.S. Constitution said:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;


I do think you have a stronger bone of contention against things like the National Day of Prayer than against paying the salaries of military chaplains.  Supporting those guys is more like providing mental health services than "establishing" a religion.


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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #16743039 -

Before I was discharged from the US Navy as a conscientious objector, I had to be interviewed by the Executive Officer, a navy shrink and a navy chaplain.

The shrink was to determine if I was crazy for not wanting to kill people with long range weapons.

The chaplain was there to ensure that my objections were firmly based on Christian tenets. (They weren't.)


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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #16743117 -

I hardly think the language of the establishment clause clearly bans federal funding for religious job positions and programs

There's the letter of the law, and there's its intent.

Thomas Jefferson clarified the intent when he wrote in his 1802 Danbury letter:

I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

But, if you wanna get all picky and technical, the letter of the law also applies. By extorting from me taxes to pay for a government-sponsored religious function, even if it is one single penny of tax, then it is a penny I no longer have at my disposal to donate to my church, thus depriving my church (read: making a law respecting an establishment of religion) of funding it would otherwise have received.

No matter how you slice this, it will always come up the same way. Using my money to fund a religious function I don't agree with is a clear violation of both the letter (as written in the constitution) and the intent (as clarified by Jefferson) of the first amendment. :sorry:

And johnm214 makes a great point. In a few years when we have a Muslim president, our hypocrite leaders and electorate will have a shit fit when the first wahhabi prayer breakfast for allah takes place in the White House. Just like they did when the first black president attempted to address the nation's school children and was aggressively shut down. Nevermind that when a white president (Ronald Reagan) wanted to address school children in 1988, everyone applauded it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: Icelander]
    #16743353 -

Icelander said:
The buildings were smaller


Yah and the weapons didn't make noise :sun:

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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: Diploid]
    #16743816 -

Diploid said:
I hardly think the language of the establishment clause clearly bans federal funding for religious job positions and programs

There's the letter of the law, and there's its intent.

Thomas Jefferson clarified the intent when he wrote in his 1802 Danbury letter:

I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.


And the courts decided in Marsh v. Chambers that none of this matters in terms of funding for chaplains because the founding fathers hired one way back when they drafted the constitution, there's always been one, and mgooba floppa zoo:

Quote:
In light of the unambiguous and unbroken history of more than 200 years, there can be no doubt that the practice of opening legislative sessions with prayer has become part of the fabric of our society. To invoke Divine guidance on a public body entrusted with making the laws is not, in these circumstances, an "establishment" of religion or a step toward establishment; it is simply a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country. As Justice Douglas observed, "[w]e are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being." Zorach v. Clauson, 343 U.S. 306, 313 (1952).


So there you have it, we have chaplains pretty much entirely because most everybody's okay with it.  You don't have to think it makes any sense but you do have to pay for it, just like everyone else pays for the stupid s@$# they don't like.

Hell, the only reason Jefferson's letter became part of jurisprudence is a supreme court case over whether or not the gov't could outlaw mormon religious practices, and the only reason the "separation of church and state" doctrine started to have any major impact on gov't policy is because the Protestant majority was pissed at the Catholics getting gov't moneyz in the middle of last century and that exerted pressure to start legal battles and to create these rulings.  Applying the law is always an act of interpretation, and interpretations are influenced by popular opinion.  In 50 years when the country starts shifting atheist all this will change and eventually chaplains will be de-funded.  The fact that you put in for the salaries of these people is an injustice only in the sense that you by no choice of your own live in a society which does not reflect your beliefs.

Quote:
But, if you wanna get all picky and technical, the letter of the law also applies. By extorting from me taxes to pay for a government-sponsored religious function, even if it is one single penny of tax, then it is a penny I no longer have at my disposal to donate to my church, thus depriving my church (read: making a law respecting an establishment of religion) of funding it would otherwise have received.


By this reasoning, paying for the Whitehouse's press functions is a violation of Republicans' right to free speech, funding the military violates a 2nd Amendment right to spend that money on arming yourself, etc.


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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #16744236 -

And the courts decided in Marsh v. Chambers that none of this matters in terms of funding for chaplains because the founding fathers hired one way back when they drafted the constitution

I'm not debating what the courts have decided. I'm debating the propriety of those decisions. I am as absolutely certain as I ever am of anything that those religious judges would have ruled otherwise if it had been a case of Muslim religious functions being tax-payer funded. And mark my words, when the Muslims become a sizable minority with voting rights, we will start to see exactly those judgements reversed by the religious-heads in power when they start to feel the way I feel now.

By this reasoning, paying for the Whitehouse's press functions is a violation of Republicans' right to free speech

That is a specious analogy.

The White House has to be maintained as the central locus of government regardless of which party is in power, and there is no bar against any party holding the White House if elected. However, I, as a Satanist, have ZERO chance of ever having my religion toasted at a government prayer breakfast.

So there you have it, we have chaplains pretty much entirely because most everybody's okay with it.

We used to have slavery because pretty much everyone was OK with it. We used to ban women suffrage because everyone was OK with it. We used to require citizens to own land before they could vote because everyone was OK with it.

Those things were still wrong, codified as such in the constitution, and a shining example of the height of American hypocrisy.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: Diploid]
    #16744748 -

Diploid said:
And the courts decided in Marsh v. Chambers that none of this matters in terms of funding for chaplains because the founding fathers hired one way back when they drafted the constitution

I'm not debating what the courts have decided. I'm debating the propriety of those decisions. I am as absolutely certain as I ever am of anything that those religious judges would have ruled otherwise if it had been a case of Muslim religious functions being tax-payer funded. And mark my words, when the Muslims become a sizable minority with voting rights, we will start to see exactly those judgements reversed by the religious-heads in power when they start to feel the way I feel now.


So we just disagree over whether or not the hypocrisy of the American legal system is a justification for indignation or not.  I guess I just see examples of a largely-religious nation overlooking its case law about separation of church and chalk that up to the cost of doing business.

Quote:
By this reasoning, paying for the Whitehouse's press functions is a violation of Republicans' right to free speech

That is a specious analogy.


It was a specious argument.  The government taking its share only prevents you from giving your church its share if your church requires you to forfeit all your income to it.  Even if you did that, I doubt any court would rule that taxation then violates your first amendment rights.  Technically, since resources are always limited, it does somewhat hamper your ability to exercise your own rights, but the law has never gone along with such ticky-tack reasoning.

Quote:
The White House has to be maintained as the central locus of government regardless of which party is in power, and there is no bar against any party holding the White House if elected. However, I, as a Satanist, have ZERO chance of ever having my religion toasted at a government prayer breakfast.



And members of the Libertarian party, Communist party, Green party, etc. all have zero chance of electing a candidate to the Presidency.  I think the analogy would still hold.

Quote:
So there you have it, we have chaplains pretty much entirely because most everybody's okay with it.

We used to have slavery because pretty much everyone was OK with it. We used to ban women suffrage because everyone was OK with it. We used to require citizens to own land before they could vote because everyone was OK with it.

Those things were still wrong, codified as such in the constitution, and a shining example of the height of American hypocrisy.


Slavery is still wrong even in the absence of a constitutional system like the U.S.'s because it violates fundamental human rights, rights that individuals still possess even in a natural state.  The right to vote is only created in societies with certain types of governmental systems.  Likewise, the right not to have your tax dollars spent on programs or positions you find objectionable is a right that is only created in certain types of societies.  I don't that right even makes sense in a natural state, and it definitely doesn't exist in the U.S.


--------------------

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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #16744838 -

It was a specious argument.

It was an extreme application of the letter of the law, an argument you began with despite Jefferson's exposé on the intent of the law.

And members of the Libertarian party, Communist party, Green party, etc. all have zero chance of electing a candidate to the Presidency.

Not so. Any one of those could in theory hold office and have their own flavor of socially acceptable spaghetti monster worship on the public dime if they're elected. That they're unlikely to be elected is immaterial. They COULD be elected and pray to the catholic god on my dime.

But a Satanist or a Vampirist and probably a Muslim too would be categorically denied the same opportunity. If you think for one second that the congress (who writes the checks) would fund a Satanist prayer breakfast at the White House, you're blind. There would be a coup d'etat before they'd allow public money to pay for that.

Slavery is still wrong even in the absence of a constitutional system like the U.S.'s because it violates fundamental human rights, rights that individuals still possess even in a natural state.

Says you.

Says me, it's a fundamental right not to have money extorted from me under threat of force to pay for the worship of an adult's invisible friend.

I have to swallow paying for a war I don't agree with because the majority does. Fine. I have to swallow supporting dead beats who shit out more children than they can afford because the majority does. Fine. I have to swallow friends dying from chronic diseases because they can't pay for medical care because the majority are heartless shits. Fine.

But I don't accept having to pay for the worship of imaginary entities. That crosses a line I demarcate as a "fundamental right".

You may disagree. Fine. I'll lump you in with the rest of humanity: worthy of extinction by giant asteroid, and good riddance.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: Diploid]
    #16744969 -

You crack me up dude. :lol:


I have to swallow paying for a war I don't agree with because the majority does. Fine. I have to swallow supporting dead beats who shit out more children than they can afford because the majority does. Fine. I have to swallow friends dying from chronic diseases because they can't pay for medical care because the majority are heartless shits. Fine.]


Really? This shit is all fine but religion is out of the question?  You're a hoot bro. :lol:

What really bugs me is property taxes.  And telling me that girls can be underage. :hissyfit:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16744988 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Why are Pro-Lifers predominently pro-war?


Because we need to protect da children from da terrorizers. :laugh:


--------------------


"Personally, I belief in The holy Cornholio. Of his latter name. Our jesus baby. A MEN"

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Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: Icelander]
    #16745003 -

This shit is all fine but religion is out of the question?

Of course it's not fine. But its prohibition is not codified in the law. That makes the religion thing wrong AND egregious because it IS against the law. There's assault and then there's aggravated assault.

One evil at a time, and religion is the evilest of all, so it gets my first attention.

Oh and the underage girls things is a close second, yeah. :evil:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Rape victims don't get pregnant. [Re: Diploid]
    #16745010 -

The "one evil" is humanity itself and giving birth.  Religion is just a symptom, one of many.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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