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Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Evolution [Re: Silversoul]
    #11237799 -

I dont think it is right to talk about the evolution of the smallest parts... for they actually stay the same. it is their arrangement that changes. We are (to our knowledge) made up of the same sort of stuff the rest of the universe is made of.. it is not the particles evolving but their arrangement, their form. However, if something is evolving, it only passes through stages.

Look, does an orange turn into orange juice and peel? or does the orange seed turn into orange juice and peel? or does the original life form evolve, in part, into a glass of orange juice and a stack of peels? It doesnt fuckin matter.. whenever something changes, it ceases being what it was before. Nothing lasts forever and so everything was once something else. Therefor, everything has evolved and likely will evolve again. This jus tmeans that at one point the thing changed into something else. We don't deny that 'the thing changed' just because it no longer exists, and didnt always exist.


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Re: Evolution [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11238722 -

At one point in time no atoms existed, only subatomic particles, at one point in time no molecules existed, DNA etc.

DNA forms all life(ask any geneticist, DNA is what evolves because DNA IS THE SPECIES), but it too is just adenine, guanine, cytosine, thymine. Everything has smaller parts... so to not trace those parts' histories as part of the holon (or as howard bloom generally calls it 'superorganisms') would be to not full realize the entire object and all of it's properties.

Quote:
This jus tmeans that at one point the thing changed into something else. We don't deny that 'the thing changed' just because it no longer exists, and didn't always exist.


You are implying that it is foolish or even wrong to trace the evolutionary histories of animals....

Quote:
We have to recruit every atom that we possibly can into the scheme of DNA, into the clan of biomass, and into the family of life.

H.K. Bloom


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"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Re: Evolution [Re: Chronic7]
    #11239902 -

Evolution is not a growth, it is a common misconception that evolution's goal is increased complexity, in fact complexity is just a random byproduct of evolution.


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:eatingout:

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Re: Evolution [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #11240047 -

What supports your line of thinking?  ....


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Re: Evolution [Re: mozhual]
    #11240071 -

The definition of evolution.


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:eatingout:

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Re: Evolution [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #11240082 -

No it doesn't...  I'm not saying I disagree completely, but
Quote:
in fact complexity is just a random byproduct of evolution.

just is not fact.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Re: Evolution [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #11240093 -

NortonStPhallus said:
The definition of evolution.


No, not really.  To say that there is no purpose to evolution, and that complexity is just a random byproduct of it, would be to project a nihilistic bias into evolution which is not a necessary part of its definition.


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Re: Evolution [Re: Silversoul]
    #11240192 -

Quote:
Evolution is not a growth, it is a common misconception that evolution's goal is increased complexity, in fact complexity is just a random byproduct of evolution.


It's a common misconception that evolution HAS some goal, there's no evidence to suggest it's "led" by anything.  It's also iffy to suggest there's anything random about it.  Evolution is built from natural selection, random mutations occur...but which of those mutations will be most effective at helping a species survive isn't.


--------------------
*+_Charos_+*

"Be me, for a little while"
--Eli

My Deviantart Page
My Youtube Page


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Re: Evolution [Re: Charos]
    #11240238 -

What about the non-random mutations of bacteria? That rarely get noticed. Eshel Ben-Jacob and James A. Sharpiro have done extensive research on this. I believe it was Eshel that took E. coli and got it to, in two consecutive generations, to evolve from eating sugar to eating silicate.

EDIT: I'm not disagreeing, just wondering if you've heard of and what thoughts you have on that.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

Edited by mozhual (10/13/09 03:29 PM)

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Re: Evolution [Re: Charos]
    #11240309 -

Charos said:
Quote:
Evolution is not a growth, it is a common misconception that evolution's goal is increased complexity, in fact complexity is just a random byproduct of evolution.


It's a common misconception that evolution HAS some goal, there's no evidence to suggest it's "led" by anything.  It's also iffy to suggest there's anything random about it.  Evolution is built from natural selection, random mutations occur...but which of those mutations will be most effective at helping a species survive isn't.


There's no scientific evidence of teleology in evolution only because science cannot measure purpose.  Science can only be neutral on that subject.  So to take away either interpretation -- that evolution has a purpose or that it is simply random and purposeless -- is to project that interpretation onto evidence which does not scientifically support either claim.


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Re: Evolution [Re: Silversoul]
    #11240338 -

Quote:
There's no scientific evidence of teleology in evolution only because science cannot measure purpose.  Science can only be neutral on that subject.


Which was a big problem for one of my favorite authors, Nietzsche...science can't make value judgments on things such as that.  However my point still stands, whatever the reason there's nothing whatsoever to suggest evolution is "guided" by anything.


--------------------
*+_Charos_+*

"Be me, for a little while"
--Eli

My Deviantart Page
My Youtube Page


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Re: Evolution [Re: Charos]
    #11240441 -

whoa, why're we talking about evolution being consciously guided?!

There are some things I can wrap my imagination around, but this isn't one.  I've tripped and felt there's a massive energy moving in a certain direction as far as shaping the world or about to open the flood gates onto imbalances.  This doesn't mean it's true though.  To believe evolution has a consciously driven bias is ridiculous.

I have no problem believing that evolution is a culmination of random events.  but evolution being driven? All I want to know is how do you know? support your claim with something other than extreme speculation that may have been aided with psychedelics.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Evolution [Re: mozhual]
    #11240492 -

So R and K-strategies for species
an r-strategist is the one that produces a lot but is also eaten a lot
k-strategists are the ones that reproduce few, and focus much of their energy on the survival of their offspring.  Humans are considered k-strategists.

if there's anything about evolution, it's driving an arms race for survival.  and that race inadvertently selects for more complex or more numbers.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Evolution [Re: Cracka_X]
    #11240561 -

I couldn't agree more, as do a lot of (but probably not the majority) scientists. By watching what succeeds you can, for lack of better knowledge, infer that it was one of the means for success. Does this mean it is fact? NO... does it mean it is a more reasonable explanation then "there is no reason or meaning to evolution and there is no way of speculating either way" and statements like it? YES, obviously... but it is not so concrete that I would find it relevant for discussion.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Re: Evolution [Re: mozhual]
    #11240976 -

My post was poorly worded and too absolutist as I made it in a hurry, but I still believe that the OP was wrong in saying that evolution is a growth, or that it has an ultimate goal of increasing complexity, there is no evidence for this. I was wrong in saying that "complexity is a random byproduct" my mistake.


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:eatingout:

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Re: Evolution [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #11241026 -

Quote:
but I still believe that the OP was wrong in saying that evolution is a growth, or that it has an ultimate goal of increasing complexity, there is no evidence for this.

Thank you for clarifying.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Re: Evolution [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #11242576 -

NortonStPhallus said:
My post was poorly worded and too absolutist as I made it in a hurry, but I still believe that the OP was wrong in saying that evolution is a growth, or that it has an ultimate goal of increasing complexity, there is no evidence for this. I was wrong in saying that "complexity is a random byproduct" my mistake.


Prominent evolutionists and evolutionists like Dawkins and Dennett -- certainly no fans of teleology -- have said that evolution inevitably leads to complexity wherever it is allowed to do so.  Now, saying that complexity is the goal of evolution is to add a teleological dimension to that observation, but one needn't be teleological about it to note that it is in the very nature of evolution to create complexity from simplicity.


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Re: Evolution [Re: Silversoul]
    #11242911 -

Silversoul said:
NortonStPhallus said:
My post was poorly worded and too absolutist as I made it in a hurry, but I still believe that the OP was wrong in saying that evolution is a growth, or that it has an ultimate goal of increasing complexity, there is no evidence for this. I was wrong in saying that "complexity is a random byproduct" my mistake.


Prominent evolutionists and evolutionists like Dawkins and Dennett -- certainly no fans of teleology -- have said that evolution inevitably leads to complexity wherever it is allowed to do so.  Now, saying that complexity is the goal of evolution is to add a teleological dimension to that observation, but one needn't be teleological about it to note that it is in the very nature of evolution to create complexity from simplicity.


See, I don't know if I agree...Let's start a bit back.  Evolution is a system of change, at time that change can be positive (for example a butterfly species finding a certain flower that's red which they feed on gradually becoming more red to bled with that particular flower).  Others can be completely horrible (deformed limbs, or even an offspring which is black and stands out on the red plant who are eaten).  This aspect of it IS chance, it depends on environment in the womb or egg and a hundred other factors we can't really control.  The way complexity works is just species with the beneficial mutations manage to make it through to breed and pass on that gene (coincidentally this is where chance ceases to be a factor).

This however is simply the result of natural selection...to you see these systems?  These aren't moral systems, they're simply events, results of logical happening.  It makes SENSE that mutations whit work better in an environment (hair in arctic climate) will increase survival and reproduction chance...but what is "goal" is the question...

[quote="Dictionary.com"]the result or achievement toward which effort is directed; aim; end.


Since these are natural forces, and effort requires some form of feeling, a push (for most of us emotionally based)...nature doesn't have that, it simply IS...it would have to have an intent by which to desire that end.  This would sort of be like arguing that Vesuvius erupted because it had the goal of destroying Pompeii.


--------------------
*+_Charos_+*

"Be me, for a little while"
--Eli

My Deviantart Page
My Youtube Page


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Re: Evolution [Re: Charos]
    #11243469 -

Some of you might find this helpful/interesting/insightful, an excerpt from Global Brain:

"The instant of creation marked the dawn of sociality. A neutron is a particle filled with need. It is unable to sustain itself for longer then 10.3 minutes. To survive, it must find at least one mate then form a family. The initial three minutes of existence were spent in cosmological courting, as protons paired off with neutrons, then rapidly attracted another couple to wed their embrace, forming a two-proton, two-neutron quartet of a helium nucleus. Those neutrons which managed to do this gain relative immortality. The staying power of helium atoms is so great that roughly 14 billion years later, the [atomic]universe remains 25% helium. Those which stayed single ceased to be. The rule at the heart of the learning machine was already being obeyed:'To he who hath it shall be given. From he who hath not it shall be taken away.'"


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Re: Evolution [Re: Diploid]
    #11243564 -

Diploid said:
kennedy, stop trying to derail this thread. The topic is evolution, not "Karellen".


Nobody caught the reference I guess. I was joking but this actually is a really good book about the next stage of mankind, I am not betting that what happens in this book will really happen (it is fiction) but the idea is cool. It's about what the final goal of evolution is, to become a part of a universal collective consciousness.

Edited by kennedy (10/14/09 12:37 AM)

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Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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