Home | Community | Message Board


Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop: Scales, Tapestry

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleChronic7
 User Gallery
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,677
Evolution
    #11225164 - 10/11/09 08:21 AM (8 years, 13 days ago)

Evolution is a growth, so what are we growing from & what are we growing to?
If we started in the sea, then swinging in tress, now walking the land, what is next?


Or even, where did it start from? Where will it end up?
Can the start & end be 2 different locations?


The term 'evolution' can only be referring to a single entity that is evolving through different species

So, who isit that is evolving?


:peace:


--------------------
________________________________


Edited by Chronic7 (10/11/09 08:35 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineNoteworthy
Sophyphile
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
Re: Evolution [Re: Chronic7]
    #11225253 - 10/11/09 09:10 AM (8 years, 13 days ago)

It started from something that is unrecognisable and will probably end that way. If life arose as substances in water on the earth, they will probably end as some space dust or alternatively be swallowed by something

Do you really think that a single entity evolves? I think it is species that evolve, and thus its not really a single entity, although it could be simplified and treated as such


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleChronic7
 User Gallery
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,677
Re: Evolution [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11225305 - 10/11/09 09:38 AM (8 years, 13 days ago)

Yes but evolution is from species to species, so something beyond any particular species is evolving, what isit that evolved from sea creature, to land creature, to ape to human?

Also to say it started from something unrecognizable, is merely out of a failure to recognize, you should not find this offensive

:peace:


--------------------
________________________________


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAhimsa
Male

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,790
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Evolution [Re: Chronic7]
    #11225320 - 10/11/09 09:42 AM (8 years, 13 days ago)

It has to be a form that evolved. If it didn't have a form it couldn't evolve could it? Now, i do accept that the is a spiritual dimension, although it is not visible, it is still a form.
So then, what makes this spirit? To me it is the law of cause and effect. It is my observation that cause and effect create a field (spirit) of 'what has to be' as an outcome of previous actions. This field or spirit is what evolves i think.

:flowers: Am i close?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineNoteworthy
Sophyphile
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
Re: Evolution [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11225463 - 10/11/09 10:36 AM (8 years, 13 days ago)

I think this is a confusion... although we give different names to different species, they are all actually one 'entity' that is evolving and has branched out. Each branch is a species, when we pick them apart, but essentially there are just a whole bunch of breeding pools constantly morphing, most if not all having come from the same source.

Life is what evolved into the myriad of things. We name its branches 'species' and when they become split, we consider the branches to have diverged in evolutionary paths. The single entity can be thought of as the branch, but we don't have a name for the branch. We just have names for the different systematically defined sections of the branch.

Imagine if an animal had a hairy patch and it evolves into a horn. The hairy patch can be said to 'evolve' into a horn, just like a species can be said to 'evolve' into another species. However it is more appropriate to say that the animal itself evolved, and that the hair was an aspect that changed. More less appropriate but still legitimately, you could say that the ecosystem evolved. And, also that the universe evolved.

It doesnt matter what scale you ask... you can say it is evolving on any level, as long as it is changing.

Species defined by breeding pool. It is the breeding pools that are evolving, when people say that a 'species is evolving'.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleChronic7
 User Gallery
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,677
Re: Evolution [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11225474 - 10/11/09 10:40 AM (8 years, 13 days ago)

I really like your analogy :thumbup:

My whole pointing is that through all this changing, growing & evolving, that grand tapestry you just so beautifully described...

There is something untouched, unchanging, something permanent

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
all having come from the same source





That source is the only consistent abiding Reality
It is the only reliable & stable thing in the entire universe
it is the Self, yourself

:peace:


--------------------
________________________________


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Evolution [Re: Chronic7]
    #11225530 - 10/11/09 10:55 AM (8 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
The term 'evolution' can only be referring to a single entity that is evolving through different species



I disagree.  I don't think it really makes sense to just take a single entity apart from its environment and social relations and just talk about it evolving.  This is to commit what Whitehead referred to as the "fallacy of misplaced concreteness" -- to take a part as if it were a whole unto itself.

I personally think that evolutionary biologists should collaborate a little more with ecologists, as this would yield a more accurate understanding of evolution.  We talk about evolutionary adaptations as basically passive responses to changes in the environment.  But is it not also true that species themselves play a role in changing their environment?  Is not the environment largely constituent of the biological organisms within it?  Evolutionary biology needs to transcend its atomistic emphasis on individual species and take a more ecological view of evolution.  We need to understand that ecosystems themselves evolve.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleChronic7
 User Gallery
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,677
Re: Evolution [Re: Silversoul]
    #11225540 - 10/11/09 10:58 AM (8 years, 13 days ago)

I see no distinction between species/environment, evolution applies to both
In my eyes there isnt even 'both' though, they are one organism if you will...

To me its all one process

My point is who isit that goes through this process?
The process cycles but who goes through the cycles?

To Pinpoint, what actually isit that lives & dies?

:peace:


--------------------
________________________________


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Evolution [Re: Chronic7]
    #11225601 - 10/11/09 11:12 AM (8 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
I see no distinction between species/environment, evolution applies to both
In my eyes there isnt even 'both' though, they are one organism if you will...



That's sort of what I'm saying, but I'd also caution against going too far in that direction as well.  Arthur Koestler coined a useful term called a "holon" -- something which is both a whole and a part of a greater whole -- to describe the basic constituents of the universe.  So I would say that individual species(and individual organisms) do evolve, but that you can't fully understand their evolution apart from the evolution of their ecosystem.


Quote:

My point is who isit that goes through this process?
The process cycles but who goes through the cycles?

To Pinpoint, what actually isit that lives & dies?

:peace:



I would say that it occurs on several different levels.  I don't think Richard Dawkins is entirely wrong with his "Selfish Gene" theory, except insofar as it reduces all evolution to the organism's DNA.  The genes are evolving, but they do not do so in isolation.  They rely on the whole organism in the same way that the organism relies upon them.  They also rely on other genomes which are co-evolving along with them.  I would also argue that organisms possess agency in evolution.  Not in the way Lamarck believed, but in changing the environmental conditions in which they live, thus altering the conditions to which they adapt.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,780
Loc: Swamp
Re: Evolution [Re: Chronic7]
    #11230210 - 10/12/09 12:48 AM (8 years, 12 days ago)
Log in to view attachment

Quote:

I personally think that evolutionary biologists should collaborate a little more with ecologists, as this would yield a more accurate understanding of evolution.



Science is more integrative nowadays, so I'm sure they do.  I know there's shit journals that will publish anything, but to get into the bigger ones, scientists need to take an integrative approach.  Biostatistics methods are booming with ways to analyze many factors of multiple species in order to further understand, among other questions, evolution. 

Quote:

Not in the way Lamarck believed, but in changing the environmental conditions in which they live, thus altering the conditions to which they adapt.




nobody wants to give lamarck credit, but he was right. 
Here we go.  everyone hop on board the Lamarckism train!

Quote:


Recognition of Lamarck’s contribution is hindered by two persistent misconceptions.

First, people wrongly assume that he believed in the direct induction of advantageous hereditary changes by the environment. Yet he writes repeatedly against this notion: “For, whatever the environment may do, it does not work any direct modification whatever in the shape and organization of animals.” The second misconception concerns volition. A popular caricature of Lamarckism depicts an animal, usually a giraffe, wishing to reach the upper branches of trees, and acquiring a long neck through will alone. This error may have originated from the mistranslation of the French ‘besoin’ — meaning ‘need’ — into the ambiguous term ‘want’, which can mean both ‘desire’ and ‘need’. This poor choice by the 1914 translator was probably influenced by Cuvier’s use of the word “désir” in his damning eulogy. Of course, Lamarck did err. He believed in the inheritance of acquired characters (as did Darwin); adhered to the principle of plentitude — according to which any conceivable organism that can exist does exist; violently opposed Antoine Lavoisier and modern chemistry; and believed that science has a deistic purpose — similar to the accommodationism of modern biologists such as Ken Miller and Francis Collins. In fact, the amount of scientific rubbish that Lamarck put on paper certainly exceeds the quantity of good science in his scientific oeuvre. In this respect, he is no different from Aristotle, Isaac Newton, Darwin, Albert Einstein, Fred Hoyle or Francis Crick. But by writing about evolution directly rather than en passant (as did dozens of philosophers from Empedocles to Count Buffon), and by tackling the subject of evolution in scientific rather than poetical terms (as did Erasmus Darwin), Lamarck is without doubt the father of evolutionary theory.




--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,780
Loc: Swamp
Re: Evolution [Re: Chronic7]
    #11230325 - 10/12/09 01:03 AM (8 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
I see no distinction between species/environment, evolution applies to both
In my eyes there isnt even 'both' though, they are one organism if you will...

To me its all one process

My point is who isit that goes through this process?
The process cycles but who goes through the cycles?

To Pinpoint, what actually isit that lives & dies?

:peace:





All life on our planet is at the whim of the Earth's natural processes.  The Earth is under the influence of the Sun and the neighboring/passing interstellar activity.  And don't forget the moon. 

I think evolution is passively occurring with the aid of these processes.  I have to disagree with your idea that they're interconnected.  I feel like it's a more downstream effect.

If you were talking about ecological evolution of species on an island, then yes they're uberly interconnected, but for the great great master determinant, no. 

It plays the record that we dance to.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinekennedy
Male

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 432
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Evolution [Re: Cracka_X]
    #11230802 - 10/12/09 02:26 AM (8 years, 12 days ago)

Karellen will come and safely transition the human race from the physical into a part of the universal hive-mind when the time is right.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineNoteworthy
Sophyphile
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
Re: Evolution [Re: kennedy]
    #11231823 - 10/12/09 10:32 AM (8 years, 12 days ago)

:orly:


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,780
Loc: Swamp
Re: Evolution [Re: kennedy]
    #11233668 - 10/12/09 04:46 PM (8 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

kennedy said:
Karellen will come and safely transition the human race from the physical into a part of the universal hive-mind when the time is right.




This isn't Mysticism & Paranormal...


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCharos
Stranger
Male

Registered: 12/21/05
Posts: 43
Loc: Brantford ON, Canada
Last seen: 8 years, 1 day
Re: Evolution [Re: Chronic7]
    #11234234 - 10/12/09 06:30 PM (8 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Evolution is a growth, so what are we growing from & what are we growing to?
If we started in the sea, then swinging in tress, now walking the land, what is next?


Or even, where did it start from? Where will it end up?
Can the start & end be 2 different locations?


The term 'evolution' can only be referring to a single entity that is evolving through different species

So, who isit that is evolving?


:peace:




A single entity?  I'd argue that point...evolution isn't about the individual, it's about a species.  None of us here are "evolving" per-se, at least not in terms of evolutionary theory (it could be argued that we do evolve psychologically but that's a bit different)...for real evolution, particularly macroevolution we'd need to watch a few hundred generations pass by before any appreciable change began to take hold.

As it is now, I think our evolution will begin to take different forms given what we've become.  We're no longer functioning on the basic "survival of the fittest", we have techniques now by which we can heal or save people who, in nature, would have died off in infancy.  As such, it's no longer as much about which mutations enable the best chance of survival as it is about which mutations allow us to most powerfully integrate into society as a whole.  Intellect for example, I think more than watching for vestigial digits like our baby toes to disappear because they're no longer useful, our next evolutionary steps will be favoring those who can think most coherently...who have the intellect to gain more of those little tickets we call money.  Since those who are rich have become the "alpha" members of the pack rather than those who are quickest and strongest, those who have the status, cash and smarts are going to more likely pass on their genes than someone who's fast, agile and strong but works at macdonalds.

Quote:

Yes but evolution is from species to species, so something beyond any particular species is evolving, what isit that evolved from sea creature, to land creature, to ape to human?




It's important to clarify that we didn't really "evolve from apes" as such...it would be more accurate to say both ourselves and apes as we know them happen to have a common ancestor.  I think the issue here is that you're approaching evolution as static points on a grid, this species becomes this species...but evolution isn't static, it's fiercely DYNAMIC, it's transitional, not points on a line.  Rather it IS the line, a continual arcing process.

Quote:

It has to be a form that evolved. If it didn't have a form it couldn't evolve could it?




Why not?  Ideas are a good example, or beliefs...I began as a devout Christian (United Church of Canada), as I grew and became exposed to varying views on reality and truth I evolved from Christian gradually through into questioning, through countless other beliefs from Buddhism to Paganism to Pantheism and so on until I reached the point at which I am, as an atheist.  There's no distinctive "form" for those beliefs, even in my devout days my views were constantly shifting, growing and changing.

Quote:

My point is who isit that goes through this process?
The process cycles but who goes through the cycles?




Everything living goes through it, or rather is a stage of it.  Since there's no end here the process is something that gradually occurs over millions of years...no "one" goes through it, we as a species do.


--------------------
*+_Charos_+*

"Be me, for a little while"
--Eli

My Deviantart Page
My Youtube Page



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblemozhual
Amateur Omnologist
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 283
Loc: New England
Re: Evolution [Re: Chronic7]
    #11235826 - 10/12/09 10:43 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

So, who what isit that is evolving?




Subatomic particles > atomic particles > molecules > self-replicating molecules > RNA/DNA > prokaryotes > eukaryotes

That is the current evolution of matter in this universe.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,780
Loc: Swamp
Re: Evolution [Re: mozhual]
    #11236415 - 10/12/09 11:57 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

so, we should really be talking about the evolution of electrons.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblemozhual
Amateur Omnologist
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 283
Loc: New England
Re: Evolution [Re: Cracka_X]
    #11236505 - 10/13/09 12:10 AM (8 years, 11 days ago)

Electrons are one small(or large depending on how you look at it) piece of the puzzle.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Evolution [Re: kennedy]
    #11236591 - 10/13/09 12:26 AM (8 years, 11 days ago)

kennedy, stop trying to derail this thread. The topic is evolution, not "Karellen".


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Evolution [Re: Cracka_X]
    #11236611 - 10/13/09 12:29 AM (8 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Cracka_X said:
so, we should really be talking about the evolution of electrons.



No, we should be talking about the evolution of holons.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Amazon Shop: Scales, Tapestry

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Why evolution isn't a scientific theory.
( 1 2 3 4 ... 13 14 all )
Mr. Mushrooms 10,878 267 04/20/09 05:22 PM
by zouden
* Evolution
( 1 2 3 4 all )
SkorpivoMusterion 7,011 61 12/08/03 05:34 PM
by Anonymous
* The Idea of Evolution is BS
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
World Spirit 12,944 165 07/21/02 11:44 AM
by whiterastahippie
* Falsifying evolution?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Mr. Mushrooms 4,541 102 05/06/09 02:45 PM
by Mr. Mushrooms
* Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough
( 1 2 3 all )
DiploidM 4,046 48 01/04/06 06:32 PM
by BlueCoyote
* Christian website on evolution
( 1 2 3 all )
Swami 3,152 54 01/18/05 10:48 PM
by vampirism
* Our Point of Origin: Life and Observation AlCapwn 496 10 12/29/08 04:19 PM
by AlCapwn
* Evolution: Prove it scientifcally and make $250,000
( 1 2 all )
dblaney 3,552 29 04/27/07 05:22 PM
by SneezingPenis

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
2,222 topic views. 0 members, 5 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Gaiana.nl
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.061 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 21 queries.