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 niteowl
GrandPaw
 
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: 
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 Re: Evolutionary changes  [Re: Phluck]
#3854749 - 03/01/05 10:15 PM (18 years, 29 days ago) |
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True, but they are already made
Look at it from a productivity POV.(Occam's Razor?) The eggs are already made, wrapped and ready to go. The sperm are in a constant state of production.
It would take much less energy to "alter" the genes that are in production, than it would be to go thru every egg and unwrap, rewire, re-wrap and put back into production.
Face it men are easier to manipulate. 
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 Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 month, 24 days
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
#3854781 - 03/01/05 10:22 PM (18 years, 29 days ago) |
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It would take much less energy to "alter" the genes that are in production, than it would be to go thru every egg and unwrap, rewire, re-wrap and put back into production.
Well, this doesn't make any sense though. We know that the changes in the sperm aren't consistant. No 2 sperm change in the same way, genetic damage is just as easily done to eggs as to any other cell... and you don't need to unwrap, rewire, and rewrap to make a genetic change.
Seriously though, if you're really interested in speculating on genetics, get some books out, and read about it.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
#3854820 - 03/01/05 10:29 PM (18 years, 29 days ago) |
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Now who is right?
Both are, actually. The sperm all come from the same genetics, so redgreenvines is correct in that, but they all have different configurations, so I'm right in asserting that they are all different. No conflict here.
The primary point that I have been trying to make is that the "mutation/adaptation/evolution" is NOT a random occurrence.
You have offered no evidence for this point, so it is moot.
I am not trying to debunk any science (contrary to popular belief). Your telling me that evolution is completely random, and Im saying that "God" is the one responsible for the direction that the evolution takes.
As no one can agree on exactly what God is, this statement is meaningless.
Lets go back to the cold adaptation example. Lets say the temp gets drastically cold and the people of the earth "pray" for it not to be cold; "Oh my God its fugin cold! Why oh why is it so cold?"
Just like I've prayed for a million dollars? God never answered my prayers.
God (or Mother Nature) hears our pain and "fans the flames of change". Guiding our evolution. The easiest way to make the needed "evolutionary change" is to alter the genetic code of the MALES.
Even supposing that God guided our evolution, there is no reason why he would choose males over females in this manner.
His code is being written all the time.
Wrong. The sperm a man can produce is already determined by his genes. It does not take a big evolutionary leap within his testicles.
A little nudge in the right direction and BAM the code is altered. Now the offspring will have a higher tolerance for the cold.
Doesn't work that way. Sorry. Evolution is a much more gradual process than that.
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
#3854866 - 03/01/05 10:40 PM (18 years, 29 days ago) |
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heh, god...not by chance 
here's some infor on meoisis, mitosis, and darwins theory and some questions that arise that can be cleared up.
darwins theory is based on three propositions
1) the ability for a population of a species to expand is infinite, while the world around it that can sustain this expansion is finite.. this is what causes the struggle between species.
2) organisms vary in physical qualities, this has to do with the reproduction and how well each species can reproduce.
3) these variations are inherited by offspring from their "parents"
back when the theory first appeared. the theory was very contriversial because of variation and inheritence could not explained thorougly at that time. back then they thought the idea of "blending" as good, but this would effectively deplete a population of organisms of all variation. at first, blending looked like a good idea, but as time would go on, blending would have bad consequences for any kind of variation, as decendencts merely lose their variation (we'd all become grey )
Mr gregor mendel showed that while physical characteristics may show some blending, the inherited material, mainly genes, remains the same. since this is the case, how would a blending mode of inheritance ever result in anything other than a population of greys?
here's how you know there are discrete traits, my mom has blue eyes while my father has brown eyes. this doesn't mean I have bluish brownish eyes, I have blue. in this case my MOTHER had the dominate gene, not my father. so clearly here your theory goes out the window. but lets look closer at what Mr Gregor Mendal found.
Meosis is the production of sex cells and mitosis is cell division. Mitrotic divisions occur throughout the body. the result of the split are two cells containing a set of chromosomes each. meosis only occurs within the sex cells. this process divids one cell into two, each with a diploid set of chromosomes. this cell divids once again without a corresponding division DNA, thus resulting in the final sperm or egg. again further showing your theory of changing a man's cell as irrelevant.
also, during meiosis, similar chromosomes may change material in the genetic recombination even called "crossing over" its liek a deck of cards, it provides a constant variation in the cell shuffle 
this process has been observed.
so great, genes exist....then what?
how does this impact the organisms living here.
what is known is that all the processes which goern and organisms growth, development, and maintanence are ultimately based in a code located in the chromosomes. this is called DNA (for short)
i must stop here so I know you clearly understand what is being defined and what is going on before we continue.
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Silversoul]
#3854943 - 03/01/05 11:04 PM (18 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
Lets go back to the cold adaptation example. Lets say the temp gets drastically cold and the people of the earth "pray" for it not to be cold; "Oh my God its fugin cold! Why oh why is it so cold?"
Just like I've prayed for a million dollars? God never answered my prayers.
God could care less about your personal gain, only your spiritual growth. His/Her main interest is in helping us become better souls. Life is a series of challenges, if some challenges get to great we may need help.
Quote:
Paradigm said:
His code is being written all the time.
Wrong. The sperm a man can produce is already determined by his genes. It does not take a big evolutionary leap within his testicles.
Let me refer you to this
Quote:
Paradigm said:
Now who is right?
Both are, actually. The sperm all come from the same genetics, so redgreenvines is correct in that, but they all have different configurations, so I'm right in asserting that they are all different. No conflict here.
It is these different configurations that God can influence, aiding in our evolution.
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Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: kaiowas]
#3854959 - 03/01/05 11:07 PM (18 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
kaiowas said:
so great, genes exist....then what?
how does this impact the organisms living here.
The genetic codes your are refering to......only show us HOW things work not WHY
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Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
#3854987 - 03/01/05 11:15 PM (18 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said:
Quote:
Paradigm said:
Lets go back to the cold adaptation example. Lets say the temp gets drastically cold and the people of the earth "pray" for it not to be cold; "Oh my God its fugin cold! Why oh why is it so cold?"
Just like I've prayed for a million dollars? God never answered my prayers.
God could care less about your personal gain, only your spiritual growth. His/Her main interest is in helping us become better souls. Life is a series of challenges, if some challenges get to great we may need help.
With a million dollars, I could donate large amounts to charity, relieving great amounts of suffering. Being warm is petty compared to that spiritual gain.
Quote:
Quote:
Paradigm said:
His code is being written all the time.
Wrong. The sperm a man can produce is already determined by his genes. It does not take a big evolutionary leap within his testicles.
Let me refer you to this
Quote:
Paradigm said:
Now who is right?
Both are, actually. The sperm all come from the same genetics, so redgreenvines is correct in that, but they all have different configurations, so I'm right in asserting that they are all different. No conflict here.
It is these different configurations that God can influence, aiding in our evolution.
The different configurations are essentially the same is if chosen at random. If God is influencing it, then he sure is indecisive.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
#3855015 - 03/01/05 11:24 PM (18 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said:
Quote:
kaiowas said:
so great, genes exist....then what?
how does this impact the organisms living here.
The genetic codes your are refering to......only show us HOW things work not WHY
In order for there to be a why(purpose), then you have to presuppose that there is some entity which gave it that purpose. There is no reason, other than wishful thinking, to think that such an entity had some purpose in mind. To try to answer the question "why," or even to ask it, is pure speculation.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Silversoul]
#3855254 - 03/02/05 12:23 AM (18 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
With a million dollars, I could donate large amounts to charity, relieving great amounts of suffering.
Quote:
Paradigm said:
If God is influencing it, then he sure is indecisive.
I think He has done a pretty good job(with our physical form)
Our spirit is what we need to work on now.
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Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Silversoul]
#3855298 - 03/02/05 12:33 AM (18 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
To try to answer the question "why," or even to ask it, is pure speculation.
What?
Dont ask why?
Isnt that the driving force behind science/life?
WHY
How can you not ask why?????
Asking why is how we learn....
The sun comes up every day right.
Sure.
Why?
Because everything is revolving around the earth. Thats why.
If no body ever questioned the "facts of the times"(by asking why) we would still be in the stone age.
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Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
#3855354 - 03/02/05 12:47 AM (18 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said:
Quote:
Paradigm said:
To try to answer the question "why," or even to ask it, is pure speculation.
What?
Dont ask why?
Isnt that the driving force behind science/life?
WHY
How can you not ask why?????
Asking why is how we learn....
The sun comes up every day right.
Sure.
Why?
Because everything is revolving around the earth. Thats why.
If no body ever questioned the "facts of the times"(by asking why) we would still be in the stone age.
different than the why as paradigm described as "purpose"
see when you said "everything is revolving around the earth," I think you mean the earth (not everything) is revolving around the sun (not earth as you stated). and this isn't why, this is how. sure the earth revolves the around the sun...but you are asking, why does it revolve around the sun.
who knows
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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zorbman
blarrr
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: kaiowas]
#3855388 - 03/02/05 12:59 AM (18 years, 28 days ago) |
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alls i know is im getting dizzy!  
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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
#3855422 - 03/02/05 01:12 AM (18 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said:
Quote:
Paradigm said:
With a million dollars, I could donate large amounts to charity, relieving great amounts of suffering.
What's so funny? Do you not recognize the vast amounts of good that could be achieved with large amounts of money?
Quote:
Quote:
Paradigm said:
If God is influencing it, then he sure is indecisive.
I think He has done a pretty good job(with our physical form)
Over time, the random results we get with our genetic configurations end up working in our favor, the same way that the random results of casino slot machines end up working in the casino's favor when they're all added up. This is no indication of a divine will. If God exists, he is quite the gambler, despite Einstein's objections.
Quote:
Our spirit is what we need to work on now.
Starting with the definition thereof.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
#3855435 - 03/02/05 01:15 AM (18 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said:
What?
Dont ask why?
Isnt that the driving force behind science/life?
No. As kaiowas pointed out, science asks "how" not "why." "Why" is the question for religion and philosophy. Science has no use for it, as it cannot be measured.
Quote:
If no body ever questioned the "facts of the times"(by asking why) we would still be in the stone age.
Questioning facts has indeed gotten us far, but science cannot tell us why, only how.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Silversoul]
#3855704 - 03/02/05 02:52 AM (18 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
Questioning facts has indeed gotten us far, but science cannot tell us why, only how.
I never said science could tell us why.
I just told you a theory of how and why that you cant disprove.
Arent all theories, facts untill they are disproved?
Isnt the theory of gravity still holding up? Yea, no one had disproved it yet.
Prove my "theory" wrong.
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Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 34,322
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
#3856029 - 03/02/05 06:53 AM (18 years, 28 days ago) |
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what a verbal scrapper you are.
well at least you are getting a lot of attention without threatening to leave every other tuesday.
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deafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
#3856072 - 03/02/05 07:12 AM (18 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
I just told you a theory of how and why that you cant disprove.
Arent all theories, facts untill they are disproved?
Isnt the theory of gravity still holding up? Yea, no one had disproved it yet.
Prove my "theory" wrong.
Prove my theory wrong - the universe was created when a small, pink 12 dimensional flea named cyril burped. Is that fact?
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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I like to get some new ideas stirring around.
None of the post I have made in the past few days were "flights of fancy". I have talked to many people about these things, and wanted to bring them here, to see what kind of response I would get.
Ohyea.....
I will still be here next tuesday.
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Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: deafpanda]
#3856146 - 03/02/05 07:34 AM (18 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
deafpanda said:
Prove my theory wrong - the universe was created when a small, pink 12 dimensional flea named cyril burped. Is that fact?
How cute.....a whole universe in a small space.
Have you ever read "A Brief History of Time", by Stephen Hawking. You could very well be right. The pink, 12 dimensional flea, and the universe in a burp.
However, I have taken a existing theory (evolution) and expanded upon it. In a fairly clear and simple way. I havent disagreed with any of the existing science behind their theory, just "tweaked" it a little.
Your "universe in a burp theory" is possible acording to some of the big thinkers of our time.
But.......
it sounds more like a "flight of fancy" you just came up with to sound witty.
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Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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deafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
#3856151 - 03/02/05 07:37 AM (18 years, 28 days ago) |
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Just demonstrating that theories are not facts until proved wrong, they are theories until they have amassed significant corroborative evidence.
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