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Invisibleniteowl
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Evolutionary changes
    #3850795 - 03/01/05 06:37 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

IF the theory of evolution is correct, then all evolutionary change can only come from men.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3850831 - 03/01/05 07:08 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Evolution has always been going on, but humans haven't always existed...therfore you are wrong, unless you have some other idea in the back of your mind?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3850849 - 03/01/05 07:35 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

What about the theory of evolution states that the only evolutionary changes can come from men?

IF the laws of gravity are true, then bowling balls should fall up. <-- Makes about as much sense.

The theory of evolution and natural selection does not claim that evolution is a straight line, or that humans are somehow the pinneacle of evolution, or that only the most complex organisms mutate, or anything even remotely like that. I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here though.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Phluck]
    #3850851 - 03/01/05 07:37 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

are there gender in viruses?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Gomp]
    #3850852 - 03/01/05 07:39 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

No.

Why?


--------------------
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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Phluck]
    #3850861 - 03/01/05 07:55 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Think about this.

Women are born with all the eggs they will ever have. This is a FACT. That's why they go thru menopause. They run out of eggs.

Men produce new sperm on a daily basis.

If any genetic change is going to happen it can only come from the man. Im not being chauvinistic here, just looking at the facts.

For example....

If the weather begins to get colder and we need to adapt to the new environment the change cant come from the woman, her eggs are already formed at birth. Only the mans ability to adapt will get "programed" into his new sperm, causing his offspring to have a better ability to cope with the colder weather.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3850873 - 03/01/05 08:08 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Well, that would be true if Darwin got it completely wrong and we didn't adapt through natural selection.

Adaptation isn't a change in response to a need. It's not like having sharp claws would help animals, therefore they grow sharp claws. It's sharp claws help animals, therefore the animals with sharp claws survive.

You might want to read up on natural selection: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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OfflineGomp
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Phluck]
    #3850882 - 03/01/05 08:20 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
No.

Why?




then if a virus can evolve, you got "proof" of change can not come only from men?

:sun:


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Gomp]
    #3850884 - 03/01/05 08:22 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yup!


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Phluck]
    #3850889 - 03/01/05 08:26 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Even Darwin said it wasnt just natural selection that produced evolutionary change.

Quote:

This theory does not make any specific claims as to how this process works, although more recent scientific discoveries in genetics explain several mechanisms that occur in the process of reproduction




Quote:

When members of a species become separated, such as geographically, they face different environments, and tend to develop in different directions.




In order to adapt to their new environment some sort of genetic change had to occur. Only the mans ability to adapt can change the genetic code of their offspring.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3850899 - 03/01/05 08:41 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Darwin didn't know about genetics.

Eggs have just as many mutations as sperm do. In nature, mutations don't just happen to be advantageous. Most mutations are not useful. Every now and then there are useful ones that help a species survive, and those ones are passed on to more offspring because the creature with the advantageous mutation is better able to reproduce.

Of course when species are separated they develop in different directions... different animals will survive based on their environment.

I'm seriously not trying to be a jerk here, or sound arrogant, but you obviously don't have a full grasp of natural selection and evolution. Please don't take offense to this, it's an opportunity to learn.

Don't worry, this is perfectly normal, it seems like barely anyone has spent the time to learn it, even though it's not all that complicated. I'm thinking of making a thread that gives an explanation, and making it a sticky, because I'm constantly having to explain it in here.

Adaptation is not the magical aquisition of a trait that was needed. It is when, out of sheer dumb luck, some genes get kinda fucked up in such a way that they give the species a useful advantage. All eggs contain some little mutations(aka, little genetic fuck ups), as do all sperm. If the advantage is useful, the creature will be better at surviving and reproducing, and all of its offspring will carry that trait.


--------------------
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http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Phluck]
    #3850913 - 03/01/05 08:53 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

So what your saying is that evolutionary adaptation is just "dumb luck". That their isnt any thing we do to "adapt" to our changing environment.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3850923 - 03/01/05 09:03 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Exactly.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Phluck]
    #3850944 - 03/01/05 09:16 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Sounds like a pretty weak theory. How can someone looking at a situation from a scientific point of view believe in "dumb luck". Their has to be some other driving force other than "dumb luck".

Sounds like the scientist cant think up a better reason so they contribute it to "dumb luck" or "coincidence" (because they are constantly trying to disprove the existence of God).

I have never believed in "coincidence". All things happen for a reason.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3850958 - 03/01/05 09:23 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

There are two theories of evolution. Lamarkian
http://www.uqac.uquebec.ca/dse/3psy206/auteurs/lamarck.html

and Darwinian
http://www.origins.tv/darwin/evolution.htm

A classic example of how they differ is the explanation of how the giraffe got a long neck. Lamark said that after years of stretching its neck to reach leaves at the tops of trees, the giraffes body would change and these changes would be passed on to its offspring.

Darwin said that there is variation within a given population, the giraffe who is born with a longer neck will be able to reach the leaves at the top of the tree, and will therefor survive to produce lots of baby giraffes with long necks, while the giraffe born with a shorter neck will starve to death before he can reproduce more short-necked giraffes. Therefore over time, all giraffes will be born with long necks.

The Darwinian version is the theory of evolution accepted by scientists today. Under Darwinian evolution, the male and female are equally responsible for adaptation. The genes do not change over time in either sex; one can only pass on what one has inherited, male or female.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3850992 - 03/01/05 09:40 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Sounds like a pretty weak theory. How can someone looking at a situation from a scientific point of view believe in "dumb luck". Their has to be some other driving force other than "dumb luck".

Well, there is, kinda, natural selection. Mutations happen all the time, this is extremely well documented.

The fact that some mutations provide an advantage IS the force that allows them to be passed on.

Sounds like the scientist cant think up a better reason so they contribute it to "dumb luck" or "coincidence" (because they are constantly trying to disprove the existence of God).

Well, also the fact that it has been observed to actually happen on various scales.

I didn't realize scientists were constantly trying to disprove God, as I've never once seen a single study which made this attempt. Care to point one out to me?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: shroomydan]
    #3850996 - 03/01/05 09:42 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

It should be noted that the Lamarckian version of evolution was discarded because the mechanism behind it has never been demonstrated, while Darwinian selection has.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Phluck]
    #3851004 - 03/01/05 09:48 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

It should be noted that no scientist is going to call evolution a "coincidence" or "dumb luck", because that's not really an accurate description of the process.

It's actually a very rational and well laid out theory that is not only elegant, it has been observed, and it makes sense. The only way the theory of evolution could look like a cop out is if you didn't have a good grasp of what it actually is, and why scientists have this idea.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Phluck]
    #3851113 - 03/01/05 10:47 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
It's actually a very rational and well laid out theory that is not only elegant, it has been observed, and it makes sense. The only way the theory of evolution could look like a cop out is if you didn't have a good grasp of what it actually is, and why scientists have this idea.




At least we agree that it is only a "theory" and no way to prove it. To say that we have observed "evolution" is a bit of a stretch. We have observed mutations in nature but cant prove that the mutation came from a random event or from our ability to adapt.

I believe that our ability to adapt has much more to do with our "evolution" than random mutations. That the ability to adapt to the environment is the driving force behind the mutations.


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851135 - 03/01/05 10:55 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Actually, isn't natural selection and Darwinian evolution HIGHLY documented? I was under the impression that this moved on past pseudoscience theory into solidified fact some years ago. You got any info for this Phluck?

BTW - This thread is great.


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