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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Evolution and intelligence?
    #9476491 -

For the sake of this thread and so as not to get side-tracked (heh - like that won't happen!) we shall assume that evolution is factual and use your own defintion of intelligence. This thread started from a discussion about the possibility of intelligent alien life in the universe. But is it a given even if there is other life out there?

If intelligence is some sort of natural by-product of enough time and evolutionary pressure, and not a fluke, then why are sharks relatively unchanged for 50,000,000 years instead of having developed lasers and the ability to build breathing apparatus to explore and hunt on land?

I am only somewhat joking. The usual response is: they didn't need to. Fair enough, but there is no evidence that our ancestors 'needed to'. Seems they survived quite a long time without it. Let's not forget that many animals 'needed to' develop intelligence and went extinct instead.

What is the X factor? (NO YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SAY MUSHROOMS! :nonono:)


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (12/22/08 03:41 AM)

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9476540 -

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........
..............


............ Love? :rofl: No wait! Aliens!


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9476624 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
... then why are sharks relatively unchanged for 50,000,000 years instead of having developed lasers and the ability to build breathing apparatus to explore and hunt on land?
...


in a word, ahemmm,
they did.
we are those sharks
or rather the descendants of those few sharks that did get bony skeletons, that did breathe air, that did lay big eggs, that did become warm blooded, that did transfer to live birth, that did feed their young from teats, that did walk on hind fins, that did develop oppose-able thumbs and a larger cranium, that did develop language writing and pictorial communications, and that did nearly blow themselves up trying to prove who has the nicest eyes.

not every shark participated in this gradual process, but each accidental opportunity that can be exploited with vitality is worth holding onto.

can we say it will happen elsewhere; yes, it is likely, given time and good chromosomes or the equivalent.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9476913 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
The usual response is: they didn't need to. Fair enough, but there is no evidence that our ancestors 'needed to'. Seems they survived quite a long time without it. 


Actually, there is. The theory I heard is that it's all to do with the grasses competing with the trees. Grasses are a relatively recent development. They can compete quite well with forests, and large parts of Africa became grassland (savannah) in place of jungle. This put pressure on jungle-dwelling animals such as the primates. Faced with dwindling living space, some ventured out into the savannah, a place dominated by the apex predator of Africa: big cats. Those primates were essentially forced to live in a place they weren't used to, competing against animals that could thrive there. The solution was to evolve intelligence.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: zouden]
    #9477064 -

zouden said:
... The solution was to evolve intelligence.


please do not use this word as if it is intentional or a "logical" response to conditions.
those monkeys were already smart.
all of the increases in intelligence and variance in body morphology are the result of evolution,
read into that thousands of mutations with the occasional one being non-fatal.
evolution is that type of accident, which is why it takes a long (and unpredictible period of) time for a shark to have descendents like us.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: zouden]
    #9477534 -

I didn't really phrase my opening statement to represent what I was going on about. I was thinking about the Drake Equation and SETI and the assumption that any planet stable enough for a long enough time will develop intelligence. With a sample size of one (the earth) is is impossible to know either way at this time, but I doubt that even given 'proper' conditions that life will generally somehow 'steer' either intentionally or accidentally, towards higher intelligence past a certain point: i.e. the ability to acquire food and energy, reproduce and generally survive.


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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9477856 -

that line of questioning is several layers of theoretical built on theoretical, I am surprised that you are eager to go that far just to turn around as say that there is not enough data to be sure.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9477858 -

seems to me the leap from stone to shark is a super enormous leap compared to the leap from shark to human.

so why did we go the extra mile?

i think the usual response is the complex social system that monkeys have.

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: Freedom]
    #9478023 -

shark is enough?
cockroach - enough?


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9478048 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
For the sake of this thread and so as not to get side-tracked (heh - like that won't happen!) we shall assume that evolution is factual and use your own defintion of intelligence. This thread started from a discussion about the possibility of intelligent alien life in the universe. But is it a given even if there is other life out there?

If intelligence is some sort of natural by-product of enough time and evolutionary pressure, and not a fluke, then why are sharks relatively unchanged for 50,000,000 years instead of having developed lasers and the ability to build breathing apparatus to explore and hunt on land?

I am only somewhat joking. The usual response is: they didn't need to. Fair enough, but there is no evidence that our ancestors 'needed to'. Seems they survived quite a long time without it. Let's not forget that many animals 'needed to' develop intelligence and went extinct instead.

What is the X factor? (NO YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SAY MUSHROOMS! :nonono:)


No X factor, just chance.  If a meteorite hadn't hit, Earth would still be reigned by dinosaurs acting on pure instinct and reptilian impulses.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: deCypher]
    #9478075 -

i can't imagine when enough's enough

i've been filled to the brim at times but if I was bigger how big would i have to be?

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: deCypher]
    #9478091 -

deCypher said:
No X factor, just chance.  If a meteorite hadn't hit, Earth would still be reigned by dinosaurs acting on pure instinct and reptilian impulses.


No, you would just have dinosaurs working at walmart.

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: Freedom]
    #9478109 -

evolution is growing life - life is the shaped by the environment - it's a resonance of the environment but it grows and changes so much faster. A mountain can just sit there for a billion years, eroded but relatively stable while evolution zips by, the mountain stable exerting it's pressure.

It's the fast cycles of life and death, each life a resonance of the environment. A human mind is now like meta evolution - formed by the environment in much the same way as the species itself, so the cycles can now go even faster in a human mind or here in the hive mind, so we have a more precise fit to the environment.

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: Freedom]
    #9478148 -

Leave it to philosophers to make even the simple concept of evolution extraordinarily complicated.  :tongue:

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: deCypher]
    #9478157 -

deCypher said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
For the sake of this thread and so as not to get side-tracked (heh - like that won't happen!) we shall assume that evolution is factual and use your own defintion of intelligence. This thread started from a discussion about the possibility of intelligent alien life in the universe. But is it a given even if there is other life out there?

If intelligence is some sort of natural by-product of enough time and evolutionary pressure, and not a fluke, then why are sharks relatively unchanged for 50,000,000 years instead of having developed lasers and the ability to build breathing apparatus to explore and hunt on land?

I am only somewhat joking. The usual response is: they didn't need to. Fair enough, but there is no evidence that our ancestors 'needed to'. Seems they survived quite a long time without it. Let's not forget that many animals 'needed to' develop intelligence and went extinct instead.

What is the X factor? (NO YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SAY MUSHROOMS! :nonono:)


No X factor, just chance.  If a meteorite hadn't hit, Earth would still be reigned by dinosaurs acting on pure instinct and reptilian impulses.


Highly unlikely, given the changes in global temperatures during the 65 million years since the impact which is theorized to have caused a mass extinction of many species.  The large dinosaurs were adapted to a VERY specific temperature range, atmospheric composition, habitat, diet, etc...

The smallest dinosaurs did not become extinct, as they were capable of adapting to the changes in their environment...we now call them "birds."  :grin:

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: Veritas]
    #9478162 -

Yeah, I'm not saying we would have dinosaurs roaming around now that would be identical to those 65 million years ago, but I'm not so sure that they would necessarily evolve intelligence... any change in species characteristics would be more along the lines of body weight and environmental adaptation.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: deCypher]
    #9478174 -

Dinosaurs were intelligent, to the best of our ability to determine said quality.  :lol:  I've become a bit of a dinosaur buff, as my youngest was obsessed with them from age 18 months until age 7.  Most of what the public "knows" about dinosaurs is incorrect.

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: Veritas]
    #9478178 -

Intelligent in the human sense of being able to comprehend our own consciousness, that is.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: deCypher]
    #9478229 -

Oh, you mean "self-aware"?  Tough to say.  The small mammals which survived the mass extinction probably had to be pretty crafty to thrive and reproduce, so we had a good genetic foundation.

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Re: Evolution and intelligence? [Re: deCypher]
    #9478250 -

Intelligence could be the capacity to learn new skills to survive in the rapid changing environment. No time to write down in the DNA.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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