Home | Community | Message Board

MycologyNow.com Spores
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds, Feminized Cannabis Seeds, High THC Strains, USA West Coast Strains   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
Offlinedjd586
Underpants Gnome

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 1,655
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Intelligent Design
    #2185800 - 12/17/03 06:48 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Just wondering how you guys feel about the subject. This concept seems to come up more and more in my field of work now-a-days. A conference that I attended over the weekend had many discussions over the topic... some of the scientists were very convincing. I find it very odd that something so objective would dominate a subjective scientiffic conference.

The concept is hard to accept it as a scientist, but it's pretty hard to discard. A few of my colleuges totally adhear to the concept and they are pretty persuasive in trying to get me to buy into it. I've read many scientific journals and abstracts on it (mostly dealing with mathematical statistics and patterns of DNA)... But there's just something about it that I don't want to grasps and adhear to. Just seems to me like some of the scientific community got together and decided because they couldn't explain how certain things just work by chance, they used a "higher power" as their scape goat. Not that I don't beileve in a higher power... but it's sort of hard to be objective when I've spent the last 8 years of my life seeking subjective biological truths.

Perhaps there's really only so much we can learn about something before we just have to admitt that explaination defies rational scientiffic solutions.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 6,220
Loc: : Gringo
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: djd586]
    #2185823 - 12/17/03 06:54 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I always thought intelligent design was a form of resignation. It's an idea for people who couldn't handle creationism or evolution. It also is a term that has potential to affirm it's consequence.

Life created by a god would have intelligent and complex design. Since human design is intelligent and complex, god created them.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinedjd586
Underpants Gnome

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 1,655
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2185855 - 12/17/03 07:08 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Intelligent design in the biological community refers to if there's is information and the information adhears to some sort of recognizable pattern, that that info and pattern cannot be due to random chance but rather the creation of something intelligent.


--------------------

Phase 1... collect underpants... phase 2...??? ... Phase 3 - PROFIT!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 6,220
Loc: : Gringo
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: djd586]
    #2185875 - 12/17/03 07:15 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

if there's is information and the information adhears to some sort of pattern




I think it's wrong to think of dna coding as information. It is just the combination of four chemicals and it's result is achieved through cause and effect. Things can occur because of cause and effect with no intelligent creator.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinedjd586
Underpants Gnome

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 1,655
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2185918 - 12/17/03 07:32 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with things being able to occur without cause or effect... remember, I'm not trying to supprt the concept.

DNA is information though. Tons of information. But I believe it's a compound of evolution. I am a biologist by profession and not one of my collegues would disagree that DNA is not an informational component.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineEvilGir
Im the on coming storm

Registered: 11/26/01
Posts: 1,301
Loc: Planet Irk
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: djd586]
    #2185933 - 12/17/03 07:39 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

>think it's wrong to think of dna coding as information. It is just the combination of four chemicals and it's result is achieved through cause and effect. Things can occur because of cause and effect with no intelligent creator


Well Dna is just a mathamaticle program that happens to be able to evolve its self.
And as the nubers get bigger more complex life forms are formed. Just think every time DNA replicates its self there are very very small changes, these eventuialy start to become more dominante as they are passed on.


--------------------
Fighting the man the best way I can.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: djd586]
    #2186108 - 12/17/03 08:45 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

ok I'm only in college now, but really does it need to even be said? Most of the time in physics (i know this isn't biology but physics has patterns too) we really aren't even concerned about if it happens by chance or not.  we have initial conditions and we have equations and when the inital conditions are put into the equation (along with a bit of manipulation :wink:) we should find whatever we are trying to find.

It's like wasted breath. for instance, why potential energy goes into kinetic energy when an object moves is far beyond for me to say.  i know it's the conservation law of energy, but who am I to say that energy in=energy out was created by "god" or a higher power.

look, they have to convince you, which doesn't necessarily mean proof.

because of the fact that the "think" they know what IS should show you how much they don't really know.


Edited by kaiowas (12/17/03 08:47 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 3 days
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: djd586]
    #2186111 - 12/17/03 08:45 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

DJD, I just want to make sure I'm clear on what you're saying...

Are you saying that when the scientific community can't explain something using physical evidence or logic or something like that, it uses God or "magic" or a "higher power" to explain it?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineEvilGir
Im the on coming storm

Registered: 11/26/01
Posts: 1,301
Loc: Planet Irk
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Frog]
    #2186160 - 12/17/03 09:01 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

sounds a bit like to me the 16th centuary to me if you cant explaine blaim it on a god. But i would of thought that the scientific comunity would think that there is no god only things that cant be explained yet.


--------------------
Fighting the man the best way I can.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: EvilGir]
    #2186190 - 12/17/03 09:12 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"sounds a bit like to me the 16th centuary to me if you cant explaine blaim it on a god. But i would of thought that the scientific comunity would think that there is no god only things that cant be explained yet. "

no, I mean there are, but there's so many people now.  it really shouldn't be the focus when they are doing work because it doesn't matter, as far as work goes.  science is to some people the way to see how complex god really is, and such, and so on....we've heard it before :smile:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: Intelligent Design [Re: djd586]
    #2186663 - 12/18/03 12:18 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe it is matter and energy itself that has intelligence. The very fact that matter and energy obey strict laws shows some form of "intelligent design". This doesn't necessarily have to be from a source separate from the matter/energy.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 3 days
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: ]
    #2186738 - 12/18/03 01:07 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I think it's called "magical thinking", of which I am guilty, when things happen that don't seem to have an explanation grounded in logic.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinedjd586
Underpants Gnome

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 1,655
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Frog]
    #2186751 - 12/18/03 01:24 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
DJD, I just want to make sure I'm clear on what you're saying...

Are you saying that when the scientific community can't explain something using physical evidence or logic or something like that, it uses God or "magic" or a "higher power" to explain it?




No, I'm saying when subjective truths can't be reached, objective answers are sought.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 3 days
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: djd586]
    #2186758 - 12/18/03 01:30 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Oh.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: djd586]
    #2187074 - 12/18/03 05:18 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I know our languages didn't form by random..

Its a strange thing to think about. When you think of trees, and the complex systems that keep them alive, and when you think of the oxygen/carbon exchange.... I mean, how did these systems come to be like this?

At one time it was so very simple, and one electron moved one way, and like this movement created a reaction from something else, some sort of interplay, and things went from there...

I mean, we create music, and it is intelligent design.. And what about computer code? It used to be combinations of on and off, plus and minus. Now look at it. (after previewing this post, I would like to add that I believe it is a possibillity to trace all of these complex computer languages back to the simple "on and off" code... shouldn't it be possible to trace life back to its most basic.. um, don't know what word to use... essence, or something? *shrugs*)

Of course, music, languages, they were gradually created by us, we basically evolved them... But what about ourselves? How can things evolve into what we have now without some sort of order?

I mean, you take a hundred different musicians, without any sort of training and education, put them in a room, and you aren't really going to get much for beautiful symphonies. Some sort of order has to be established first, a way of communicating (musical notation), and so on...

Is it a possibillity that things just evolved on their own, from some sort of simple state? I mean, if it was some sort of simple system, what eventually caused it to start growing, branching out? Its like taking a seed and putting it into the soil... doesn't there have to be some original spark of life? Some sort of catalyst to cause change?

Hehe, sorry, I'm basically just thinking, this isn't really something I have really thought about like this before...

I guess I'll end by saying that we all know that all of these systems on Earth, they are all interconnected... everything here is one. There is so much interaction between everything here, it is really a mesh network, everything connected to everything... sort of like mycelium. You can think of the way a factory is set up, the way your brain is set up, the way your lungs are set up, the way that a tree's roots are set up....

Think of the way the things that we actually have been around enough to see change have changed... like our network of communication. It used to be messengers. Then telegraph, radio and telephone, now computers and mobile phones... think of the way things are built nowadays, the network of factories, buying parts from other factories... it all used to be some guys in a shop bending metals and women at home knitting. No marketing division, no production and no management...

Life seems to be the spark that makes some simple system, uncapable of any real function, branch out and evolve, becoming a tree.... (hhm, "tree of life" :grin:). What it all comes down to what this spark is. Some sort of intelligent entities gift? I don't know if we will ever know, but we can look at the nature of this system and how it is branching out, building connections within itself, and we can look at the similarities between different parts of the main system, and we can sort of see that we are suspossed to keep changing, keep reaching out, further and further, into the unknown....

Hehe, sorry for being all crazy, I'm not too well versed in science and everything.... just some thoughts to think on, I guess, as they were the thoughts I was thinking on. :grin: Ever think about some new subject and type at the same time? Sort of like exploring.  :nut:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineShizpow
Street Samurai

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 83
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2187244 - 12/18/03 07:29 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"cannot be due to random chance"

I think this phrase about sums up the problem with the intelligent design hypothesis. There is an assumption that because evidence is lacking, evidence does not exist. These two things are very different in reality. For instance...Prior to Einstein, there were small errors in the calculated orbits of some celestial bodies, and they were unexplainable because the majority of bodies moved according to the theory's predictions. These were extremely small, but over time they accumulated to a point where we could see that the working theories were insufficient to explain everything that we had observed. Then along came Einstein with a much more powerful theory of gravitation and his predictions matched the observations. A mystery was cleared up without the need for God or intelligent design. All that was needed was a sharper mind and a little time.

It's the same thing with evolution. Just because we haven't yet found a complete workable theory of evolution is NO reason at all to assume that one does not exist. And to me, that's what intelligent design is...just another religiously motivated stopgap to fill in temporary voids in our knowledge because people desperately need to pretend that they know everything, even if that "everything" needs revising on a constant basis.


--------------------
If you cut a face lengthwise, urinate on it, and trample on it with straw sandles, it is said that the skin will come off. This was heard by the priest Gyojaku when he was in Kyoto. It is information to be treasured.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Shizpow]
    #2187248 - 12/18/03 07:34 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Man, you had me worried that it was me that said "cannot be due to random chance", because I was sure I didn't say such. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinedjd586
Underpants Gnome

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 1,655
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Shizpow]
    #2187781 - 12/18/03 01:50 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The concept of Intelligent Design has nothing really to do with evoulution. Intelligent densign accepts evolution and needs evloulution. In a way, they both blance themselves out on a scale. Intelligent Design is just an objective way of looking at DNA. We know a lot about genetics... we've come leaps and bounds in the last 15 years alone. We have working theories on how most processes work on the genomic level and we don't really question the science behind it all because on the most part we have subjective answers. It's not a question if there is or isn't evoultion. Evolution does exist. Evolution isn't a master plan from a higher power. Evolution isn't a genetic goal of DNA. Evolution just happens... by complete random chance. Many scientist have just come to a certain point... They say to themselves... "Ok, we know that there's DNA... Ok, we know there is evolution. We know how DNA and evolution ultimatly works. But where and how did this DNA just randomly come together?" From there, the science of genetics has branched off into two schools of thought. A subjective view of primative DNA formation, and a objective view that DNA was created by some sort of intelligence.

Now since this new school of thought has emerged, even though it is an objective search, many scientist have use subjective means to answer this objective question. Ultimatly it comes to a point where science is seaching for a proof of a higher power... not necessarialy God, but something that had the intelligence to create DNA.

I cannot also not state this enough. As of right now, I do not support Intelligent Design scientiffically. I just find it very interesting that many of the people in the scientiffic community have taken so readily to the concept.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

Registered: 10/20/02
Posts: 534
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 2 months, 1 day
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: djd586]
    #2187789 - 12/18/03 02:02 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I heard from a friend who read some paper than the chances that our dna is as effecient as it is is about the chance of a tornado putting together an airplane..  it makes sense, but I suppose in an infinite universe, somewhere, some tornado is putting together an airplane. :wink: :smile:


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: djd586]
    #2187797 - 12/18/03 02:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

How come no one talks of unintelligent design?

1. The inability to scratch one's own back. I want more flexible arms.

2. Hanging the male gentials outside the body where they can get frequently banged about AND putting an enormous concentration of pain receptors there just to remind males of this flawed design.

3. Making a baby's head too big just to cause excrutiating pain to women during child birth.

4. Most of the human race has some spinal problems. A decent human mechanical engineer could have done much better.

5. No body protection from the elements. Where is our fur coat? Our armor?

6. Appendix, baldness, genetic defects, disease... Wah! Wah!

7. What about the avocado? Why is the pit so f***ing big? Need I really continue...?  :rolleyes:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 6,220
Loc: : Gringo
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Swami]
    #2187850 - 12/18/03 02:37 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

1. The inability to scratch one's own back. I want more flexible arms.




opposable thumbs allow you to build a tool for this

Quote:

2. Hanging the male gentials outside the body where they can get frequently banged about AND putting an enormous concentration of pain receptors there just to remind males of this flawed design.




sperm production cannot take place at 98.6 degrees. The genitals hang from the body so that they remain at a slightly cooler temperature.

Quote:

5. No body protection from the elements. Where is our fur coat? Our armor?




Humans first inhabited very warm climates. They slowly migrated to cold regions

Quote:

6. Appendix, baldness, genetic defects, disease... Wah! Wah!




My theory is that baldness is a mechanism of evolution that allows older and less vital humans to be easily recognized.

Now what I cannot figure out, why the HELL is the clitoris on the outside of the genitalia?


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineViveka
refutation bias
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: djd586]
    #2188173 - 12/18/03 05:12 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

From the right perspective, those things (nature for example)which seem to be incredibly complex actually only appear that way because they are exponentially numerous repetitions of simple things.

The grand design of nature which many people explain as "intelligent" is ultimately based on the very simple "golden mean", basically the ratio of 1 to 1.618..... This is non-terminating fraction which can be easily conceptualized by imagining a line AC, bisected at B. AB is to BC the same as BC is to AC. If that mathematical analysis is too linear to wrap your brain around right now, the same ratio is outpictured in the nautilus shell, in trees (which is perhaps why they are so cool whilst tripping), in the way seeds are arranged on a flower head, and in many of the proportions of the human body. Look at the digits of your hand. From your fingertip to your first knuckle to the second to the knuckle on you fist -- golden mean proportions.

The big "secret" to nature's "intelligent design" is that it is based on the most efficient blueprint. On a flower head for example, the golden mean allows for the arrangement of the highest possible number of seeds. By any other dimension, less seeds would fit.

So simplicity and efficiency are the key. Electricity and water follow the path of least resistance, yet people rarely consider them intelligent. Nature does the same thing, but in the multidues of repetition of something simple, humans come along and interpret it as though it must be ascribed to divine intelligence. Really because they are unable to see the macrocosm in the micro and the unity of all things. Also, the human machine is "designed" on the same simple principle of nature and since man often ascribes to himself supernatural attributes, he reflects the same megalomania onto humble nature


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Viveka]
    #2188229 - 12/18/03 05:32 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Hey man, nice perspective! :thumbup:

Thanks for posting that. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds, Feminized Cannabis Seeds, High THC Strains, USA West Coast Strains   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* How would one go about testing the Intelligent Design Theory?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
dr0mni 11,274 103 05/17/09 04:49 AM
by Darwinian
* Bush Wants Kids Taught 'Intelligent Design' In Biology Class
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
DiploidM 13,355 102 08/10/05 02:54 AM
by MushmanTheManic
* The Problem With The Intelligent Design Debate
( 1 2 3 all )
Divided_Sky 4,700 42 10/06/05 07:05 PM
by dr0mni
* intelligent design or evolution? tak 2,661 18 08/12/04 02:46 AM
by Strumpling
* humans as intelligent designers OldWoodSpecter 1,481 15 09/12/05 02:04 PM
by BlueCoyote
* Intelligent Design newuser1492 623 2 06/23/05 01:06 PM
by Silversoul
* I want to debate a "creation scientist".
( 1 2 3 4 ... 11 12 all )
Phluck 15,426 232 12/01/04 06:26 PM
by Diploid
* time and numbers
( 1 2 all )
crunchytoast 2,679 23 09/26/05 08:30 PM
by TheGus

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
3,062 topic views. 3 members, 1 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2022 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.048 seconds spending 0.013 seconds on 18 queries.