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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: johnm214]
    #8579752 - 06/30/08 06:08 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

There is no way to test Intelligent Design; therefore it is not a theory. Its has no predictive ability. No new knowledge comes forth from it.

Any evidence is only in the mind of the beholder. Claiming something is extremely unlikely to happen (the main ID argument) speaks to incomplete knowledge, not a Creator.

There are thousands of books on evolution that add REAL knowledge to mankind.

Real world products come forth from genetic engineering. Not a single real-world product is, or will ever be, developed from the teaching of ID.

The books on ID basically argue against evolution without adding a SINGLE NEW PIECE OF DATA.

Basically there is nothing to teach about ID except for a philosophical viewpoint which can be expressed in a few minutes.


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OfflineBraveWolf
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8579866 - 06/30/08 07:47 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

In all fairness, the principle aim of ID as I see it, is not to add any new data but to expose weaknesses in the assumptions made by those who resist it. 

We have to assume, or take on faith if you will, that the laws of the universe are consistent and universal: E = mc2 never changes and is the same throughout the universe.  And yet an absurd argument could be made, call it the "Monkeys Could Come Flying Out Of My Ass" argument, that says we don't really know that with absolute certainty since we can't test it in every place in the universe at every moment in time.  We are forced to conclude that the evidence points to a reasonable assumption that every known "law" of the universe is consistent and never-changing.  What ID proponents seem to be saying is that it is absurd to resist the obvious and reasonable assumption here, namely: that the complex systems of the universe must be attributed to some intelligent, creative force. 

Actually, I believe that is what they would like us to think they are saying.  What bothers me most about ID is the presence of that either/or kind of thinking that human intelligence seems to be so addicted to.  We seem to take comfort in telling ourselves that actions are either right or wrong, a person is either liberal or conservative, gay or straight, black or white.  If scientific evidence points to an intelligence guiding the processes of the universe then that intelligence must be a personal God who grants favors and metes out punishments and evolution must be bogus.  You can only have one package or the other: Evolutionary Atheism or Fundamentalist Christianity.

Carl Sagan said it best, and I'm paraphrasing here, "If evolution is not the answer then why would God leave such overwhelming evidence that it is?"

"But," ID proponents argue, "if God is truly God, then why would he " -- God has to be male, he has a beard doesn't he? -- "create life via evolution?" 

Fine.  By that same logic then, if God were truly God, then why did he allow the Holocaust? 

The answer to that one is usually that we're too small to grasp God's grand design.  Funny, I should think the same argument could be applied to why God chose evolution over the Bewitched method of twitching his nose to magically blink everything into existence.  But alas, I think as a whole we're too afraid of the implications of a non-personal intelligence, one that we participate in.  We're too afraid of a universe without a daddy to make everything safe for us.

I don't mind the argument that there's more to the workings of the universe than empty mechanics, but to say that the complexity of DNA is such that it could not have possibly assembled itself out of nothing, therefore God hates homosexuals, is a bit too much for me.

-mk


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: BraveWolf]
    #8579938 - 06/30/08 08:42 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

We have to assume, or take on faith if you will, that the laws of the universe are consistent and universal: E = mc2 never changes and is the same throughout the universe.




No we dont, and in fact it isnt. There are problems with GR, and as we learn more, we alter the model. Unlike ID Scientific theory changes as we receive more data, rather than choosing and picking what fits in our model, and dismissing the rest.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8580054 - 06/30/08 09:35 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I take it you have neither read books on ID or studied it.

If you have links or quotes to IDers or their websites that back up your  claim(s), I would like to see them.

Produce the evidence, other than your opinion, or, as they say around here, it didn't happen.


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8580106 - 06/30/08 09:59 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:confused:


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8580347 - 06/30/08 01:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
There is no way to test Intelligent Design; therefore it is not a theory. Its has no predictive ability. No new knowledge comes forth from it.

Any evidence is only in the mind of the beholder. Claiming something is extremely unlikely to happen (the main ID argument) speaks to incomplete knowledge, not a Creator.

There are thousands of books on evolution that add REAL knowledge to mankind.

Real world products come forth from genetic engineering. Not a single real-world product is, or will ever be, developed from the teaching of ID.

The books on ID basically argue against evolution without adding a SINGLE NEW PIECE OF DATA.

Basically there is nothing to teach about ID except for a philosophical viewpoint which can be expressed in a few minutes.




I don't think you can say its not a theory cuz its not able to be proven or disproven, but maybe I don't understand what that word means.  I agree its not really science in and of itself.  I just don't see how evolution is inherently more useful as a theory.  All the useful relationships are between taxa are as consistant with a creator as they are with evolution.  I see the two ideas as pretty much equivalent in their utility, please enlighten me if I'm wrong.  I also think we should recognize that the term intelligent design is being used in this thread to refer to the theory of how the taxa developed, and not how life began.

I disagree with your statement that saying things are unlikely to happen doesn't tend to disprove them.  This is the whole basis of logic and science, we presume things happen in the most likely manner consistant with the observations we've made.

How is genetic enginering somehow related to whether ID or evolution are accurate or useful?  I don't understand.

I also don't get how books on evolution add knowledge while ID books wouldn't?  Unless they just don't, but that's not a problem with the theory but with the authors.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: johnm214]
    #8580434 - 06/30/08 02:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think you can say its not a theory cuz its not able to be proven or disproven, but maybe I don't understand what that word means.



There are several definitions of theory, but scientific theory MUST be

1. Backed by solid data
2. Be falsifiable
3. Have predictive ability.


Quote:

I disagree with your statement that saying things are unlikely to happen doesn't tend to disprove them.




As I make my living utilizing odds and probability, I would say that makes me more an expert than the average poster.

What are the odds of getting dealt a specific hand in bridge? I will help you out. It is 1 / (52 * 51 * 50 * 49 * 48 * 47 * 46 * 45 * 44 * 43 * 42 * 41 * 40) = 1 / 39,542,426,439,112,396,800,000 (or about the odds that a hurricane will assemble a 747 out of junkyard parts).

So does that mean the impossible happens every single hand of bridge and the game itself proves a Creator?


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (06/30/08 04:26 PM)

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: johnm214]
    #8580469 - 06/30/08 02:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
There is no way to test Intelligent Design; therefore it is not a theory. Its has no predictive ability. No new knowledge comes forth from it.

Any evidence is only in the mind of the beholder. Claiming something is extremely unlikely to happen (the main ID argument) speaks to incomplete knowledge, not a Creator.

There are thousands of books on evolution that add REAL knowledge to mankind.

Real world products come forth from genetic engineering. Not a single real-world product is, or will ever be, developed from the teaching of ID.

The books on ID basically argue against evolution without adding a SINGLE NEW PIECE OF DATA.

Basically there is nothing to teach about ID except for a philosophical viewpoint which can be expressed in a few minutes.




I don't think you can say its not a theory cuz its not able to be proven or disproven, but maybe I don't understand what that word means.  I agree its not really science in and of itself.  I just don't see how evolution is inherently more useful as a theory.  All the useful relationships are between taxa are as consistant with a creator as they are with evolution.  I see the two ideas as pretty much equivalent in their utility, please enlighten me if I'm wrong.  I also think we should recognize that the term intelligent design is being used in this thread to refer to the theory of how the taxa developed, and not how life began.

I disagree with your statement that saying things are unlikely to happen doesn't tend to disprove them.  This is the whole basis of logic and science, we presume things happen in the most likely manner consistent with the observations we've made.

How is genetic engineering somehow related to whether ID or evolution are accurate or useful?  I don't understand.

I also don't get how books on evolution add knowledge while ID books wouldn't?  Unless they just don't, but that's not a problem with the theory but with the authors.



Yes, in order for something to be a "theory" it must be posible to disprove. ID is an idea, and while many people might not see the distinction, there is a difference. Thats also why evolution is a more useful "theory", its possible to disprove evolution, or to modify it. Where as creationism takes our modern findings about life, and the universe in general, and simply states that all of it was created without any slight bit of evidence. Evolution as a theory is based off of all the collected evidence that we have, and it not only can change as we receive newer, and better data, it already has many times.

Creationism (in any of its forms) is literally based on nothing. No one collected data, analyzed it, and thought wow this really suggests that we were created. Creationist have literally taken the evidence and fit it into their religious ideology like a square peg in a round hole, and called it a theory.

Evolutionary theory doesnt even state that ID is impossible, it doesnt take it into account at all. It is obviously impossible to prove, or disprove god, and anything else existing outside of the universe so it serves no purpose to theorize about it. That is for religion, not science.

Someone in another thread brought up Douglas Hofstadter's GEB....the very idea of trying to theorize about god or anything else outside of our limited system reminds me of Godels theorem, or at least to his thoughts on the system proposed in principia mathematica, check into it if you're interested in such things.:strokebeard:


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8580764 - 06/30/08 04:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:


Quote:

I disagree with your statement that saying things are unlikely to happen doesn't tend to disprove them.




As I make my living utilizing odds and probability, I would say that makes me more an expert than the average poster.

What are the odds of getting dealt a specific hand in bridge? I will help you out. It is 1 / (52 * 51 * 50 * 49 * 48 * 47 * 46 * 45 * 44 * 43 * 42 * 41 * 40) = 1 / 39,542,426,439,112,396,800,000 (or about the odds that a hurricane will assemble a 747 out of junkyard parts).

So does that mean the impossible happens every single hand of bridge and the game itself proves a Creator?




Of course it doesn't make anything impossible, it makes it unlikely.

Your comparing apples to oranges though.

There is no way to determine the odds of god creating the hand, and so you can't compare the two.  You can't use degrees of liklihood to compare two possibilities when one possiblity is unquantifiable.

And everything is unlikely to have happened if you have enough data points, that doesn't mean it didn't.  A post hoc analysis will always reveal an unlikely outcome provided you have enough precision in your measurements.

Its not useful to compare the odds of something to an alternative but untestable and unquantifiable theory.


With the bridge hand it was a probability of 1 that you would get a hand.  The hand you drew was just as likely as another hand.  That both hands are unlikely to be predicted or replicated doesn't mean anything, the fact is you were certain of drawing the hand.


That's different than looking at the odds a protein will self assemble, however; because there is no certainty the protein will self assemble.

Your looking at odds of 1 that the deck will be dealt vs low odds that a protein will form.


Quote:

Yes, in order for something to be a "theory" it must be posible to disprove. ID is an idea, and while many people might not see the distinction, there is a difference. Thats also why evolution is a more useful "theory", its possible to disprove evolution, or to modify it. Where as creationism takes our modern findings about life, and the universe in general, and simply states that all of it was created without any slight bit of evidence. Evolution as a theory is based off of all the collected evidence that we have, and it not only can change as we receive newer, and better data, it already has many times.

Creationism (in any of its forms) is literally based on nothing. No one collected data, analyzed it, and thought wow this really suggests that we were created. Creationist have literally taken the evidence and fit it into their religious ideology like a square peg in a round hole, and called it a theory.

Evolutionary theory doesnt even state that ID is impossible, it doesnt take it into account at all. It is obviously impossible to prove, or disprove god, and anything else existing outside of the universe so it serves no purpose to theorize about it. That is for religion, not science.

Someone in another thread brought up Douglas Hofstadter's GEB....the very idea of trying to theorize about god or anything else outside of our limited system reminds me of Godels theorem, or at least to his thoughts on the system proposed in principia mathematica, check into it if you're interested in such things.:strokebeard:




Ok, well whatever on the theory bit.

I wouldn't say creationism or intelligent design is based on nothing, its just not based on any testable premise unique to it and has no scientific support besides the antecedant facts, i.e. things exist, things are complicated.


I don't know anything about GEB, perhaps I'll look into it.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: johnm214]
    #8580878 - 06/30/08 04:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Your looking at odds of 1 that the deck will be dealt vs low odds that a protein will form


.
The odds of a protein forming are 100%.

You argue one way to support a point, then use the same argument to dismiss a contrary point. This is not congruous.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: johnm214]
    #8580982 - 06/30/08 05:09 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

low odds that a protein will form

The specific mechanism of the origin of life on Earth isn't known. However, it has been shown that amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) can self-synthesis given the right conditions.

Chemists Stanley Miller's and Harold Urey's famous experiment in 1953 put water, methane, hydrogen, and ammonia in a closed, sterile environment with an electric spark to simulate lightning.

After a few days they analyzed the contents of the experiment and found that amino acids, the critical organic molecules essential to life out of which proteins are made, had appeared by themselves. The four carbon chemical bonds in the methane had broken free and rearranged themselves into the building blocks of life.

This happened without the benefit of a designer, alien, creator, or anything else besides water, methane, hydrogen, ammonia and a spark.

Although it is now believed that the Earth's atmosphere at the time of abiogenesis did not contain enough carbon or free nitrogen for this to have been the synthetic route to the first organism, it nevertheless clearly established that a natural processes COULD have produced the first life on Earth and more modern experiments confirm this.

This idea that abiogenesis is highly unlikely is made up by religious people who don't understand simple chemistry and sadly never try to educate themselves.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: Diploid]
    #8581141 - 06/30/08 05:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
After a few days they analyzed the contents of the experiment and found that amino acids, the critical organic molecules essential to life out of which proteins are made, had appeared by themselves.




:noway:
They didn't appear by themselves, God was playing a joke on the scientist doods, and formed the amino acids to provoke controversy....    :wink:
We are an easily guided staged puppet performance of great proportions....
....and many strings, N'stuff....    :grin:


>^;;^<


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: Diploid]
    #8581209 - 06/30/08 06:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Amino acids are one thing, but code sequences of amino acids have never been replicated.

I'd bet on DNA design, but by who or what I won't even guess.

Evolution may be a function of the original design...

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: Middleman]
    #8581263 - 06/30/08 06:23 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

In certain circles, the buzz word for the automatic configuration properties of things, is "emergence"....
It's like everything is a little remote controlled thing, but there is no controller to control them.....?
No comprenday~....    :shrug:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: Middleman]
    #8581326 - 06/30/08 06:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Amino acids are one thing, but code sequences of amino acids have never been replicated.

Mystic-heads are notorious for moving the goal-line when it suits them.

Before the Miller-Urey experiment, it was said that, sure, simple molecules like methane can self-assemble sans a creator, but "complex" molecules like amino acids never could.

Along came Miller and Urey and suddenly it's, sure, simple building blocks of life like amino acids can self-assemble sans a creator, but "complex" molecules like DNA never could.

And so on, and so on...

No amount of evidence is ever enough to convince someone who has invested themselves psychologically in an idea instead of rejecting attachment and allowing for ANY truth when the evidence points that way, even when it's uncomfortable.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: Diploid]
    #8581373 - 06/30/08 06:45 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know about you, but that 1953 experiment was 17 years before my time....
I have moved no bars, personally....    :grin:

So, did they leave that vat sit for the last 50 years to see if anything else would "grow" out of the amino soup....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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InvisibleCameron
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8581384 - 06/30/08 06:47 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

They drank it, and the rest, as they say, is history. :tongue2:

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: Cameron]
    #8581491 - 06/30/08 07:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

That could work as a form of alphabet soup, if you ad an "L" and a "P"....
Because then you would have L Amino P soup....  :tongue:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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Invisibleelbisivni
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8581745 - 06/30/08 08:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:nonono:


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InvisibleCameron
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: elbisivni]
    #8581758 - 06/30/08 08:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I don't get it. :lol:
Someone help out the doomy. :tongue:

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