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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: Diploid]
    #10253952 - 04/29/09 02:56 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

No amount of evidence is ever enough to convince someone who has invested themselves psychologically in an idea instead of rejecting attachment and allowing for ANY truth when the evidence points that way, even when it's uncomfortable.




QFT


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: Veritas]
    #10253964 - 04/29/09 03:02 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

When I investigated said websites, as well as many others in which reputable scientists presented evidence which exposed ID "theories" as the laughable conjecture they are, and quoted Dembski as disputing evolution, you implied that I had no understanding of the subject, as I had "merely" Googled the topic. 





When one has nothing else to offer it is always 'clever' to impugn a poster's ability to understand. We see this day in and day out by the same vocal member who eschews personalisms. :rolleyes:


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10254135 - 04/29/09 04:38 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Wow, looked over my old comments and was kinda shocked how I presented them.  All I was trying to say was that intelligent design is a perfectly acceptable belief, its just not science and cannot be proven or shown any direct evidence of its occurance (at least to the extent it conflict with evolution).


In any case I've read up more on intelligent design since then and was somewhat shocked to find they are trying to push it as a scientific theory.  Given its inherent nature I had presumed it was just a philosophy premised on scripture and science (since science can't refute it).


It seems folks are really trying to advance this as science, which is fine, though its doomed to failure.  I was using theory in the philosophical common sense of the word when I made my comments about intelligent design.  As I said, I don't think its a science and I don't think its ever possible to be a science since its impossible to do any scientific inquiry when you don't have a natural phenomena (i.e. the basic premise that things should be repeatable regardless of time and location given similar starting conditions doesn't hold and the idea of god's intervention doesn't yield any predictions that can be tested except by post hoc connect the dots fallacy)



The biggest problem with this theory is people trying to push it as science when it isn't, its theology or philosophy.  I can excuse some people's intent who don't understand science, but I can't excuse people like school boards who should know better.  And I think it'd be tragic to change science curricula to teach lies.  Hopefully if it is introduced, which I'm not neccesarily opposed to, its out of a science classroom or at least doesn't say things that aren't true (i.e. appealing to all the falllacies or trying to pass itself off as a scientific hypothesis)

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10282364 - 05/04/09 06:12 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
*bump*




For those that wish to pick up on an extension of the argument, you may find it here.

That way we shouldn't have to bump this old erroneous thread and its assumptions.  Most, if not all, of the issues in this thread are answered in the extension.


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Offlineyoubreakyoubuy
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10282763 - 05/04/09 08:46 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

A required course at Liberty University

Quote:

The student will be able to:

+Demonstrate a consistent, biblical worldview regarding origins
+Explain key scientific evidences and arguments used to support the theory of evolution as well as difficulties with the theory
+Provide scientific and biblical arguments in support of creation.




The class might last longer than a few minutes.

Edited by youbreakyoubuy (05/04/09 08:47 AM)

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #10282771 - 05/04/09 08:49 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

:lol:  Leave the poor ol' thread alone.


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Offlineyoubreakyoubuy
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10282774 - 05/04/09 08:50 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

:stirthepot:

Well, shucks.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #10282779 - 05/04/09 08:52 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

:yesnod: Shit don't stink if you don't stir it.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #10282858 - 05/04/09 09:21 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

youbreakyoubuy said:
A required course at Liberty University

Quote:

The student will be able to:

+Demonstrate a consistent, biblical worldview regarding origins
+Explain key scientific evidences and arguments used to support the theory of evolution as well as difficulties with the theory
+Provide scientific and biblical arguments in support of creation.




The class might last longer than a few minutes.




Many IDers (and I believe our very own MM - will have to recheck this) have flatly stated that ID does not require a belief in the Bible.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10282869 - 05/04/09 09:25 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

youbreakyoubuy said:
A required course at Liberty University

Quote:

The student will be able to:

+Demonstrate a consistent, biblical worldview regarding origins
+Explain key scientific evidences and arguments used to support the theory of evolution as well as difficulties with the theory
+Provide scientific and biblical arguments in support of creation.




The class might last longer than a few minutes.




Many IDers (and I believe our very own MM - will have to recheck this) have flatly stated that ID does not require a belief in the Bible.




Correct.  Many Creationists are quite unhappy with ID because many IDers, including its creators Dembski and Behe, have no problem with common descent (monkeys to man) or an old earth.  ID has theological implications just as the Big Bang theory does.  That doesn't mean ID is inherently religious.


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Offlineyoubreakyoubuy
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10282908 - 05/04/09 09:42 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You know, I've brought up ID before on these forums and have been emphatically told that ID is nothing but creationist propaganda. 

I saw a Ben Stein doc, "Expelled", that gave me quite a bit to think about.  He made it out that ID was a valid theory.  All the criticism I've ever seen for the movie has made it out to be nothing but an attempt on the part of creationists to forward their agenda.

I don't understand why it should be taught in science classes.  It seems more of a metaphysical statement than anything.  Plus, evolution is more subject to falsification than intelligent design, so I feel that it is the more venerable of the two theories.

I don't think ID is inherently religious either, but it definitely sparks religious thoughts.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10282916 - 05/04/09 09:45 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Youbreak's ID course was Biblical in nature. Seems there are several branches of ID. All of them appear to this reader as either:

Argument from Ignorance (we don't know understand the mechanism, therefore God did it)

or

Argument from Incredulity (no way could this have come about through natural selection).

I have read your references and they all appear to confirm the above.


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Offlineyoubreakyoubuy
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10283509 - 05/04/09 12:44 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Ok.  Mostly it seems the first of your two arguments.

But there's also the Corollary of Inheritance to go along with your Argument of Ignorance.

Most people that hold religious beliefs do so because their parents did. 

People have a hard time coping with the unexplainable so they generate a story or myth to support their world view.  These myths are then handed down generation to generation until it becomes dogma.

"Ignorance" and "Incredulity" are words with much negative connotation.  Describing the logical scaffolding of a person's world view in such stark negativity seems to provoke a negative reaction in these people.  They don't want to hear this info nor do they wish to poke and prod their metaphysical supports.

I mean, this all flies in an internet forum, but how am I going to have a level conversation with my religious friends without provoking a negative response?

And besides, what's wrong with coping mechanisms?


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OfflineShirakawasuna
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #10373627 - 05/21/09 12:56 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hi!

Quote:

youbreakyoubuy said:

You know, I've brought up ID before on these forums and have been emphatically told that ID is nothing but creationist propaganda.




ID is an outgrowth of creationism and operates almost exclusively on P.R. (not research, not battling out in academia).  Whether or not you want to call it creationist propaganda as a result is your call.

Quote:

youbreakyoubuy said

I saw a Ben Stein doc, "Expelled", that gave me quite a bit to think about.  He made it out that ID was a valid theory.  All the criticism I've ever seen for the movie has made it out to be nothing but an attempt on the part of creationists to forward their agenda.




The film itself was funded by these guys: http://gatheringofangels.com/ .  You can check them out if you want to :wink:.  The film marketed to and made its money off of creationists.  It appealed to all kinds of old creationist bullshit, told the same lies as creationism, and, if I remember right, wasn't even all that consistent on keeping religion out of it (ID advocates do everything they can do avoid naming the 'designer').

While it's accurate to say it's stupid propaganda, labels are less important than what it actually says, how it's dishonest, how it's wrong, etc.

Quote:

youbreakyoubuy

I don't understand why it should be taught in science classes.  It seems more of a metaphysical statement than anything.  Plus, evolution is more subject to falsification than intelligent design, so I feel that it is the more venerable of the two theories.

I don't think ID is inherently religious either, but it definitely sparks religious thoughts.




First off, ID is not a theory like evolution is a theory.  Evolutionary theory is scientific and like you mention, subject to falsification. Not only that, it is overwhelmingly evidenced.  ID, in contrast, fails to make predictions: scientists who are *not* ID advocates have to do *their* work for them and find that the hypotheses they can scrap together fail.  It similarly lacks evidence.

ID, completely removed from social context, is not religious.  It is fallacious, wrong, pig-headedly stupid, and dishonest, definitely.  However, if you add social context back in the motives, origins, and actual opinions of ID advocates become clear: they're conspicuously theistic, even creationist, and that's who they appeal to.  I can think of very few exceptions and the main one, who I won't identify, is a pitiable character.  It's an antiscience religious movement.

Quote:

youbreakyoubuy said:

People have a hard time coping with the unexplainable so they generate a story or myth to support their world view.  These myths are then handed down generation to generation until it becomes dogma.

"Ignorance" and "Incredulity" are words with much negative connotation.  Describing the logical scaffolding of a person's world view in such stark negativity seems to provoke a negative reaction in these people.  They don't want to hear this info nor do they wish to poke and prod their metaphysical supports.




If I'm interpreting you right, I think you're talking about religious ideas, aren't you?  ID is an attempt to avoid association with them as much as possible while still succeeding in an antiscience agenda.  It's a symptom of religious behavior which results in dishonesty when confronted with a competing, evidenced idea.  This also means that ID does not stand outside of its context, if you're saying it shouldn't be challenged in a certain way due to being, in essence, a part of that myth -> dogma legacy.

Quote:

youbreakyoubuy

I mean, this all flies in an internet forum, but how am I going to have a level conversation with my religious friends without provoking a negative response?

And besides, what's wrong with coping mechanisms?




I don't know your religious friends, it may actually be very difficult to discuss.  Not only are those ideas often deeply ingrained, in the U.S. it's a bit taboo to have a frank discussion on religion.  That taboo, in my opinion, leads to a teeny-tiny bit of outrage when one of their ideas isn't shared by a friend.  Now that's a generality and it applies mostly to the more fundamentalist people out there.  Your results may vary.

However, if your friends are unwilling to have a frank discussion of an intellectual topic, you should point that out in a nice way.  I would try something like, "I'll talk about this stuff whenever you'd like, but I won't pull any punches."  And the internet isn't real life.  People who go storming in citing fallacies that no one is familiar with without any social nuance tend to get dismissed.  Instead, I would state my general position and offer to support it if necessary.  They'll make it clear whether they want to talk about it or not.

I think coping mechanisms are treated too lightly.  Sad situations are sad.  They are not improved by forwarding poor reasoning or attacking science.

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Offlineyoubreakyoubuy
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: Shirakawasuna]
    #10374857 - 05/21/09 07:35 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

ahh!!  The laser eyes are on me now?!  I've been peeking in and out of the rodeo over in that other ID thread and am not sure that I want to get involved.

I gotta fly right now.  I'll think of a response later.


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Offlineyoubreakyoubuy
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Re: Shmoopy's Intelligent Design Textbook - $24.95 [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #10380566 - 05/22/09 07:11 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

As promised:

I guess my biggest problem with ID/evolution debate is that I cannot articulate my position very well.  Heck, if I sat down right now and tried to type up a long winded description of my "faith" towards evolution or towards ID, I wouldn't have much to stand on.  I can describe evolution in superficial terms of fossils, DNA markers, yada yada, but I don't feel that I have the authority or credibility as joe-schmoe to make any real stabs at clarifying the argument to anyone.  And plus, it's very tiring to keep talking to someone if the sum total of their reply is "God is great.  He can do anything." without any thought to the mechanism.  Personally I thing when people attribute natural processes to God that they are shoehorning him into a box.  I'm not exactly a person of great faith, but whatever.

And yes, I understand now that ID is not 'theory.'  If I've gotten anything out of all this hoopla, it's that.:tongue:


At the end of the day, yes, I would just let the argument sit.  If I hear someone say something about which I'm passionate and knowledgeable about (like drugs) I'll throw in my two cents, but I'm willing to let things which I cannot argue very well slide.  It's not my aim in a conversation to leave the audience more confused then when they came in.

Yes, it's very hard to have a frank discussion on religion.  Most of the time it's not worth the strain on cherished or budding relationships to bring it up.  I think you're from the UK, yeah?  Well, where I'm from (the deep south of the US) there are deeply ingrained religious traditions.  Most folks don't question their metaphysical views because it's assumed that everyone shares the same view.  I'm in no way saying that religious views are o/repressed, in my experience, that doesn't happen. 

Having a discussion on religion is fairly commonplace if you are religious.  If you are not, it's rare to meet anyone who has given non-belief much thought beyond a desire to buck the trend or,IMO, to redirect their anger at society by denying God.  Most people haven't discussed or been informed of the validity of other societies' worldviews.  In an anthropological sense.

I think that ID/evolution is not a scientific debate.  It's a cultural debate.  It should be discussed in the social sciences.

So.....that's all I have to say about that for now.:sun:


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