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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3852619 - 03/01/05 04:45 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

So you saying that the sperm that I produced when I was 18 is identicle to the sperm that I will produce when Im 45.

Where did he say that? He didn't. He said we can not "purposefully adapt our genes".

Now if you've been reading the thread, you would notice that it was already pointed out that your sperm ARE different from eachother. It is not a function of how long you have been living, because ALL your sperm are different from eachother in some small way.

I suggest you go read up on "meiosis", which will explain the process by which sperm/eggs obtain a similar yet different copy of DNA from the parent.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: trendal]
    #3852631 - 03/01/05 04:47 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: trendal]
    #3852760 - 03/01/05 05:06 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
I suggest you go read up on "meiosis", which will explain the process by which sperm/eggs obtain a similar yet different copy of DNA from the parent.




>>>Meiosis is a process to convert a diploid cell to a haploid gamete, and cause a change in the genetic information to increase diversity in the offspring.

How do you know that their isnt a "divine" influence on the genetic structure. If it is real cold and I 'pray' to God not to be cold. How do you know that God isnt answering my prayers by altering the genetic code of my sperm so that my offspring can handle the cold better.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3852786 - 03/01/05 05:12 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

How do you know that their isnt a "divine" influence on the genetic structure. If it is real cold and I 'pray' to God not to be cold. How do you know that God isnt answering my prayers by altering the genetic code of my sperm so that my offspring can handle the cold better.

Well how do you know it is God answering your prayors?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3852807 - 03/01/05 05:17 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
We can adapt our behavior to our surroundings, and teach that behavior to each new generation, but we cannot purposefully adapt our genes. That comes about through mutation.




So you saying that the sperm that I produced when I was 18 is identicle to the sperm that I will produce when Im 45.

I would like to see a link to the results of that study.



No two sperm are identical. The millions of sperm you produce when you are 18 are as different from one another as they are from the millions of sperm you produce when you are 45.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3852835 - 03/01/05 05:20 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
We can adapt our behavior to our surroundings, and teach that behavior to each new generation, but we cannot purposefully adapt our genes. That comes about through mutation.




So you saying that the sperm that I produced when I was 18 is identicle to the sperm that I will produce when Im 45.

I would like to see a link to the results of that study.




I'm back with more and I'm truly astonished at how little information is in the common knowledge base .

yes it is the same sperm (genetically)- possibly with less vigor (less fertilization potential) and possibly some degradation to telomeres (end caps of the chromosomes - nto a good thing for offspring) but genetically it is always 100% identical except if you expose yourself to deadly radiation or other extreme and usually fatal DNA corruptive hazard.

NOTE:Some biologically uneducated people have voiced their opinion (this is a free speech world) that they can change their chromosomes, but it a completely unfounded claim, and these people do not even know what a chromosome actually is or why they have them.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Silversoul]
    #3852861 - 03/01/05 05:25 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
No two sperm are identical. The millions of sperm you produce when you are 18 are as different from one another as they are from the millions of sperm you produce when you are 45.




technically this is true but it is unrelated to the erroneous assumption of the thread.

the sperm which are produced by meiosis come from the same male germ cells that are unchanged genetically from birth till end of life


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3853106 - 03/01/05 06:13 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

A key point here is that there is ALWAYS genetic diversity in a quantitative sense, but in a FUNCTIONAL sense, everybody is the same. So, of course there are little changes between people, like hair color, or exactly how much HCl the stomach secretes, but the fact that you grow hair, and your stomach secretes HCl at all and is attached to your esophagus and intestines, is a functional adaptation that will not change for millions of years.

Quantitative vs. Qualitative.


--------------------
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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: freddurgan]
    #3853126 - 03/01/05 06:16 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Excellent point! :thumbup:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3853998 - 03/01/05 09:08 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

How do you know that their isnt a "divine" influence on the genetic structure. If it is real cold and I 'pray' to God not to be cold. How do you know that God isnt answering my prayers by altering the genetic code of my sperm so that my offspring can handle the cold better.




This is a distinct possibility which science cannot refute. The providence of God may well be at work in the formation of sperm cells, however it is important to note that variation occurs in the formation of egg cells as well, and there is nothing to indicate that divine providence does not come into play in their formation. The only difference is the timing, but for an eternal being, time is not an obstacle.

For instance if a man living at the beginning of an ice-age prayed "not to be cold", God could easily effect the formation of his wife's egg cells to produce the desired characteristic in her offspring. Of course this would be done retroactively because as you mentioned all the eggs or formed at the beginning of a woman's life. In effect the request to not be cold would be answered before the prayer was made. Such is the eternal nature of divine providence.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: shroomydan]
    #3854012 - 03/01/05 09:12 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

well if you go for immaculate conception
the magick went on with just an egg -
sperm were superfluous in that story.

and when it comes to god influencing something, well, what can't he do?


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3854046 - 03/01/05 09:26 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

'Immaculate Conception' actually refers Mary being born without original sin, not to the virgin birth of Christ. But you bring up a good point about what God can do. Catholic doctrine states that Mary was born without original sin due to a special grace merited by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Of course the grace appeared chronologically prior to the sacrifice which produced it, but this is not illogical because the sacrifice was an eternal act, and all moments in time are simultaneous with eternity. This is the same principle I was speaking about above. A cause (prayer) can produce an effect which is prior to it in time, provided that it acts through an eternal pathway (God).


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Silversoul]
    #3854195 - 03/01/05 10:14 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

OK

Already we have at least two "scientific" views that conflict

Quote:

Paradigm said:
No two sperm are identical. The millions of sperm you produce when you are 18 are as different from one another as they are from the millions of sperm you produce when you are 45.





Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I'm back with more and I'm truly astonished at how little information is in the common knowledge base .

yes it is the same sperm (genetically)- possibly with less vigor (less fertilization potential) and possibly some degradation to telomeres (end caps of the chromosomes - nto a good thing for offspring) but genetically it is always 100% identical except if you expose yourself to deadly radiation or other extreme and usually fatal DNA corruptive hazard.





Now who is right?





























The primary point that I have been trying to make is that the "mutation/adaptation/evolution" is NOT a random occurrence.

I am not trying to debunk any science (contrary to popular belief). Your telling me that evolution is completely random, and Im saying that "God" is the one responsible for the direction that the evolution takes.


Lets go back to the cold adaptation example. Lets say the temp gets drastically cold and the people of the earth "pray" for it not to be cold; "Oh my God its fugin cold! Why oh why is it so cold?"

God (or Mother Nature) hears our pain and "fans the flames of change". Guiding our evolution. The easiest way to make the needed "evolutionary change" is to alter the genetic code of the MALES.

His code is being written all the time.

A little nudge in the right direction and BAM the code is altered. Now the offspring will have a higher tolerance for the cold.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3854318 - 03/01/05 10:39 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The easiest way to make the needed "evolutionary change" is to alter the genetic code of the MALES.




It seems to me that any way would be easy for God. He could alter the males as you say, he could alter the females as I explained above, or maybe he set it up from the beginning to reach his desired end by working through a process of natural selection and survival of the fittest. Maybe a combination of all three, or even something we have not thought of yet.

What may seem easiest from a human perspective is not necessarily the way an infinitely powerful being would go about accomplishing his plan.

PS: If you really want a scientific view, then you are better off reading a reliable source than second hand info presented here. (there are several good links posted earlier in this thread) I don't think we have any doctors of biology who post here frequently.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3854351 - 03/01/05 10:48 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe this is a confusion of terms?

In this case I would use "random" to mean it is not possible to predict when a mutation occurs. Mutations do have a direct cause, but individual events are unpredictible with current knowledge. From our point of view, they occur randomly.

We seem to agree that evolution does occur and does so through mutation. We differ in what we think causes the mutation, that's all :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: trendal]
    #3854487 - 03/01/05 11:22 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Now I'm determined to shed some light on the subject. I'll post the links that I'm reading with rather enthusiastic gusto, and come back for more tomorrow.

Everyone that was part of this thread that still cares should read this link to their hearts desire.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/index.shtml


--------------------
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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3854528 - 03/01/05 11:32 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Now who is right?

Paradigm is, but only because RedGreenVines meant something slightly different.

Sperm are pretty much the same at any stage of life, only they're all slightly different.

God (or Mother Nature) hears our pain and "fans the flames of change". Guiding our evolution. The easiest way to make the needed "evolutionary change" is to alter the genetic code of the MALES.

Actually, it's JUST AS EASY to alter the genetic code of the females. Eggs are still prone to genetic damage.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: shroomydan]
    #3854548 - 03/01/05 11:36 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
It seems to me that any way would be easy for God. He could alter the males as you say, he could alter the females as I explained above, or maybe he set it up from the beginning to reach his desired end by working through a process of natural selection and survival of the fittest.




"God" set the universe in motion. He gave it, its own set of "laws". (Laws that we are just now begining to understand.)

Their are some "laws" that even "God" cant break.

He too has to work within a set of "rules". He is watching over us. If we need some help....He will assist in any way that He can,.....IF WE ASK FOR IT.

Once we ask then he will help in the easiest meathod that he can......and the males are the ones whose genes are the easiest to manipulate.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3854663 - 03/01/05 11:57 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Once we ask then he will help in the easiest meathod that he can......and the males are the ones whose genes are the easiest to manipulate.

Why are male's genes easier to manipulate? Eggs can still undergo genetic changes.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Phluck]
    #3854741 - 03/02/05 12:13 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

He has no idea what hes talking about.


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