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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


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The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step
#6178055 - 10/17/06 10:36 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hey amigos.
So i dont know about you, but im a very curious person. Im curious about what my place in life is, what it means to be a human, what it means to be an earthling, where im going, where my species is going.
Thinking on these topics, i had a few ideas that helped shift my perspective on our current global situation.
One thing that always worried me as an adolescent was the way that humans have desecrated earth's natural biospheres and its supporting environment.
Humans are consuming 80% of all the world's resources and wiping out thousands of other beautifull species.
This used to bother me alot.
However, since then i have begun to study the Gaia hypothesis.
The gaia hypothesis is something i believe everyone should check out.
Basically, it goes like this: your own body, your human body, is composed of billions upon billions of single cellular organisms. All of these organisms function independently of one another. All of them strive to preserve their own individual homeostasis, and all of them have some extremely reduced form of individual awareness.
When thousands of like single celled organisms get together, they form tissues, and then organs. These tissues, despite being made of billions of disparate organisms, function as a unified whole.
Somehow, miraculously, at the very top of the line, you as a human being are able to have a single, unified, collective awareness. Despite being a multitude onto yourself, you have a greater awareness that is singular.
The gaia hypothesis arises from studying the intricate systems that sustain life on earth. When you study environmental science, you realize that the earth has a "cardiac system" that functions to distribute minerals and nutrients to various "tissues" on the planets surface. You realize it has a "respiratory system" that allows it to purify and recycle its oxygen. it has countless other systems that fufill more or less biological functions.
The idea is that the planet is in fact one super-massive organism and just as we somehow develop an "emergent conciousness" composed of the billions of tiny conciousnesses in our cells, so does earth or Gaia possess a massive, unifying and sentient planet conciousness composed of the trillions of life forms and life systems it contains.
This idea ties in somewhat with the idea that evolution is in some way a purposefull process.
I repeat: evolution is a purposefull process.
What i mean is that it seems clear to me that the natural tendency of non-life is to organize into life, and the natural tendency of life is to evolve into more complex forms.
When i was studying how life evolved on earth, i thought it was fascinating how all life stems from INORGANIC compounds.
Non living molecules of carbon and other materials began spontaneously self organizing, and over millions of years the first simple biotic creatures existed.
Think about that... something "not alive" SELF organized into something alive...
strange.
But it doesnt stop there. Once the evolutionary ball was set in motion, we see the symphony of life, the parade of life unfold. And of course we all know how the first squiggly jellies crawled out of the sea and as the parade rolls on we find the evolution of creatures such as dolphins, orangutangs, ultimatly people, with there culture, there music, there love, dancing and religion.
So what is my point? my point is that human kind could never have understood or predicted or created the processes that led to our arisal on this planet. Something, some mind vastly greater than ours is at work.
Now, consider the industrial revolution and the explosion of human population on earth. In the last few centuries, humankind has risen to dominate the biological sphere on earth.
At one point this seemed to me a huge problem. Now i realize this is just one more page in the book of life, one more directed change on the behalf of the overarching Gaia or God conciousness.
Bear with me. Consider for a moment the evolution of the human being.
Looking at fossil records, we can see a point in human evolution of massive significance, namely the first development of the frontal lobe, the part of the brain capable of personality, speech, all things we consider important and human.
When this anomalous brain structure first appeared in primates, it was very small. Almost instantly, the species underwent a massive change, and in a very short time the frontal lobe had swelled to many times it original size.
Why? because the underlying or overarching intelligence at work recognized in the frontal lobe something of massive importance.
Now, compare this to the explosion of humanity. If the planet is aware, then it is my belief that when humans arose, the planetary intelligence saw there something of massive import. Thus, it allowed massive stores of biomass and energy to be funneled into the proliferation and development of this new kind of life.
Just as early monkey's used most of their food and sugar energy to support the growth of this new and amazing frontal lobe and the conciousness it makes possible, so i believe Gaia or God mind has purposefully let humankind run rampant because it recognizes in human kind the next step in its long and purposefull plan, and its Gaia's way to let less complex biomass be consumed to support more complex biomass, showing once again Life's tendency towards increasing levels of organization.

Anyways. The next thing i wanted to talk about was morality. Morality, roughly speaking, is a manner of conduct, a system of ideas pertaining to right and wrong, and generally the idea that right is desirable.
I have alot of problems with morality and the way it has evolved. But i do notice something significant.
In all of the animal kingdom, only a handfull of creatures display even the most basic forms of morality.
These animals are the dolphin, the orangutang, the chimp, the gorilla, the elephant and the human.
All of these animals display some form of morality, some form of altruism, some capacity to put the other before the self.
All of these animals also have the most developed brains on the planet.
This to me is a clear indicator that morality is an emergent property of evolution
this has staggering implications.
Firstly, it means that anyone who denies morality utterly, denies his evolutionary heritage and voluntary reduces himself to the level of the lower mammal, the reptile.
Secondly, it indicates that seen in its entirety (up to the present) the natural course of the universe is to go from
No life to simple life, from simple life to complex life, and from complex life to MORAL AND SPIRITUAL LIFE.
From these various pieces and parts a pattern emerges.
That the world is aware, that the universe is guided by a grand and progressive intelligence, that life is evolving towards a teleological goal, and that that goal is at least in part the development of first moral and eventually spiritual conciousness.
This adds a new dimension to the traditional theistic idea that god created men as companions for him. It seems to me now that god created not only men but all life to EVENTUALLY EVOLVE TO A STATE IN WHICH KNOWLEDGE OF THE CREATOR WOULD BE POSSIBLE.
Amazingly, YOU know find yourself in such a state.
YOU stand at the pinnacle of this multi trillion year process.
for some reason Gaia wants humans right now.
So now the ball is in our court. We are here to do something, to fufill some vital role in this cosmic process.
So let us all buckle down, figure out what we need to do as individuals and as a species, and get to work.
Love
--------------------
Everything I post is fiction.
Edited by Moonshoe (10/17/06 10:42 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Moonshoe]
#6178142 - 10/17/06 11:03 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Firstly, it means that anyone who denies morality utterly, denies his evolutionary heritage and voluntary reduces himself to the level of the lower mammal, the reptile.
Ya think? I deny morality. Oops! 
Well, maybe it depends on what you mean by morality?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (10/17/06 11:19 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Icelander]
#6178149 - 10/17/06 11:05 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I do think parts of this hypothesis may be valid though.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Moonshoe]
#6178585 - 10/17/06 01:15 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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About the first part I agree wholeheartedly. much much 
The second part I have to reread, as I don't think morality necessarily stems from a 'complex' mind. "All of these animals display some form of morality, some form of altruism, some capacity to put the other before the self." What about ants, or bees ? And dolphins are not really soo cute. They can act quite violent on 'outsiders' (even from 'within' their group) or other cases I forgot at the moment  Morality seems to originally stem from some universal principle, beginning with the smallest self, then concerning the immediate surroundings, and then further outgoing and outranging interaction-areas which might be in concern. The range of this concern is relative. Ants are small but they concern many individuals as hive. Bees too, but they concern a much larger area as they can fly. Humans are a bit bigger and their brain is more complex, but is their 'care' for their enlarged surrounding (hopefully their self, their family, society, enlarged on their environment, the planet, the universe) is qualitatively any different then the ant caring about the hive ??

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Maitereya
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6178654 - 10/17/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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its not so much denying morality. its accepting spirituality, then morality comes as a kind of after affect.
we are all small organisms in the 'collective unconsciousness'.
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Icelander
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Maitereya]
#6178665 - 10/17/06 01:32 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think if we used the word ethics instead of morality, (as in personal ethics) I wouldn't get edgy about this discussion
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Moonshoe]
#6180261 - 10/17/06 08:10 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think Gaia is pretty self-evident if you really think about it. Every ecosystem has its own digestive system, immune system, etc. And an ecosystem in one part of the world affects ecosystems in other parts. For example, the Amazon rainforest takes in a lot of carbon dioxide and prevents the world from warming too much(though we're doing a lot now to undermine that). It kind of makes you think about how we are a multitude of organisms as well. It's interesting how the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts.
Quote:
I repeat: evolution is a purposefull process.
Hard to prove, but I agree. This is one problem I have with neo-Darwinists like Richard Dawkins. They've been adamant in repeating that evolution is "purposeless," to the point that High School text books say that. Such a claim is not falsifiable, and as such should not be taught as science.
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Icelander
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Silversoul]
#6180314 - 10/17/06 08:19 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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My question would be, is earth conscious in a way that we can relate to.
I have read about the way cells connect to form more complex systems. I have sat on a mountain side on five grams of shrooms and looked down on the interconnecting lights of the city miles away and been reminded of this. Could the earth be using us to form a more complex consciousness for herself? Me sits and me wonders.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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TameMe
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Icelander]
#6180365 - 10/17/06 08:31 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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are you guys saying that the earth is aware in another way besides our awareness?
Edited by TameMe (10/17/06 08:32 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: TameMe]
#6180373 - 10/17/06 08:34 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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It would be unlikely that the earth would be aware in exactly the same way we are. Still I would hope for some similarities. She must, I think, be of a higher order than man. Lets hope so for her sake.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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demiu5
humans, lol


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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Moonshoe]
#6180395 - 10/17/06 08:39 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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just as cancers eat away at animals, did you ever think that maybe we are a cancer eating away at the "earth organism", grown so rampant it is unable to contain us until either it destroys itself or we take it down, in turn taking us down?
Concerning the morality, it is culture. How it developed, I do not know, but there is no constant morality.
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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Lion
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: demiu5]
#6180405 - 10/17/06 08:41 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
demius said: just as cancers eat away at animals, did you ever think that maybe we are a cancer eating away at the "earth organism", grown so rampant it is unable to contain us until either it destroys itself or we take it down, in turn taking us down?
Concerning the morality, it is culture. How it developed, I do not know, but there is no constant morality.
I used to think we were a cancer - now I'm not so sure. We are definitely an organism though, for better of for worse. And as for constant morality - who are we to say? I personally suspect that the universe has a strong preference for Joy, Love, and Compassion for all things.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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TrippinNinjaBuddha
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6180566 - 10/17/06 09:25 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I believe some dolphins have been known to rape and/or kill other dolphins. This, however, would seem to support this whole morality argument. Why would all the animals accept morality except for human beings? There must be some dolphins or elephants who are total dicks. Think Scar from the Lion King.
-------------------- Jumped in a river, what did I see? Black eyed angels swimming with me Moon full of stars and astral cars, all the figures I used to see All my lovers were there with me All my past and all my futures We went to heaven in a little rowboat There was nothing to fear and nothing to doubt
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slaphappy
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: TrippinNinjaBuddha]
#6181169 - 10/18/06 01:38 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I like this theory. Ethics and morality is something inevitable if a population grows above a certain number and has to cooperate to avoid extinction. Spirituality comes from recognizing our/its/their own existence, imho. So yes, the complexity grows and creates spirituality and morality. However the cancer starts in society, more specifically: This society, which supresses our spirituality, and regress into devolution by forcing its people to work hard to consume everything in its way, brainwash them into thinking its the right way to evolution or progress. The thing is that we have split ourselves up, divided ourselves, conquered ourselves...because we think, somehow, it'll fix itself.
It wont. We'll suddenly wake up and realize ... but that won't be enough ... we have to actually *realize*, i.e. make the awakening *real*, and not just press "snooze" and go back to sleep for another decade. We as a population, as a whole, must wake up, and force ourselves to go to actual work. Which is whatever which will sustain and clean up the mess we've made of this planet.
Its another page in the book, yes, but the turning point is about to come along and no matter how sad and exhausting the book is, we will be unable to put it down if we want to save ourselves - as a population, or as a planet, or as a consciousness. Peace
-------------------- The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.

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Wasteland
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Moonshoe]
#6181206 - 10/18/06 02:19 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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You say that Earth functions much like an organism.
I believe that this statement is merely an error in observation. The Earth itself is just thermal, kinectic and potential energy acting in traditional physical manners.
To say that it is alive, is to say I am drinking Coca-Cola Zero from a container made of solidified blood (aluminium).
You say that the prefontal lobes of apes where suddenly boosted by an unknown entity.
I prefer to think of the chaos of the universe as the main factor in this achievement.
I would have read all of your post, and commented as so, but I am very tired at the moment and I still have much to do before I rest.
-------------------- The Mad Shroomer said: People are always promising the apocalypse. They never deliver.
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TacticalBongRip
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: slaphappy]
#6181218 - 10/18/06 02:27 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I like the sound of the Hypothesis. Much of it makes sense to me. Thank you for sharing.
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AlteredAgain
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: TacticalBongRip]
#6181219 - 10/18/06 02:29 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
TacticalBongRip said: I like the sound of the Hypothesis. Much of it makes sense to me. Thank you for sharing.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: TrippinNinjaBuddha]
#6182280 - 10/18/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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TNB and slaphappy, yes, good points. Perhaps I thought too fast 
Do simpler organisms really don't have any relation to morality other than in our minds ? processing...
Hmmm...perhaps yes. They do moral things, but without knowing about them... ...processing...
 ... perhaps they are simply limited on their choice about morality  ...processing...
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Moonshoe
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Icelander]
#6182401 - 10/18/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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When i talk about the evolution of morality, i see it beginning first with an actual recognition that whatever it is we value in the self is actually present in the other...
Basically im refering to a shift in conciousness from simple self-gratification to a state of being where one can actually "care" in some basic way about the other.
When i talked about monkeys, the example is simple. If one monkey drops something, another monkey that is closer will pick it up and hand it to the other monkey, simply to save it a few seconds and some effort. This action was neither nescesary for the survival of the community nor was it beneficial to the helping monkey individually.
it was simply a kind act. It demonstrates consideration for the other.
And to answer another posters question, yes i think this differs very significantly from the actions of a bee in blind service to the hive.
I think this is the first real emergence of the seeds of a true spiritual morality.
Of course i dont mean morality in its discriminative, divisive or repressive functions. I mean morality simply as recognition of the value of the other, even to the extent that one can put other before self.
"Could the earth be using us to form a more complex consciousness for herself?"
Ahhh... exactly what i was wondering
--------------------
Everything I post is fiction.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Moonshoe]
#6182721 - 10/18/06 01:37 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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In that example, how would you differentiate morality from cooperation and/or empathy?
Does the ape help another ape because he believes it is right, or because (generations earlier) un-cooperative, non-empathic ape's genetic lines were less likely to be continued? (You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours, we'll all still be alive to procreate.)
How can we truly say that cooperative/empathic behavior is not related to survival, and thus a selected trait? Perhaps picking up someone else's dropped food & handing it to them does not immediately impact the ape's survival, but the overall tendency to cooperate could mean that one band of apes survives a food scarcity & another does not.
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Silversoul
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Veritas]
#6183780 - 10/18/06 07:17 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Does the ape help another ape because he believes it is right, or because (generations earlier) un-cooperative, non-empathic ape's genetic lines were less likely to be continued? (You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours, we'll all still be alive to procreate.)
I'd say that which is morally right is that which aids our collective evolution(the evolution of Gaia, to be specific). In this sense, I think that evolution is a spiritual process.
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Veritas

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Silversoul]
#6184357 - 10/18/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I guess I see evolution in more practical terms: if a random genetic mutation can be successful (live long enough to produce genetically similar offspring), then it will continue to occur. If it cannot be successful, then it will not. If it causes an organism to be more genetically successful than others nearby, then that organism will dominate the area.
Cooperative animals may find it easier to compete with non-cooperative animals, and therefore spend more time making cooperatively-inclined babies. No right or wrong about it.
This is the simplest explanation, and does not require a creator or morality. Whether a creator or an objective morality exist is beside the point. (For me, anyway.)
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Veritas]
#6184440 - 10/18/06 10:08 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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niteowl
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Icelander]
#6185104 - 10/19/06 04:33 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: My question would be, is earth conscious in a way that we can relate to.

Every time you feel Gods presence......it is really just the Gaia spirit talking to you.
Consciousness is layered. One can only relate to the next level of consciousness. Gaia being the true creator of life on earth, is the next level of consciousness for us.
Is there a CreatorOfTheUniverseGOD........I'm sure there is.......but we will never commune with IT because it's too far removed from our level of consciousness.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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niteowl
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Veritas]
#6185120 - 10/19/06 04:47 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Verities said: I guess I see evolution in more practical terms: if a random genetic mutation can be successful (live long enough to produce genetically similar offspring), then it will continue to occur. If it cannot be successful, then it will not. If it causes an organism to be more genetically successful than others nearby, then that organism will dominate the area.
The flaw in your logic is that you believe that these mutations are random. They are driven by an intelligence that knows what direction the mutation needs to go. 
My belief that they are Gaia driven is just as provable as your belief that they are completely random.
Where you only see accidental mutations, I see conscious inspiration. Life being an accident to you.......life being a deliberate creation to me.
Neither opinion is right or wrong, it's only a difference in perspective.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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slaphappy
Its just me


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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: niteowl]
#6185133 - 10/19/06 05:05 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I like this thread.
If God exists, it must be as the collective consciousness, in this theory, like the collective cells in our bodies make up our consciousness as a whole, so must it be for the CONTAINER (I didn't say creator, seeing as something might be bigger than God itself which might also live in a universe of immense size and complexity in comparison to God itself) which this universe is a part of, or exist within.
I think its very likely that our universe is a tiny fraction of a much bigger being than we can possibly imagine, and that this being again is just a tiny fraction of his universe which is again a tiny fraction in a much much bigger being ... and so on ... forever.
God ... I'm stoned. 
Edit: I forgot what half of the thread was about.
The appearant whims of mutation, I suspect could be viewed as a lot of different things. Randomness. Inspiration. Will. Intent. But I'd like to apply my two cents and try to flip it all on its head.
Bear with me now:
You are the center of all universes. Ok? Check. You are the one. The one true God. You have existed forever, and will live forever, and everything is your creation, which you deliberately forget, in order to discover yourself over and over, in an eternity of different plays, universes, universal laws, you name it. OK? CHECK.
Now, if you have allways existed, what we see as evolution must be an illusion. Now consider this: Life started at *this exact moment*, and I'm not talking about now being now being now, and that everything has always been now. No I'm saying that this second in time&space - you created all of history, and all of the future. Seeing as history now, by this definition, works backwards from your viewpoint in consciousness - you don't descend from apes, the apes descend from your consciousness splitting itself up into pieces and arranged in a chronological line creating an (if you may) illusion of time which really never happened - but must have happened, for you to even be here. Hence creating the illusion of existence itself.
Now consider this happening perpetually, constantly, always, every nanosecond, every blink of an eye, everytime you open a door, everytime you take a step, and everytime everytime always and forever.
The more you look, the more you find. The bigger it gets.
You get smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller.
The further you see, the more you find. The bigger it gets.
You get smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller.
I dug a hole on this one, yeah.
Emm...Yeah...now I remember: The point being that it is random, and that it is by inspiration and more specifically self-delusion, hiding from our true selves, the more difficult you as God is to find, the more exiting it gets.
So you plan to be as random as you can.
-------------------- The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.

Edited by slaphappy (10/19/06 05:17 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: slaphappy]
#6185489 - 10/19/06 08:51 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just as likely as anything else as far as I can fathom.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: niteowl]
#6185498 - 10/19/06 08:53 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Every time you feel Gods presence......it is really just the Gaia spirit talking to you.
This is my gut feeling. Especially fits in with my solo trips on the mountainside.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Moonshoe
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Moonshoe]
#6186087 - 10/19/06 11:47 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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hmm. we are like infants who grew up all alone in a cradle. We have finally reached adulthood. Now we need to clean up our piss and shit, and be on our way?
--------------------
Everything I post is fiction.
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Icelander
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Moonshoe]
#6186143 - 10/19/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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. We have finally reached adulthood.
Whos we? I hardly ever come across a human who has reached adulthood.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Moonshoe
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Icelander]
#6186218 - 10/19/06 12:25 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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good point. I think humanity as a whole and most of us individuals have a way yet to go.
I was just thinking that if my theory is correct, earth has expended massive stores of its natural resources and energy to get humanity to the point it's at, in terms of technology, culture, evolution etc. But now the next step has to involve rebalancing with nature. Thats my most optimistic viewpoint anyways.
--------------------
Everything I post is fiction.
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Icelander
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Moonshoe]
#6186299 - 10/19/06 12:47 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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That's one of my possible explanations. 
I have others on all sides.
Moshe Feldenkrais said that if you have many ideas, you will have good ideas. 
We may not know which is most correct in this case.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (10/19/06 12:48 PM)
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Lion
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Icelander]
#6186385 - 10/19/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I recently learned about Hegel's (man, I would love to go back in time and dose that guy, but that's another topic in itself ) theory of thesis-negative synthesis. It really got me thinking about the implicit order we can find behind the evolution of planetary biology and, more recently (more importantly?), the synthesis of human culture.
A thought occurred to me in a discussion with a friend last night: Darwinism offers its theory of how life could have begun spontaneously out of a 'primordial soup' - but nowhere does it explain how organisms could be coded so that their primary goal is reproduction. Their argument is that it is logical, but why? Why does one organism exist to perpetuate its genetic material, if its going to the dirt anyway? This is a mechanism which cannot be explained by random causality, and it is the catalyst for the continuation of life itself across vast spans of time.
I remember watching a show about dolphins. They can refer to one another in the third person, coordinate complex group maneuvers by vocalizing, etc. But what really fascinated me was a story about a man and a dolphin which he befriended. This man would go out every day to the same reef with his snorkel and fins, and eventually developed a relationship with a dolphin based purely on play. He brought objects with him like shiny balls and spent hours in a play-dance with the dolphin. One day he found himself face to face with a 12-ft. hammerhead. The dolphin, which was well out of harm's way, swam at full speed and headbutted the hammerhead to the ground - it risked its own life for a play partner - not even a biological mother-child instinct or territorial dispute. To me this demonstrated Ideal Compassion - compassion worthy of putting one's life on the line. This was only sweetened by the nature of the two organisms' relationship - it was a purely aesthetic relationship. Tim Leary once said that the highest goal of man is to live in aesthetic life based on the dance. So perhaps hard-wired into evolution is the movement not only toward Compassion, but toward Play. To quote Terence McKenna quoting Heraclitus: "The Aeon is a child at play with rubber balls."
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Lion]
#6186453 - 10/19/06 01:23 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Very cool ideas. I'm not too qualified to delve into them completely. Veritas I hope will chime in here.
This harkens back to the post I made about experience. Play,and connection are powerful experience and I feel the loss of much of it in modern life. I think that's why I connected with Burning Man so powerfully. It combined technology with play. There was an amazing amount of "work" involved in building that city in one week. (The U.S. Military studied BM for desert warfare ) Yet it was a gifting community and it turned into a loving playground. Not perfect but a step forward in human interacting in American culture.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Lion]
#6186574 - 10/19/06 02:02 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
how organisms could be coded so that their primary goal is reproduction
Turn the question around: would an organism which was not primarily focused on reproduction avoid becoming extinct? Apparently not, since the organisms which manage to survive and be studied by science all prioritize reproduction. 
If a random genetic mutation either aids survival or does not interfere with survival, it will have a chance at being passed on to another generation. If it interferes with survival enough to reduce or eliminate passing on the genetic trait, then that mutation will not continue to be expressed.
This seems fairly simple & straightforward to me.
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Lion
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Veritas]
#6186942 - 10/19/06 03:23 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
how organisms could be coded so that their primary goal is reproduction
Turn the question around: would an organism which was not primarily focused on reproduction avoid becoming extinct? Apparently not, since the organisms which manage to survive and be studied by science all prioritize reproduction. 
If a random genetic mutation either aids survival or does not interfere with survival, it will have a chance at being passed on to another generation. If it interferes with survival enough to reduce or eliminate passing on the genetic trait, then that mutation will not continue to be expressed.
This seems fairly simple & straightforward to me.
Right. What I'm asking is, how do individual life-forms become coded for the survival of the species? At what point in the primordial soup was a mechanism formed in the basic building blocks of life which created the impulse to create more life? This is a broad philosophical question, I realize, but is something I think secular science overlooks: there is no inherent reason to exist if one life is confined between two infinities of non-existent, yet all life-forms prefer the future existence of their kind, despite their own imminent demise, over the demise of their species altogether.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Lion
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Lion]
#6186986 - 10/19/06 03:34 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I realize how convoluted this post is - I just woke up from a nap, so cut me some slack. Basically, I get that walruses want there to be more walruses in the future, but evolutionary theorists have never explained why in terms of the origins of life. It's a black hole in the theory, the universal (or planetary, at least) law that says creatures want there to be more creatures like them after they're dead.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Lion]
#6187044 - 10/19/06 03:47 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Isn't that like asking what's the meaning of life? Nobody can answer such questions with certainty.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lion
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Icelander]
#6187082 - 10/19/06 03:53 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Isn't that like asking what's the meaning of life? Nobody can answer such questions with certainty.
Hah, true! I guess I'm just bothered that science has kind of brushed the question off as incidental.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Lion]
#6187141 - 10/19/06 04:11 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm not sure they brushed it off as much as finding they have no way to address it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Todcasil
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: demiu5]
#6187218 - 10/19/06 04:34 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
demius said: just as cancers eat away at animals, did you ever think that maybe we are a cancer eating away at the "earth organism", grown so rampant it is unable to contain us until either it destroys itself or we take it down, in turn taking us down?
Concerning the morality, it is culture. How it developed, I do not know, but there is no constant morality.
why is cancer such a bad guy? Why is bacteria and Viri always painted as these evil entities bent on world domination, when that is not the case?
These organisms exist for a reason, even rampant cellular growth, aka cancer exists for a reason. Its difficult to think like that when its your grandmother or close relative having cancerous tissue, but it is a truth regardless of the emotional need to blame something for our dis-eases, even though, as a whole, we only have to look so far as ourselves.
On the subject of morality:
I believe that morality is an individual phenomenon just as much as a cultural and species phenomenon... It is important to realize that no one person or type of immoral peoples are reducing themselves to the level of reptiles... We all entertain the capacity for moral and ethical judgment, and exercise it daily... its just a matter of being self serving, or collectively serving.
In this crucial moment of our evolutionary process, its important to realize that we are all unified, there are no lessers and greaters in our species. We simply need to unify the idea of "better for one is better for the whole"... What do you think advanced consciousnesses like Christ were trying to instill into us? We are all children of God, and the advancement of the species is upon us every day we walk outside and choose to project UNITY and LOVE to the faces we meet, instead of thoughts of a SEPARATE existence? We are all cells in the same species organism. We are all facets in the crystal of God.
-------------------- Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect GODDESSES Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud GODS. ~Casil
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Todcasil
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Wasteland]
#6187229 - 10/19/06 04:36 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wasteland said: You say that Earth functions much like an organism.
I believe that this statement is merely an error in observation. The Earth itself is just thermal, kinectic and potential energy acting in traditional physical manners.
Isnt that a good definition for an organism, or perhaps a single cell of an organism?
-------------------- Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect GODDESSES Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud GODS. ~Casil
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Silversoul
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: niteowl]
#6188542 - 10/19/06 10:52 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said: Every time you feel Gods presence......it is really just the Gaia spirit talking to you.
I must disagree. Gaia emanates from God, not the other way around. The divine, in its fullness, encompasses far more than the earth spirit. I have personally felt the presence of this Earth spirit many times, but have also felt a greater divine presence which transcends the earthly domain.
--------------------
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Veritas

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Lion]
#6190234 - 10/20/06 10:13 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bug said: I realize how convoluted this post is - I just woke up from a nap, so cut me some slack. Basically, I get that walruses want there to be more walruses in the future, but evolutionary theorists have never explained why in terms of the origins of life. It's a black hole in the theory, the universal (or planetary, at least) law that says creatures want there to be more creatures like them after they're dead.
OK, let's say that random genetic mutation creates two types of walruses: one type pursues playing instead of procreation, and does not produce offspring, the other type pursues procreation, and produces many offspring.
Which mutation is a genetic "dead end" and which becomes a busy freeway?
This is not a matter of science dismissing something as incidental, it is self-evident. Unless you believe that a higher power "coded" organisms in a certain way, it is a simple matter of success or failure in genetic terms. Many organisms could occur which do not "want" more of their kind to be born, but they will inevitably fail (i.e. become extinct.)
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Veritas]
#6190265 - 10/20/06 10:19 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I feel sorry for the playing walruses. So happy, yet doomed
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Veritas

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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6190268 - 10/20/06 10:21 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Maybe some of them started having playful sex? (That's my preference.)
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Veritas]
#6190278 - 10/20/06 10:23 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Maybe humans could intervene and teach them to procreate dutifully...maybe use a 12 step program or some such....all in all I agree.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6190305 - 10/20/06 10:28 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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"Non-procreators Anonymous"?
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Moonshoe]
#6190709 - 10/20/06 12:09 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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"And to answer another posters question, yes i think this differs very significantly from the actions of a bee in blind service to the hive.
I think this is the first real emergence of the seeds of a true spiritual morality" This other poster was me. Hmm ? You think only those complex brains will build up the first real emergence of the seeds of a true spiritual morality ? After processing that a while and thinking in both directions I have to disagree and stay with my first statement. I always can see the outcome of 'human' morality in more simple organisms as well....very much. They simply have no way to chose, that makes the difference, as they live out their most effective way of life. But I see, as well, perhaps that what you meant, and that would be 'intention'. This is a lack in simpler complex forms of existence, as they were defined out of themselves, unlike us, who might forget that too easily. Those intentions, who are in opposite to the natural most effective way of survival, this seems mostly to come from more complex life-forms.
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Moonshoe
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6191423 - 10/20/06 02:53 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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"I see, as well, perhaps that what you meant, and that would be 'intention'."
absolutely, i think the element of choice or will is important.
--------------------
Everything I post is fiction.
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slaphappy
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Moonshoe]
#6196606 - 10/22/06 04:21 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Haha, I just realized we have a free will, but it only works if you choose the right one together.
Slack is the only free will, hahaha. Sounds lame. Hm. Jesus.
The more you stray from the will of the planet, in this theory, the more free will you "use". If your intention is the same as the planets, you kind of uses your free will, but you chose the will of the community, rather than your own will, so in reality you would be using the free will of Gaia instead of your own.
Ahem.
This brings back all these wicked memories about reading about Lucifers will to be himself, and God wanting life to live for all life.
I'm off my tits stoned, right now.
Anyway, the reason it only works if you choose the will of Gaia, is because your will is a collectively destructive one. Sustaining isn't our will. Our will is a purely destructive one. Not by nature. By spirit. Haha.
Quote:
Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. hang on or be humbled again.
Clutch it like a cornerstone. otherwise it all comes down. Justify denials and grip it to the lonesome end. Saturn ascends, comes round again. Saturn ascends, the one, the ten. ignorant to the damage done.
Hmm...what to pick, what to pick...
-------------------- The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.

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