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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Veritas]
    #6183780 - 10/18/06 09:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Does the ape help another ape because he believes it is right, or because (generations earlier) un-cooperative, non-empathic ape's genetic lines were less likely to be continued? (You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours, we'll all still be alive to procreate.)



I'd say that which is morally right is that which aids our collective evolution(the evolution of Gaia, to be specific). In this sense, I think that evolution is a spiritual process.


--------------------


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Silversoul]
    #6184357 - 10/18/06 11:41 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I guess I see evolution in more practical terms: if a random genetic mutation can be successful (live long enough to produce genetically similar offspring), then it will continue to occur. If it cannot be successful, then it will not. If it causes an organism to be more genetically successful than others nearby, then that organism will dominate the area.

Cooperative animals may find it easier to compete with non-cooperative animals, and therefore spend more time making cooperatively-inclined babies. No right or wrong about it.

This is the simplest explanation, and does not require a creator or morality. Whether a creator or an objective morality exist is beside the point. (For me, anyway.)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Veritas]
    #6184440 - 10/19/06 12:08 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup:


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Icelander]
    #6185104 - 10/19/06 06:33 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
My question would be, is earth conscious in a way that we can relate to.




:yesnod:

Every time you feel Gods presence......it is really just the Gaia spirit talking to you.

Consciousness is layered.
One can only relate to the next level of consciousness.
Gaia being the true creator of life on earth, is the next level of consciousness for us.

Is there a CreatorOfTheUniverseGOD........I'm sure there is.......but we will never commune with IT because it's too far removed from our level of consciousness.

:2cents:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Veritas]
    #6185120 - 10/19/06 06:47 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Verities said:
I guess I see evolution in more practical terms: if a random genetic mutation can be successful (live long enough to produce genetically similar offspring), then it will continue to occur.  If it cannot be successful, then it will not.  If it causes an organism to be more genetically successful than others nearby, then that organism will dominate the area.




The flaw in your logic is that you believe that these mutations are random.
They are driven by an intelligence that knows what direction the mutation needs to go. :wink:

My belief that they are Gaia driven is just as provable as your belief that they are completely random.

Where you only see accidental mutations, I see conscious inspiration.
Life being an accident to you.......life being a deliberate creation to me.

Neither opinion is right or wrong, it's only a difference in perspective.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: niteowl]
    #6185133 - 10/19/06 07:05 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I like this thread.

If God exists, it must be as the collective consciousness, in this theory, like the collective cells in our bodies make up our consciousness as a whole, so must it be for the CONTAINER (I didn't say creator, seeing as something might be bigger than God itself which might also live in a universe of immense size and complexity in comparison to God itself) which this universe is a part of, or exist within.

I think its very likely that our universe is a tiny fraction of a much bigger being than we can possibly imagine, and that this being again is just a tiny fraction of his universe which is again a tiny fraction in a much much bigger being ... and so on ... forever.

God ... I'm stoned. :smile:

Edit: I forgot what half of the thread was about.

The appearant whims of mutation, I suspect could be viewed as a lot of different things. Randomness. Inspiration. Will. Intent. But I'd like to apply my two cents and try to flip it all on its head.

Bear with me now:

You are the center of all universes. Ok? Check.
You are the one. The one true God. You have existed forever, and will live forever, and everything is your creation, which you deliberately forget, in order to discover yourself over and over, in an eternity of different plays, universes, universal laws, you name it. OK? CHECK.

Now, if you have allways existed, what we see as evolution must be an illusion. Now consider this: Life started at *this exact moment*, and I'm not talking about now being now being now, and that everything has always been now. No I'm saying that this second in time&space - you created all of history, and all of the future. Seeing as history now, by this definition, works backwards from your viewpoint in consciousness - you don't descend from apes, the apes descend from your consciousness splitting itself up into pieces and arranged in a chronological line creating an (if you may) illusion of time which really never happened - but must have happened, for you to even be here. Hence creating the illusion of existence itself.

Now consider this happening perpetually, constantly, always, every nanosecond, every blink of an eye, everytime you open a door, everytime you take a step, and everytime everytime always and forever.

The more you look, the more you find. The bigger it gets.

You get smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller.

The further you see, the more you find. The bigger it gets.

You get smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller.

I dug a hole on this one, yeah.

Emm...Yeah...now I remember: The point being that it is random, and that it is by inspiration and more specifically self-delusion, hiding from our true selves, the more difficult you as God is to find, the more exiting it gets.

So you plan
to be as random
as you can.

:crazy2: :smirk:


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


Edited by slaphappy (10/19/06 07:17 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: slaphappy]
    #6185489 - 10/19/06 10:51 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:grin: :wink: Just as likely as anything else as far as I can fathom.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: niteowl]
    #6185498 - 10/19/06 10:53 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Every time you feel Gods presence......it is really just the Gaia spirit talking to you.

This is my gut feeling. Especially fits in with my solo trips on the mountainside.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Moonshoe]
    #6186087 - 10/19/06 01:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

hmm. we are like infants who grew up all alone in a cradle. We have finally reached adulthood. Now we need to clean up our piss and shit, and be on our way?


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Moonshoe]
    #6186143 - 10/19/06 02:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

. We have finally reached adulthood.

Whos we? :wink: I hardly ever come across a human who has reached adulthood.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Icelander]
    #6186218 - 10/19/06 02:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

good point. I think humanity as a whole and most of us individuals have a way yet to go.

I was just thinking that if my theory is correct, earth has expended massive stores of its natural resources and energy to get humanity to the point it's at, in terms of technology, culture, evolution etc. But now the next step has to involve rebalancing with nature. Thats my most optimistic viewpoint anyways.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Moonshoe]
    #6186299 - 10/19/06 02:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

That's one of my possible explanations. :wink:

I have others on all sides.

Moshe Feldenkrais said that if you have many ideas, you will have good ideas. :wink:

We may not know which is most correct in this case. :confused:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (10/19/06 02:48 PM)


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OfflineLion
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Icelander]
    #6186385 - 10/19/06 03:09 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I recently learned about Hegel's (man, I would love to go back in time and dose that guy, but that's another topic in itself  :tongue: ) theory of thesis-negative synthesis.  It really got me thinking about the implicit order we can find behind the evolution of planetary biology and, more recently (more importantly?), the synthesis of human culture. 

A thought occurred to me in a discussion with a friend last night: Darwinism offers its theory of how life could have begun spontaneously out of a 'primordial soup' - but nowhere does it explain how organisms could be coded so that their primary goal is reproduction.  Their argument is that it is logical, but why?  Why does one organism exist to perpetuate its genetic material, if its going to the dirt anyway?  This is a mechanism which cannot be explained by random causality, and it is the catalyst for the continuation of life itself across vast spans of time.

I remember watching a show about dolphins.  They can refer to one another in the third person, coordinate complex group maneuvers by vocalizing, etc.  But what really fascinated me was a story about a man and a dolphin which he befriended.  This man would go out every day to the same reef with his snorkel and fins, and eventually developed a relationship with a dolphin based purely on play.  He brought objects with him like shiny balls and spent hours in a play-dance with the dolphin.  One day he found himself face to face with a 12-ft. hammerhead.  The dolphin, which was well out of harm's way, swam at full speed and headbutted the hammerhead to the ground - it risked its own life for a play partner - not even a biological mother-child instinct or territorial dispute.  To me this demonstrated Ideal Compassion - compassion worthy of putting one's life on the line.  This was only sweetened by the nature of the two organisms' relationship - it was a purely aesthetic relationship.  Tim Leary once said that the highest goal of man is to live in aesthetic life based on the dance.  So perhaps hard-wired into evolution is the movement not only toward Compassion, but toward Play.  To quote Terence McKenna quoting Heraclitus: "The Aeon is a child at play with rubber balls."


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Lion]
    #6186453 - 10/19/06 03:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Very cool ideas. I'm not too qualified to delve into them completely. Veritas I hope will chime in here.

This harkens back to the post I made about experience. Play,and connection are powerful experience and I feel the loss of much of it in modern life. I think that's why I connected with Burning Man so powerfully. It combined technology with play. There was an amazing amount of "work" involved in building that city in one week. (The U.S. Military studied BM for desert warfare :tongue:) Yet it was a gifting community and it turned into a loving playground. Not perfect but a step forward in human interacting in American culture.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Lion]
    #6186574 - 10/19/06 04:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

how organisms could be coded so that their primary goal is reproduction




Turn the question around: would an organism which was not primarily focused on reproduction avoid becoming extinct?  Apparently not, since the organisms which manage to survive and be studied by science all prioritize reproduction.  :shrug:

If a random genetic mutation either aids survival or does not interfere with survival, it will have a chance at being passed on to another generation.  If it interferes with survival enough to reduce or eliminate passing on the genetic trait, then that mutation will not continue to be expressed.

This seems fairly simple & straightforward to me.


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OfflineLion
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Veritas]
    #6186942 - 10/19/06 05:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

how organisms could be coded so that their primary goal is reproduction




Turn the question around: would an organism which was not primarily focused on reproduction avoid becoming extinct?  Apparently not, since the organisms which manage to survive and be studied by science all prioritize reproduction.  :shrug:

If a random genetic mutation either aids survival or does not interfere with survival, it will have a chance at being passed on to another generation.  If it interferes with survival enough to reduce or eliminate passing on the genetic trait, then that mutation will not continue to be expressed.

This seems fairly simple & straightforward to me.


Right.  What I'm asking is, how do individual life-forms become coded for the survival of the species?  At what point in the primordial soup was a mechanism formed in the basic building blocks of life which created the impulse to create more life?  This is a broad philosophical question, I realize, but is something I think secular science overlooks: there is no inherent reason to exist if one life is confined between two infinities of non-existent, yet all life-forms prefer the future existence of their kind, despite their own imminent demise, over the demise of their species altogether.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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OfflineLion
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Lion]
    #6186986 - 10/19/06 05:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I realize how convoluted this post is - I just woke up from a nap, so cut me some slack. Basically, I get that walruses want there to be more walruses in the future, but evolutionary theorists have never explained why in terms of the origins of life. It's a black hole in the theory, the universal (or planetary, at least) law that says creatures want there to be more creatures like them after they're dead.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Lion]
    #6187044 - 10/19/06 05:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Isn't that like asking what's the meaning of life? Nobody can answer such questions with certainty.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineLion
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Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Icelander]
    #6187082 - 10/19/06 05:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Isn't that like asking what's the meaning of life? Nobody can answer such questions with certainty.


Hah, true!  :tongue:  I guess I'm just bothered that science has kind of brushed the question off as incidental.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleIcelander
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Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: The Gaia Hypothesis, evolutionary morality and the next step [Re: Lion]
    #6187141 - 10/19/06 06:11 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not sure they brushed it off as much as finding they have no way to address it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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