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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflinePed
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On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory
    #6871071 - 05/04/07 07:30 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Deleted


Edited by Ped (05/04/07 04:13 PM)


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory [Re: Ped]
    #6871099 - 05/04/07 08:00 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

How, why, what...as you say "rationalist at heart". There are all the
secrets you're looking for: rationality has no rational foundation.
Copy and paste, inset into topic "evolution".


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InvisibleRecondicom
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Re: On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory [Re: Ped]
    #6871218 - 05/04/07 09:29 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I’m somewhat immersed in the theories of causality and the new synesthetic findings of multi-sensory processes within the brain. Evolutionary forces go forward and music seems to be the most ancient form of communication. My thinking goes in the direction of the theory of the elements. Harmony, beauty and union in the choices that contain the precious element of freedom are favored by natural evolution. Sophism has made a claim that speech has convoluted ways which makes the truth a subjective quantity. Decay in the truth withheld in the language of thought. Hence, inherited trends are resolved in a positive way using a synesthetic approach to music (the gift of few). Reaching and finding the distortions in the graphemes of distant past, and making of them a sound of prayer in the wind… set them free. Goodness exists in the deeds. ¿Will evolution grant equality to the principle in which the gifted pray? ¿Do you find that your prayers are not your own? ¿Do you find the need too strong? Then your gift is a curse and is given the voice to the unknown… for better or worse… like a song… like the stone… drum… drum.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory [Re: Recondicom]
    #6871355 - 05/04/07 10:22 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I am not sure why you are demanding an explanation for your precise phenotypic configuration cued rigidly to genetics and melded back into a stream that validates evolution.

evolution supports the understanding of lineage of most obvious things, structural morphology. Morphology has been quite obvious since the early days of meat eaters. The bones of it are residual of eating the meat.

we are just now beginning to glom onto what the cerebrum does (like a retina onto associative electrical patterns), what the cerebellum does (multi timer - very key to coordination and MUSIC), how the medulla and reticulum are involved (in mental states, and in jamming body signals or gating them through), and the more central structures thalamus and basal ganglia (for feedback - the very grip we have on sensation and thought/memory).

we are just beginning to see how cadence (a musical aspect of sound arrangements in time) is core to speech development, which likely is learning based upon associated cadences with body feeling in situations...

These are all things that we can directly know to greater and lesser extents just by observing carefully.

More so now, as humans, than the creatures that roamed 50 million years ago, some morphological relations to the brain structures, but no need to be hasty in making any single one of us so important as to annaounce an evolutionary conjecture of purpose.

That would be begging for religion. just begging for a chance to be musical christ figure, or a cerebro cybernetic genius.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory [Re: Ped]
    #6871467 - 05/04/07 10:58 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I like to boil evolutionary theory down to very simple terms:

CAN and CAN'T.  :grin:

In the case of the original genetic mutation, the question is "can this particular combination occur, given all the possible ways in which DNA can be arranged."  The answer is either "can" or "can't."

Once a given mutation has occurred, the question becomes "can this combination persist long enough and successfully enough to pass on 50% of its' genetic material to a new organism?"  Again, the answer is "can" or "can't."

Realize that this second question leaves the field open for many genetic combinations which do not interfere with successful reproduction, but which may not in any way aid successful reproduction OR survival! 

IOW, if a given mutation does not detract in a fatal manner, it may persist.  In the case of humans, many seemingly non-survival-related traits (such as musical ability) may have aided survival by assuring continued inclusion in the tribe.  :shrug:

Plus, chicks dig musicians.  :naughty:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory [Re: Ped]
    #6871499 - 05/04/07 11:11 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

> How does my music serve my survival, or the propagation of my genes?

The same way a birds brightly colored feathers help attract a mate... assuming we are speaking of "survival" meaning survival of your genetic material through your children.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory [Re: Seuss]
    #6871544 - 05/04/07 11:26 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Or perhaps the music serves to benefit one's state of mind, which enables one to be more effective in navigating reality...


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory [Re: Ped]
    #6871675 - 05/04/07 12:11 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
Music seems to come naturally to me; I do not even understand how such things can materialize before me as I sit at a piano. How does evolution account for this? How does my music serve my survival, or the propagation of my genes? It does not. It is this musical anomaly which seems to have arisen without cause or purpose. It has no justification. What does this tell us about the finality of evolutionary theory in it's present condition? If evolutionary theory cannot account for this, is this cause to fall back upon the religious viewpoints which are now reputed for wreaking chaos and misery upon the earth?




Well, an evolutionary pyschologist would certainly argue that music did in fact serve an evolutionary function. It draws people together deepening social bonds and a group's ability to communicate and form culture. Humans are, as we all know, immensely social. We require social groups in order to survive so anything that would serve the function of strengthening those bonds would be an adaptive development. There's also the matter of humans having an incredibly complex brain, and symbolic thought. We never got claws or wings or the ability to run particularly fast, so symbolic thought is the major evolutionary adaptation humans got. Music is an obvious outcome of that ability. Maybe it's a byproduct of a thought pattern that allowed us to be better at surviving, and then itself turned out to improve our ability to survive as described above.

Maybe you won't buy that, and that's fine. It's just a theory. But it certainly contradicts your argument that there is no evolutionary account for the ability to make music.


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OfflineCherk
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Re: On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6871817 - 05/04/07 12:52 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

the chicken and the egg only expect us to move
ready to peck to death or hide the nest

if we want time to equal time
we learn a lot about ourselves
from an eggshell since we already ate the chicken


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


Edited by Cherk (05/04/07 12:52 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory [Re: Ped]
    #6871990 - 05/04/07 01:43 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, things don't necessarily 'evolve into better'. That's why there were so many lifeforms extinct in history, even without humans.
Because there was something else 'better', or the process of 'change', inherent in evolution did lead to an improper fitting to the environment or even to its own life built system, too. Like veritas expressed with 'can' and 'can't' [thanks for that !].

At least, the 'better' will still persist, even if it's through the washing machine of 'suffering'. The 'betterment' gets a direction there...

:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory [Re: Ped]
    #6872031 - 05/04/07 01:58 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The next time you think of judging an alcoholic, remember that it's society's most warm-hearted and compassionate who succumb to this addiction.




How can I 'remember' something that is not even remotely true? This is one of the feeblest rationalizations I have heard in a long while.

Quote:

Music seems to come naturally to me; I do not even understand how such things can materialize before me as I sit at a piano. How does evolution account for this?



:yawn:

1. We have covered this too many times to count, brother Ped. Lack of current understanding only points to lack of current understanding; not any form of mysticism.

2. Evolutionary theory does not claim to be able to account for the trillions of behaviours of millions of species, now does it? (source please) Your form of challenge is yet another strawman, not even thinly disguised.


--------------------


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory [Re: Ped]
    #6872040 - 05/04/07 02:02 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Evolutionary biology cannot account for the incredible uniquities of the human race. For example; I am a gifted musician. I hope I can state this without it being perceived as vanity. Without succumbing to pride or self-congratulation, I can say objectively that my talent with music is far greater than my own understanding. Music seems to come naturally to me; I do not even understand how such things can materialize before me as I sit at a piano. How does evolution account for this? How does my music serve my survival, or the propagation of my genes?




Well Ped you know, genes are complicated shit :grin:. Until now the scientists only managed to "decode" 7% of them, which leaves 93% in the darkness of the unknown... and they're being called "junk DNA"  :rolleyes: ... just because we don't know what they do yet. Now I'm sure that they're not "junk" and that they play an important role lol. Imagine what incredible stuff there can be in that 93%. That's A LOT.

Having to ask what does music help for and how they relate to the DNA is like asking why do we have feeling and what do they help with? I think it;s pretty damn obvious what they do :wink:. What we can't "understand", rationalize, discern with our minds, it doesn't mean that they don't have a purpose... it just means... that we're being able to grasp them... at least not yet.
All these "gifts", talents, are here and as we can notice from simply observing life, they play a huge role in our evolution and understanding. Music can create and vast platform of feelings and new ideas. Those feeling and new ideas help us find out more about life, discover new things, so they're directly responsible for our evolution. :smile:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory [Re: Ped]
    #6872054 - 05/04/07 02:08 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Musical talent and "the arts" were a by product of us becoming a society. People like music and pretty pictures and were able to make a living doing it......therefore allowing them to survive with in a society, when they may not have the physical ability to survive on their own.

:shrug:

:2cents:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflineCherk
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Re: On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory [Re: Cherk]
    #6872083 - 05/04/07 02:18 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

maybe my ears need some light to bounce off of


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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OfflineCherk
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Re: On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory [Re: Cherk]
    #6872102 - 05/04/07 02:25 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

maybe this all bounced back long ago


please fill my guts with music


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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OfflineCherk
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Re: On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory [Re: Ped]
    #6872124 - 05/04/07 02:33 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

you have to account that the embryo and the earth take near the same amount of time to develope
and that the sun only pulls the moon round


and I got 20 million ways to go
goodbye


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: On the inadequacy of evolutionary theory [Re: Cherk]
    #6872134 - 05/04/07 02:37 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

:bye:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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