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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: freddurgan] * 1
    #3851140 - 03/01/05 10:57 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Evolution is a theory as much as gravity is a theory. Sorry, but its a FACT.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851153 - 03/01/05 11:03 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yep, read this:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

Quote:


In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."

Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

- Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981





--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Phluck]
    #3851161 - 03/01/05 11:05 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah I found something useful too.

http://necsi.org/projects/evolution/lamarck/intro./lamarck_intro.html

It's simple but it's to the point.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851163 - 03/01/05 11:07 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I believe that our ability to adapt has much more to do with our "evolution" than random mutations. That the ability to adapt to the environment is the driving force behind the mutations.

What are you basing this on? A guess?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: freddurgan]
    #3851169 - 03/01/05 11:11 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Nice link.  :thumbup:


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851219 - 03/01/05 11:27 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Evolution does not occur as fast as you seem to think it does. It does not occur in the timespan of a single generation. It takes millions of years for evolution to progress even slightly.

When evolution occurs as a result of environmental pressure (say, it gets colder) it is not because a mutation happens WHEN the pressure begins...the mutation has already occured, possibly millions of years prior, and exists in a large portion of the species. The pressure then causes the members of the species who do NOT have the mutation (say, one that causes a thicker, warmer coat of fur) will either die off due to the pressure, or migrate to areas where they can still survive. In either case, we are left with a "new" species: one which is able to survive in the new environment.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisibleniteowl Happy Birthday!
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: Phluck]
    #3851225 - 03/01/05 11:28 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If a dog's ears are cropped short, its puppies are still born with long ears. If someone exercises every day, runs marathons, eats well, and is generally very healthy, the fitness is not passed on and the person's children still have to work just as hard to get that fit and healthy.




These are POOR examples to use to disprove Lamarck's theory of evolution. The dogs ears were cut by a person NOT the result of environmental changes. Their was no environmental need for the ears to be cut, only aesthetic. The same can be said about the exercising. It isn't a result of adapting to ones environment. We ALL have the ability to exercise.

Trying to observe evolution in 1 generation is somewhat naive.


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Don't be bogged down by your past
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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851228 - 03/01/05 11:30 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Trying to observe evolution in 1 generation is somewhat naive.




Quote:


If the weather begins to get colder and we need to adapt to the new environment the change cant come from the woman, her eggs are already formed at birth. Only the mans ability to adapt will get "programed" into his new sperm, causing his offspring to have a better ability to cope with the colder weather.




Which one is it, then? Does evolution occur in a single generation, or not?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisibleniteowl Happy Birthday!
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: trendal]
    #3851254 - 03/01/05 11:42 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Which one is it, then? Does evolution occur in a single generation, or not?




Mutations (adaptation) can occur in a single generation. It does, however, take years for the mutation to spread to other generations.

Not all men will mutate their genetic code(sperm). Those that can adapt, pass this adaptation onto their children. Any female that he fathers, will then have the cold adaption gene added to their genetic code (eggs). Then her children will prosper in the new colder environment and have a better chance of survival.

The change came from the mans ability to adapt(change his genetic code) which he passed on to his offspring.


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Don't be bogged down by your past
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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851264 - 03/01/05 11:45 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Those that can adapt, pass this adaptation onto their children.

Can you please explain how this occurs?

I know of no known way to cause a system-wide change in DNA coding in ANY organism beyond single-celled life. At the very most, you could cause a single sex cell to mutate however this is NOT caused by environmental pressure and the SAME thing can (and does) happen to female eggs.

The change came from the mans ability to adapt(change his genetic code) which he passed on to his offspring.

Again, please explain how an organism can change its genetic code.


--------------------
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But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851269 - 03/01/05 11:48 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)


Mutations (adaptation) can occur in a single generation. It does, however, take years for the mutation to spread to other generations.

Not all men will mutate their genetic code(sperm). Those that can adapt, pass this adaptation onto their children. Any female that he fathers, will then have the cold adaption gene added to their genetic code (eggs). Then her children will prosper in the new colder environment and have a better chance of survival.

The change came from the mans ability to adapt(change his genetic code) which he passed on to his offspring.


You are wrong. This doesn't occur at all. There is no mechanism that alters DNA in gametes because of environmental changes. Period.


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Invisibleniteowl Happy Birthday!
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: looner2]
    #3851291 - 03/01/05 11:55 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Has anyone ever taken the sperm from a man when he is 20 and compared it to his sperm when he is 40?

That would be the only way IMO to see if their is any change in his genetic code.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851295 - 03/01/05 11:57 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

That still doesn't explain how it occurs.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851302 - 03/01/05 12:00 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah. It's the same in the sense that the specific alleles for every gene are the same. But the 23 homologous chromosomes line up and split randomly, and crossing over occurs, which creates a vast array of genetically different gametes, but again, the alleles are the same.

You really should pick up a biology book, it'll answer your questions.


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Invisibleniteowl Happy Birthday!
GrandPaw
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: looner2]
    #3851314 - 03/01/05 12:06 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
You are wrong. This doesn't occur at all. There is no mechanism that alters DNA in gametes because of environmental changes. Period.




Then how do you explain the genetic mutations near the Chernoble(sp) accident.


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Live for the moment you are in now
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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851329 - 03/01/05 12:10 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Then how do you explain the genetic mutations near the Chernoble(sp) accident.

I think what he meant that there is no internal cellular function for altering the DNA code.

Obviously the genetic mutations near Chernobyl are a result of irradiation from the fallout and heavy contamination of the area due to the accident. No mystery there.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851367 - 03/01/05 12:18 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

These are POOR examples to use to disprove Lamarck's theory of evolution. The dogs ears were cut by a person NOT the result of environmental changes. Their was no environmental need for the ears to be cut, only aesthetic. The same can be said about the exercising. It isn't a result of adapting to ones environment. We ALL have the ability to exercise.

But Lamarck thought that by trying to say, reach for fruits higher up, a giraffe would stretch out its neck and pass that trait on to its children.

We actually have the ability to look at DNA and how it changes. We can see what traits are passed on, and what aren't. We can see how DNA changes over the lifespan of an organism.

People certainly don't magically grow genetic changes to their advantage when they need them. Nothing like this has EVER been observed.

We actually know quite a bit about DNA. We've done tons of experiments. We're able to pinpoint genetic data for specific functions. Mix and match it. Observe changes.

Before inventing wild theories about how genetics work, you might want to do some research and see what we already know about genetics, and how we found that information out.

Once you've got a better understanding of it, you will be much more qualified to speculate about it.

Would you feel comfortable telling someone who designed microchips that their understanding of how electricity works on a microscopic level is all wrong? If not, why do you feel comfortable saying that geneticists have it all wrong and you know better than they do?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisibleniteowl Happy Birthday!
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: trendal]
    #3851386 - 03/01/05 12:24 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Obviously the genetic mutations near Chernobyl are a result of irradiation from the fallout and heavy contamination of the area due to the accident. No mystery there.





Yes but it IS a genetic change due to an environmental change. Which was stated earlier to be impossible. It is a drastic change I agree, a change that we can see in our lifetime. The question remains was the change a result of the organisms trying to adapt to the new environment or not.

I tend to think we are the ones in control of our destiny. We change and adapt to the environment, and pass these changes to our offspring.

Im not sure that this viewpoint can be proven, its just another "theory".


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851395 - 03/01/05 12:27 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yes but it IS a genetic change due to an environmental change.

That's not genetic change due to environmental change, that's genetic change due to damage from radiation. It's certainly not adaptation in any sense.

The question remains was the change a result of the organisms trying to adapt to the new environment or not.

The question does not remain. We know what caused the genetic changes; damage from radiation.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Evolutionary changes [Re: niteowl]
    #3851408 - 03/01/05 12:31 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

The question remains was the change a result of the organisms trying to adapt to the new environment or not.

Well, no, that question doesn't remain.

Please explain how a high-energy gamma ray or other form of ionizing radiation encountering and thus damaging a DNA molecule is the same thing as "the organisms trying to adapt to the environment".

I am not, and never was, arguing that environmental pressure does not cause evolutionary change. What I am saying is that the organism itself is not the one "responsible" for the genetic mutation. In many (in fact, probably MOST) cases of genetic mutation, the mutation results in either a benign function which provides no immediate evolutionary advantage or it causes a system-wide failure of the organism containing the mutation (ie: IT DOESN'T SURVIVE).

If organisms were able to alter their own DNA to their own advantage, I would not expect to see so many DESTRUCTIVE mutations in the DNA molecule.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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