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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: trendal]
    #4461532 - 07/27/05 10:07 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

So at the beginning of Inflation, the energy field in the Universe was almost perfectly even at every point in space.




i can't help but wonder, why are there many different worlds, instead of one undifferentiated world?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: Ped]
    #4461639 - 07/27/05 10:35 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
Lets see.. occured spontaneously?  Check.  Unsummoned by a previous cause?  Check.  Occurs entirely of its own accord?  Check.  Yep, sounds like a miracle to me.  How remarkably unscientific!




Quote:

trendal said:
This is strictly a theory of physical existence contained within this Universe. As such, I will not attempt to explain what existed "before" this Universe, "outside" this Universe, nor what actually caused this Universe to come into existence. My story will start with Time Zero - the first moment after Creation occurred.




I doubt anything scientific can be said about what exists outside of this Universe. Our science is all rooted in this Universe, with its particular physics and Laws. It cannot be used to explain anything beyond this reality :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4461667 - 07/27/05 10:44 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

crunchytoast said:
Quote:

So at the beginning of Inflation, the energy field in the Universe was almost perfectly even at every point in space.




i can't help but wonder, why are there many different worlds, instead of one undifferentiated world?




I said almost perfectly even :wink:

There were microscopic quantum "jitters" in the field level, at every point in the field. When inflation began these quantum-level differences were streched out with the fabric of space, so that they became large-scale differences in the density of the gas cloud that formed.

The way the resulting cloud "looked" (the pattern of more and less dense areas) would be perfectly random - an exact blown-up image of the quantum-level fluctuations just before inflation began.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: trendal]
    #4461772 - 07/27/05 11:13 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

yeah- that's what's a little mind-boggling for me. i mean, why was there any unevenness at all? because of randomness.

i understand this to mean that there was a universe for each of the possible unevennesses, and we're the result of this one.

but why should there be unevenness (however slight) in the first place? i'm perplexed


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: Ped]
    #4463512 - 07/28/05 07:34 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

> On the contrary, there cannot be a first event for cause and effect.

Within the confines of duality. Did duality exist before reality or were they created together, dependent upon one another?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4463553 - 07/28/05 07:52 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

but why should there be unevenness (however slight) in the first place? i'm perplexed

That's something I'm not fully sure of, either.

On a quantum scale, all things are "uneven" in that they fluctuate rapidly around a certain value...instead of actually being a certain value.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: Ped]
    #4463593 - 07/28/05 08:20 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> According to current theory, the Big Bang came into existence by two 11th-dimensional membranes colliding into one another.

Not that I challenge this idea, but isn't this hotly contested right now? Certainly it cannot be spoken of as "current theory."




it is the most logical theory to have been proposed thus far. there are some problems with it, but once a theory of quantum gravity has been attained it should be straightened out.

naturally, the question 'where did the branes come from?' is asked. fuck knows. science will never answer the question of the first cause. the most logical theory is that existence (by this i mean existence transcending our universe; including all the branes and the 11-dimensional space they exist in) is infinite. existence is god, if you like. adding god as a separate thing to existence only complicates the problem. god as a separate thing is unnecessary. this is why i love spinoza so much, he said "there is only one substance - god or nature (deus sive natura) - god and the cosmos are one and the same". if i remember right he said something like the cosmos being a particular mode of god's being.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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OfflinePed
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: alsey]
    #4464709 - 07/28/05 03:36 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

>> Within the confines of duality. Did duality exist before reality or were they created together, dependent upon one another?

I don't understand how underlining the interdependence of cause and effect falls "within the confines" of duality. It's this idea that there was an original cause which will ultimately be followed by a final effect that is dualistic. How can an effect be dependent on an original cause, but a cause be independent of preceding effects? It's the non-duality of cause and effect which forces us to conceive of the universe as a continuum without beginning or end.


--------------------


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: Ped]
    #4465292 - 07/28/05 06:23 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

The problem with trying to apply "cause and effect" to whatever existed "before" this Universe is that the very concept of "cause and effect" is built upon this Universe - especially the fact that this Universe experiences a directional Time dimension.

There is nothing to suggest that Time exists beyond the confines of this Universe. Without Time, cause-and-effect makes no sense (how can cause "preceed" effect when there is no orderly progression of events?).

Thus while the concept of "cause and effect" includes the notion that no effect can happen without a cause...we must realize that, for the special case of THIS Universe, there was an initial cause (the Creation event) which does not have a cause of its own.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: trendal]
    #4465310 - 07/28/05 06:30 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I find whenever a discussion of The Big Bang, or the Creation Event (or whatever you wish to call it) springs up, inevitably the question will be posed: what happened before The Bang?

While I have already pointed out that no true scientific theory can be proposed about something external to this Universe...I do enjoy toying with various notions of what might exist beyond this Universe and, more importantly, what might have caused this Universe to come into existence.

I often wonder on the implications of Inflation. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the large-scale organization of the Universe is thought to have arisen when Inflation caused the expansion of quantum-scale fluctuations into large-scale differences in gas cloud density.

The exact point-by-point values for the field at the moment Inflation began can be considered the "starting point" for the Universe (even though, being quantum, those values are indeterminable). Now if we assume that there are an infinite set of possible states for this field at the moment of Inflation, we can see that each specific state will result in a specific Universe.

If you like the Multiverse idea....it may be that the Multiverse began at the moment of Inflation - when every possible state of the field expanded into a separate Universe.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: trendal]
    #4465314 - 07/28/05 06:31 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

we must realize that, for the special case of THIS Universe, there was an initial cause (the Creation event) which does not have a cause of its own.




In the beginning God said "let there be light" and there was light. :levitate:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: psychomime]
    #4465332 - 07/28/05 06:36 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psychomime said:
In the beginning God said "let there be light" and there was light. :levitate:




More or less, yes :smile:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: trendal]
    #4466155 - 07/28/05 10:16 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Nice post, Trendal. I enjoyed reading it.

I also regard my existence from a scientific viewpoint. I'm not as versed as you. Infact, I don't know much about science at all. I figure that it's not necessary to know. I plan on studying more as time goes on, but I'm not in any rush.

I figure that I can find my own way through life by using logic and reason. I don't discount the idea of spiritual existence, but I haven't experienced anything to make me beleive that my existence is anything more than a composition of matter working together to form a concious, cognitive being. If there is anything spiritual about me, it will inherently show itself in my life. The only thing I need to know is this reality and my ideas about how I should live my life. As long as I follow my intuition and make the best choices I can, I can't go wrong.

Thanks again for the post.


--------------------
Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #4466160 - 07/28/05 10:17 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I figure that I can find my own way through life by using logic and reason. I don't discount the idea of spiritual existence, but I haven't experienced anything to make me beleive that my existence is anything more than a composition of matter working together to form a concious, cognitive being. If there is anything spiritual about me, it will inherently show itself in my life. The only thing I need to know is this reality and my ideas about how I should live my life. As long as I follow my intuition and make the best choices I can, I can't go wrong.




:thumbup:

I live the same way, man!


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: Silversoul]
    #4466577 - 07/28/05 11:45 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

"According to current theory, the Big Bang came into existence by two 11th-dimensional membranes colliding into one another. "

What is an 11th-dimensional membrane????

Edit:  :thumbup: i like your posts trendal


Edited by MJF (07/28/05 11:46 PM)


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: trendal]
    #4466585 - 07/28/05 11:47 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

i wonder about this big bang thing.
if time was created with the big bang, then how can there be a first cause? like, the closer to the big bang you go, you would find things slowing down or something, so you'd have a more primal cause, and a more primal cause before that, and, and-- you'd never get to the big bang itself, because you cannot look back to before there was time.

IOW i wonder if there were infinite "causes" and no first cause.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Trendal's Unified Theory of Existence [Re: MJF]
    #4466615 - 07/28/05 11:53 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MJF said:
"According to current theory, the Big Bang came into existence by two 11th-dimensional membranes colliding into one another. "

What is an 11th-dimensional membrane????



It's kind of hard to explain, but hopefully this will help explain some of it.


--------------------


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