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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: andrewss]
    #11553766 -

Yeah still waiting to hear about those 3000 scientifically proven facts that disprove evolution. :tongue:

Btw science has shown that if alive, everone's heart is warm.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: Icelander]
    #11554929 -

Well, I don't any longer have the time to explore what it was I set out to in the begin of this thread, but I can at least touch on where I was going with all of this.

In my last post, I was talking about Descartes' I think therefore I am, and how it establishes truthfully or not, an interval of the forgetting and remembering being. While I personally don't think it touches on the being it claims, its interval no doubt, still has its usefulness...

Quote:
1

To breed an animal that is entitled to make promises—is that not precisely the paradoxical task nature has set itself where human beings are concerned? Isn’t that the real problem of human beings? . . . The fact that this problem has to a great extent been solved must seem all the more astonishing to a person who knows how to appreciate fully the power which works against this promise-making, namely forgetfulness. Forgetfulness is not merely a vis interiae [a force of inertia], as superficial people think. Is it much rather an active capability to repress, something positive in the strongest sense, to which we can ascribe the fact that while we are digesting what we alone live through and experience and absorb into ourselves (we could call the process mental ingestion [Einverseelung]), we are conscious of what is going  on as little as we are with the entire thousand-fold process which our bodily nourishment goes through (so-called physical ingestion [Einverleibung]). The doors and windows of consciousness are shut temporarily; they remain undisturbed by the noise and struggle with which the underworld of our functional organs keeps working for and against one another; a little stillness, a little tabula rasa [blank slate] of the consciousness, so that there will again be room for something new, above all, for the nobler functions and officials, for ruling, thinking ahead, determining what to do (for our organism is arranged as an oligarchy)—that is, as I said, the use of active forgetfulness, a porter at the door, so to speak, a custodian of psychic order, quiet, etiquette.

From that we can see at once how, if forgetfulness were not present, there could be no happiness, no cheerfulness, no hoping, no pride, no present. The man in whom this repression apparatus is harmed and not working properly we can compare to a dyspeptic (and not just compare)—he is “finished” with nothing. . . . Now, this particular animal, which is necessarily forgetful, in which forgetfulness is present as a force, as a form of strong health, has had an opposing capability bred into it, a memory, with the help of which, in certain cases, forgetfulness will cease to function—that is, for those cases where promises are to be made. This is in no way a merely passive inability ever to be rid of an impression once it has been etched into the mind, nor is it merely indigestion over a word one has pledged at a particular time  and which one can no longer be over and done with. No, it’s an active wish not to be free of the matter again, an ongoing and continuing desire for what one willed at a particular time, a real memory of one’s will, so that between the original “I will,” “I will do,” and the actual discharge of the will, its action, a world of strange new things, circumstances, even acts of the will can be interposed without a second thought and not break this long chain of the will. But how much all that presupposes! In order to organize the future in this manner, human beings must have first learned to separate necessary events from chance events, to think in terms of cause and effect, to see distant events as if they were present, to anticipate them, to set goals and the means to reach them with certainty, to develop a capability for figures and calculations in general—and for that to occur, a human being must necessarily have first himself become something one could predict, something bound by regular rules, even in the way he imagined himself to himself, so that finally he is able to act like someone who makes promises—he can make himself into a pledge for the future!

Nietzsche, Genealogy of Morals, essay two
Genealogy of Morals




What I have been trying to touch on, is the apparent juxtoposition between the active mind, (which I have previously described as language), and what we understand as the order of an arising mind, (previously, its reconciliation with evolution).

What is this interval; or "actively" considered, what is this apparent inversion, that Nietzsche seems to describe as forgetfulness? How is our rational animal - or is it animal rationale? What is the relationship between "humans", and their own/owned "animality"? What is the human to animal?

I also wanted to work up and through Derrida's address The Animal That therefore I am, which as you can see in the title, is an exploration into these depths, particular in the order of their arising.

In reading through this address, it is first of all important to understand the amount sort of trust we must put into his words, and what this trust is to what he is describing. Its something he calls "nudity". Here is a little bit from that address I typed up.

Quote:
To begin with, I would like to entrust myself to words that, were it possible, would be naked. Naked in the first place - but this is in order to announce already that I plan to speak endlessly of nudity and of the nude in philosophy. Starting from Genesis. I would like to choose words that are, to begin with, naked, quite simply, words from the heart. And to utter these words without repeating myself, without beginning again what I have already said here, more than once. It is said that one must avoid repeating oneself, but in order not to give the appearance of training [dressage], already of a habit or a convention that would in the long term program the very act of thanking...

...As for this conference, the third in something like a series, it seemed to me unimaginable, even excluded in advance. Last time, in 1992, when Didier Cahen alluded to its possibility in the attic on the last evening, asking me what the theme of a third conference would be, I still remember dismissing such a hypothesis: "This guy is crazy" I exclaimed. He wasn't so crazy, but the whole idea remains, like everything else that happens, and such is the condition for something to be able to happen, impossible to anticipate It is only after the event, reading the titles of these three meetings ("Les Fins de l'homme," "Le Passage des frontieres," "L'Animal autobiographique") with a feeling of uncanniness, that I perceived a sort of prescriptive arrangement, a preestablished if not harmonious order, a providential machine as Kant would say precisely concerning the animal, "als eine Maschine der Vorsehung," an obscure foresight, the process of a blind but sure prefiguration in the configuration: one and the same movement being outlined and seeking its end....later I began to hear in them, in these three kickoffs, what no one, least of all myself, had ever calculated, and what no one would be able to reappropriate, namely the outline or the temptation of a single phrase, a phrase offering more to follow. 

It follows, itself; it follows itself. It could say "I am," "I follow," "I follow myself," I am (in following) myself." In being pursued this way, consequentially, three times or in three rhythms, it would describe something like the course of a three-act play or the three movements of a syllogistic concerto, a displacement that becomes a suite, a result in a single word.

If I am to follow this suite [si je suis cette suite], and everything in what I am about to say will lead back to the question of what "to follow" or "to pursue" means, as well as "to be after," back to the question of what I do when "I am" or "I follow," when I say "je suis," if I am to follow this suite then, I move from "the ends of man," that is the confines of man, to "the crossing of borders" between man and animal. Crossing borders or the ends of man I come or surrender to the animal - to the animal in itself, to the animal in me and the animal at unease with itself, to the man about which Nietzsche said (I no longer remember where) something to the effect that it was an as yet undetermined animal, an animal lacking in itself. Nietzsche also said, at the very beginning of the second treatise of The Genealogy of Morals, that man is a promising animal, by which he meant, underlining those words, an animal that is permitted to make promises. Nature is said to have given itself the task of raising, bringing up, domesticating and disciplining this animal that promises...




I'll upload this essay in its entirety for anyone interested.

That's it for me, though I'll certainly continue to look in if this thread has anywhere to go. I might have been able to work my ideas together, or maybe its better I end here, accepting that we are limited to such associations or allegories when we are pondering the tree of life.

Cheers :bongload:

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11555073 -

On second thought, I probably shouldn't just upload the essay, for copyright reasons.

If anyone is interested to borrow the essay though, send me a PM and I'll share a copy.

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11556844 -

Nice thread (even though I hate this topic).

Simply put, evolution is the Gospel of Darwin.  And just like Christianity you have believers and non-believers.  When materialist science can provide a plausible answer for mind it will go a long way to providing real evidence for his gospel.

A theory that can explain every fact by interpretation explains nothing.


--------------------

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #11557045 -

And walking into a brick wall is called the "gospel of matter" purely subjective and without substantial evidence.

While there is some evidence of evolution there is noone for god.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: jimbotron]
    #11559985 -

What is environmental DNA?  To follow a lineage, you track the mutation of a protein in the DNA.  The molecular clock is just one of many facts that back evolution. There are some lingering questions such as language, but there is more proof of UFO's than a God.

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11562834 -

C.M. Mann said:
What is environmental DNA?  To follow a lineage, you track the mutation of a protein in the DNA.  The molecular clock is just one of many facts that back evolution. There are some lingering questions such as language, but there is more proof of UFO's than a God.



Let's say two bacteria are living next to each other, one dies and bursts open, its DNA is released. Bacteria are so simple that, under certain conditions, they can just suck up DNA from their surroundings and incorporate it.

I will also add here that evolution is a change in allele frequencies over time, which is not quite the same as speciation although the original post seems to conflate the two. Events such as infection with retroviruses (which insert themselves into the DNA of organisms) can and do contribute to evolution.


--------------------
BEST TEAM IN THE UNIVERSE

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: jimbotron]
    #11564282 -

What contributes to evolution is a separate question. By looking into a gene and following a particular mutated protein, science can trace it back to it's inception.  It doesn't matter why.

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11566306 -

Quote:
Do we recognize a difference between evolution and genealogical study? Do we recognize the existential inherence of uttering "evolution", in its very own profundity?

By that I am asking the question, what is the burden of context in representing evolution in the barest sense; in a given thought, or as we subsequently refer to it? Especially problematic to this burdensome context is one of "evidence", which problematically, is how the notion arose. It is simple to accept and embrace genealogical evidence and its perfect use for deconstructing inglorious institutions, but what follows in a matter of speaking, or representing evidently as "evolution", (the said prospect of being)...is well...questionable.



Interesting question.  And I'm not sure of a reasonable answer to it, but something you should take into account is the change of science over time.

These "trees-of-life" you posted are obviously kinda old.(that middle one is dated 1866)  They were probably arranged by morphological measures.

If you were to find a "Molecular" Tree-of-Life.  A tree that shows a staggering of genotypes with distant relatives containing different allele frequencies would be much more accurate.

With phylogenetic trees in past being morphological instead of molecular, this could overlook the question of what "genes" are beneficial rather than physical characteristics.

In addition to that, a species in one area, due to environmental factors/stressers that affect offspring are passed down in germ cells. These changes/stresses could affect the future offspring for better or worse.  I don't know if you recall Lamarck, but he was slandered and dismissed for saying the animal can consciously change its phenotype to, for instance, stretch its neck to get leaves from a tree.(vast generalization but this is the typical example attacking Lamarck) While this is not true, he was right about the environment affecting the organism.

So whether the species in question randomly developed an advantageous limb or, due to environmental stressors, the pregnant mother released weak androgens (as a result of stress), which circulated through the developing fetus and reprogrammed the expression of various genes.  Certain genes that A; affect morphological development, B; genes that affect behavior, and/or C; a combination of the two.  With this, lets not forget which genes may aid in survival, whether behaviorally or immunologically related.


This may not answer your question, but I feel you should take these tidbits of info into consideration and ask a new question.  Darwin may be partly the father of evolutionary theory (Lamarck should be given half the credit devising his thoughts 50yrs prior to Darwin), but times have changed and the trees of life now are molecular.  You need to narrow down the question a bit more.

To answer your last questions...  I'd say none of those are evolution in their evidential sense... Well, for the time they were produced, yes, they all could be, but now, no, not even close. 

Here's is a representation of evolution now, from a molecular stand-point.



--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: Cracka_X]
    #11566809 -

Cracka_X said:
So whether the species in question randomly developed an advantageous limb or, due to environmental stressors, the pregnant mother released weak androgens (as a result of stress), which circulated through the developing fetus and reprogrammed the expression of various genes.  Certain genes that A; affect morphological development, B; genes that affect behavior, and/or C; a combination of the two.  With this, lets not forget which genes may aid in survival, whether behaviorally or immunologically related.




Here's another tidbit published in The Scientist, July 15th, 2009.

Quote:
In a world without natural selection and no vast mountain ranges dividing populations, one might expect biodiversity to remain forever stagnant. But according to a study published this week in Nature, new species can arise arbitrarily and without provocation, challenging the widely held notion that physical isolation and selection are the driving forces behind speciation.



What is interesting to me is that some species do not evolve at all, at least little in the last 445 million years, e.g. the Horseshoe Crab.  So, evidently, these creatures had no environmental pressure, as numerous other creatures did in the same environment, or had no mutations that were more advantageous in any way whatsoever.

Hobbes anyone?


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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: Cracka_X]
    #11569761 -

Interesting...Very "centered" isn't it?

Could you explain what is its particular focus and center? Also, what makes it more modern or reliable?

Remember I'm talking about representing evolution. That's why I picked a variety of representations, not to mention the ones that you pointed out as "old", and one considered now by many to be abominably racist.

The image you bring to the table does seem somewhat different than the progression I drew - I don't know where I would drop it in that line. It is both very broad, and specific. I think you are correct that it makes the two middle pictures obselete. It should replace those.

But I don't see how the question can be narrowed, or broadened for this particular matter. I am inclined to idealize in a similar manner, toward a middle picture - but only so far as that a middle picture be included as one in the many portraits of evolution.

What you seem to suggest incomprehensiveness, is a movement towards broadness and specificity. Not only would it hold the all to limited humanistic portraits obselete (the middle ones), but the "ends" and "borders" of that human-being (the first and last pictures, concerning their bias and non-bias that beholds centrism) would also be seen as unnecessary in the realization of such an ideal. I realize this is a bit obscure, for further elaboration on this idea, see the Derrida quote in my last post.

So would you suggest a final "leg up" in modern representations; that the staggering of genes in the purview of molecular biology somehow taps into the essence of existence? Or is this staggering an optimistic step closer to some "fundamental interval" of what existence is?

Personally, I am more inclined to accept a dimensional understanding of evolution, with "ends and borders", as limited as they may be. These ends and borders are neither considered "too human", nor basic to reality, but the products of our questioning - which structurally, is our being. Ends and borders are crucial to representation, with all its limitations. Such a representation though, is of being, not as being.

Speculatively, a question lies "outside". On the other hand, positively, and as a declaration, we suffer the forgetting of one picture, for the evidence of another. I speculate, or positively represent the truth of evolution "as a flow", yet not as a flow (in full appreciation for quotation marks :tongue:.) I am appreciative of the flow of being, and thus reference it as "the ground of being"...

But "the ground of being" is not self evident.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (12/04/09 08:52 AM)

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11582539 -

I don't tell anyone they are hell bound...but since I was given a warning for disputing evolution I apollogize but I can't discuss this further...since you can only think one way here or you will be banned...you have obviously never read the "other religious texts" or you wouldn't even say that...there is none even remotely as complete, dealing with every aspect of life...I am about salvation through faith and not rules so I don't push anything on anyone...follow my sig, several of the writeups are posted there as well as 200+ quotes from non-Christian scientists claiming evolution as a whole is a fairy tale for adults...with no scientific proof whatsoever...but plenty to the contrary...


--------------------
aka NHMI

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. *DELETED* [Re: rizingfire]
    #11582549 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11582563 -

Dewd, if you want to understand you have to follow his sig; otherwise known as the Maze of Ignorance.


--------------------

Edited by OrgoneConclusion (12/04/09 09:05 AM)

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: rizingfire]
    #11582574 -

Quote:
I don't tell anyone they are hell bound...



Then you are not doing your job as a proper Christian. :nonono:


--------------------

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: rizingfire]
    #11582667 -

but since I was given a warning for disputing evolution I apollogize but I can't discuss this further...since you can only think one way here or you will be banned...

Yeah I'm sure that's how it all went down.:tongue:

Yet you continue after this statement to dispute evolution and you are not banned. How interesting.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: Icelander]
    #11582703 -

FACETIOUSNESS ALERT!



"Yeah I'm sure that's how it all went down."



AH-OOGHA!  AH-OOGHA!


--------------------

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11582808 -

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21298826/Derrida-on-Animals

Found the essay I previously mentioned for anyone interested or looking to actually stay on topic.

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11582955 -

On topic? That would be precedent-setting!


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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11583170 -

I don't suggest incomprehensiveness as broad and specific...  And the circular nature of the graph is just the format they chose.  At first glance, it's provocative, but it's just the same thing looked upon at a different angle.  Anyway, I guess that depends on what level you're processing my thoughts. So lets clear some stuff up before we move on.

Ok, first of all, your pictures are old.  We need to understand that they were made at a time when science had nearly nothing but dissections through observation.  Secondly and somewhat still firstly, your pictures are morphologically based.  It's not until the mid 1900's that we start looking into the genome of different animals and understanding different species through the genes they have.  Lastly, my graph represent genes within species. In that a species will have a certain genotype that's signature to it.  I think this is way more accurate because it's based on the genes that developed the physical and behavioral characteristics we see  ...I'll continue this last thought towards the bottom... Continuing clearing up our misunderstandings.

So, I don't want to answer this question until you bring me up to speed with something about yourself.

Don't take this the wrong way, but where are you coming from?  What is your background?  If I knew that then I could probably answer you in a way that wouldn't defeat the purpose of another lengthy post.

For me, I'm Zoology student, who works in a lab studying environmental contaminants and I'm very Tao minded(whatever that means). (an overly general description will be fine but gimmie something to work with)  I think the way the organisms of the world are shaped is based on the environment they're within.  Epigenetics is the field/science where the organism genotype(which will express the phenotype) is pliable based on the environment they're in.  Whether we grow up in the womb or outside the womb, we've received environmental cues from the beginning of time.  Some of us may not recognize them, but they're definitely there.  There's "critical periods in development" where the "programming" of our gene expression or endocrine system occurs.  If we're exposed to compounds during these periods then we can permanently reprogram the fate of different genes being expressed.  This has implications for many diseases and disorders.  For example DES daughters are predisposed to developing a rare vaginal cancer in their late 20's.  For further exemplification, DDT, the pesticide that's banned everywhere except in South Africa, mimics estrogen hormones.  It will activate the estrogen receptors in our bodies and induce estrogenic actions.  In alligators, whom have temperature to determine their sex, if incubating at a temp that's supposed to give MALES and given a high enough dose of DDT(which isn't that high to begin with) then this temp sex determination can be overridden and a female pathways of development will be chosen.

  In my field and with what I do, one of the things we look at is gene expression as a biomarker for endocrine disruption.

Different genes that are expressed at different times in development have certain actions on the body.  Whether behavioral, morphological, or both.


OK, why I believe the graph I pose is better than yours.  Because there could be a different array of genes expressed and could classify something thought of as ONE species, could in fact be two or more.  Different genes could mean different attributes are expressed.  Attributes that aren't easily observed by the naked eye, like species specific sperm.  So, what's to say that the phylogenetic trees you pose aren't actually more elaborate(like mine)?  We could base a long ass thread on this.  And I wouldn't mind, it'd be a nice exercise for all of us, though timely.

So, I hope that explains where I'm coming from, otherwise I have many more examples but I really need to study, so if I don't respond right away, sorry.  Like the doctor said to the short client, "be a little patient."  :wink:

That was way longer than I expected.  But I look forward to your response.  If there's anything unclear, let me know because communicating this stuff is something I'm trying to get better at. (directed toward all)


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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