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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11548208 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11548224 -

That's why I'm eating my cake right now.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11548358 -

The question to me is, what is the rhetorical weight of evolution when we consider it "evident"? How do we reconcile evolution with the contrivance of its language?

So long as we propose its evidence; correct me if I am wrong, but do we not also propose an ontological distinction that is paradoxical to evolution? When the evidence of geneaology is confused with evolution, we glean a humanism in the process.

humanistic--->nationalistic--->political---->familial---> individualistic

when evolution is so certain as its genealogy, like foucault, we are forced to choose allegiance somewhere along its spectrum.

The point I am trying to arrive at is that the current understanding of "evidence" is what is flawed, not evolution. I am open to the possibility of speaking about evolution without subjectivity to it (evolution). But to do this, we need to dig out Cartesian subjectivity from its stronghold in epistemology, and reconsider the scientific method.

Edited by daytripper23 (11/29/09 12:34 PM)

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11548365 -

:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: Icelander]
    #11548382 -

What?

I thought that was pretty solid.

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11548694 -

I'm sure you did but I couldn't make heads or tails out of it.

I laugh because of all those words that most won't understand here.

Maybe you just like to obfuscate.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: Icelander]
    #11548756 -

Ok, that was a bit reactionary, but I fixed it.

I have a history of reading Sartre's humanisms, and he somehow fell into the mix, when I meant to deal with "humanism" synthetically. I do have my practical opinions toward what he calls "bad faith" as I see it, but what I am fundamentally critiquing is the prepackaged humanism that seems to "come with" evolution. The order, or interval is off. This includes preconceptions from the "rational animal" to cartesian subjectivity.

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: rizingfire]
    #11548868 -

I apologize from the start!  To deny evolution, is just ignorant! The Molecular Clock alone is proof enough that evolution exists!  Next you are going to say the Earth is only 12,000 years old!  The only thing your life is "proof" of, is evolution.:peace:

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11548901 -

daytripper23 said:
Ok, that was a bit reactionary, but I fixed it.

I have a history of reading Sartre's humanisms, and he somehow fell into the mix, when I meant to deal with "humanism" synthetically. I do have my practical opinions toward what he calls "bad faith" as I see it, but what I am fundamentally critiquing is the prepackaged humanism that seems to "come with" evolution. The order, or interval is off. This includes preconceptions from the "rational animal" to cartesian subjectivity.


Huh, this is your idea of clarity?

Here's a test of your intelligence. Can you say it in a way that 80% of the folk here could understand you?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11549219 -

Most people don't know what I am talking about, but I'd say the real problem was actually my timing.

I was waiting for the correct moment to respond to Lakefingers who seemed to follow me, but I ended up jumping in at the wrong time, falling into a polarized discussion I meant to avoid. If we are just talking about words and their explication though, the only problem is the questioning attitude to evolution I am suggesting, must indeed lay outside what we can "know", and unfortunately this notion underlies the creation vs evolution debate.

But, as the last few posts are definitely a problem of timing.

As I clarified what I thought you were laughing at (it was reactionary; maybe that was more to Lakefingers), you inserted your reply, that indicated this was not what you are laughing at. And now I see you inserted another response to the clarification that was already out of sync.

OK... :lol:

Human "Intervals" in general are very important to what I am trying to say btw, but put that aside for now.

Here is a small bit on what I am generally trying to describe in this thread. (Derrida)



Derrida is also often accused of dressing his words:

from his address The Animal that Therefore I am:

Quote:
To begin with, I would like to entrust myself to words that, were it possible, would be naked. Naked in the first place - but this is in order to announce already that I plan to speak endlessly of nudity and of the nude in philosophy. Starting from Genesis. I would like to choose words that are, to begin with, naked, quite simply, words from the heart. And to utter these words without repeating myself, without beginning again what I have already said here, more than once. It is said that one must avoid repeating oneself, but in order not to give the appearance of training [dressage], already of a habit or a convention that would in the long term program the very act of thanking.


So here I will arbitrarily establish an interval in the discussion. I want to share more from this essay though; or at least my thoughts on it. I'll be back.

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11549239 -

Never mind.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: Icelander]
    #11549483 -

In my college courses Evolution is taught as biologies ultimate bottom line explanation as to why. I beleive in Evolution, but that means relatively nothing to me, one thing I heard Joe Rogan joke about was the fact that we know just as much about the world around us as anyone that ever lived.  Now I think it is fair to say that no creature, no life form can ever survive the infinite amount of time our universe will potentially become. Therefor Evolution really has no point, it proves that we change, and "change", is just something coined by man because he is smart enough to understand the abstract universe in itself.

Its why I love animals and insects, because I realize that the same life force, the same process of birth and existing has happened for me. If you think about your parents giving birth to you, they call you their child, they have a biological instinct to protect you, but really you are just a copy of those two molecular structures existing in a physical reality the same as any and all animals. Now think of Human beings all the way back to our most basic forms coming from the ocean, it was important for my Evolutionary tree to work so well because I am human and I have made it, or so I think.  We all came from one point, we are all the same life force changing throughout time wanting to exist in reality for one second. Think about 2 seconds ago, now 2 seconds before then all the way back to my caveman ancestors hunting, an eternal present.  in this illusion of time we may think we are not one, we may think we have Evolved and are different from every animal or plant around us, but in the Eternity that the universe is we are existing within God simultaneously at all times with everything.

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. *DELETED* [Re: MindGorilla]
    #11549898 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: MindGorilla]
    #11550207 -




So that's what this is all about. God.:lol:


Therefor Evolution really has no point, it proves that we change, and "change", is just something coined by man because he is smart enough to understand the abstract universe in itself.

It's something folk noticed from the study of the life you love so much. Little mutations moving things along.

But of course it's all one thing. Energy! Energy in all it's playful or violent forms depending on how you want to look at it.

You don't like it that life, in which I include all material manifestation, may have no inherent meaning. Just something happening with no first cause or end.

Yeah that's a hard pill to swallow for most but there is no evidence against it so far. Just peoples hopes and dreams, or gods, or anxieties of being "unimportant" and temporary.

You mentioned your life span is very short. Now the questions you crave to answer haven't been done so by anyone before you as far as we know. So what else can you think to do with your one second of light?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/29/09 04:31 PM)

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11550651 -

Quote:
Purpose is but the slave to memory,
Of violent birth, but poor validity,
Which now, like fruit unripe, sticks on the tree,
But fall, unshaken, when they mellow be.
Most necessary ’tis that we forget
To pay ourselves what to ourselves is debt.
What to ourselves in passion we propose,
The passion ending, doth the purpose lose.



Lakefingers; how can we consider Descartes' deferral of the question of being, as some kind of revelation of evidence?

Many times he says that he can doubt. Isn't it strange though that he does not specify being as what it is he really doubts, so to directly correspond with what he later manifests?

He specifies many things to doubt, but never being. "Later", when he is "remembering" the very fact that he doubts, is it not the generality of being that assuredly underlies his doubts that he gleans for himself?

For him to actually manifest evidence of being, wouldn't he have to doubt being, to establish being?

I doubt being, therefore I am being, that's what we end up translating from Descartes stylistic decisions.

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11550770 -

So basically, I am saying that Descartes' formulation is set up as if we have merely forgotten, and may now remember being.

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: Icelander]
    #11552116 -

Icelander said:
So that's what this is all about. God.:lol:



You don't like it that life, in which I include all material manifestation, may have no inherent meaning. Just something happening with no first cause or end.

Yeah that's a hard pill to swallow for most but there is no evidence against it so far. Just peoples hopes and dreams, or gods, or anxieties of being "unimportant" and temporary.

You mentioned your life span is very short. Now the questions you crave to answer haven't been done so by anyone before you as far as we know. So what else can you think to do with your one second of light?



The universe is God, the reason why I exist, the ultimate reason why I am here. The way the flu can not exist without me, I can not exist without God and its purpose whatever that may be. In my belief of God I don't necessarily think I have a purpose or really care, but I am something rather than nothing. Like I said I beleive in Evolution which i beleive has no point, I really have no point if I look at it in scientific terms. But my life is not determined by what scientist say or think. Because the only truth i can know is subjective.



Actually I agree with you. I beleive the universe has no beginning or end, forever into an infinity of past and future. But you are the misguided who thinks it has no meaning.  Human beings made up the word "meaning" my friend, you can beleive that you have no affect, your life has no meaning, but in reality you affect the infinity that the future will become. And it was not your choice whether or not you exist. You are part of order in all this chaos,  you are affecting the world in every single action you make. Don't think that just because you understand the creation you are smarter than the creator.


Now where you become wrong again is this idea that we are temporary. The only problem is I don't beleive we are temporary. Like I said, I exist within God, within this universe which is Eternal, a creation by an Infinite being. I dont forget that I was once every animal before me, like I said my whole evolution of life before me is just as important as am I am now.


Existing and living is the only thing any being can understand. Death has no relevance to life because you are conscious of living. You can never understand what it is to be dead, you can only understand living in this now which is like you said, never ending.


You see that God created the Universe, because God is eternal, infinite. The universe is not infinite, it  just goes on forever into infinity, it is NOT complete. The tough pill to swallow is the idea that something can be outside the realm of existing.

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: MindGorilla]
    #11552161 -

Corny post.

But you are the misguided who thinks it has no meaning.

But of course you know.Then of course you say everything is subjective.

Fuck your silly notions of god.

I love it how people who are finite and admit to being subjective seem to know exactly who and what god is.:crazy2:

Corny.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: rizingfire]
    #11552557 -

Some good shit in here... not sure I have much to add except... cool............

rizingfire said:
Evolution is a fairy tale for adults who want to deny the existence of God in an attempt to remove all ideas of consequence of actions, as if you aren't found guilty of breaking the law even if you didn't know it.

As for the comment on the Bible I don't get what you are saying. The Bible is the only book of it's kind that is filled with profound knowledge that dictates how to handle every aspect of your life....My life is proof of it's truthfulness and the blessings are part of the reward...I always considered myself too intelligent to believe in evolution...there are only 3,000 scientifically proven facts disproving and negating Darwins theory alltogether...funny we never hear about it thanks to the lying liberal media...


this made my heart warm :heart:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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Re: Deconstructing evolution. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11552862 -

daytripper23 said:
there is a recognition that genealogy seems to be all we have in the way of actual evidence.


On first glance this is a tautology; what's the alternative? Gene flow from offspring to parent?

I guess it depends on your definition of genealogy. For example, you can examine the genes of several organisms and, knowing nothing of their genealogy, deduce their familial relationships based on the gene sequences you find. I guess you can say that this is based on certain assumptions about inheritance (and call that 'genealogy') but these assumptions are never violated! To me this sounds like arguing that gravity is a flimsy notion based on the mere fact that what goes up always comes down.

But it also doesn't address the instances where evolution has nothing to do with genealogy, such as bacteria being transformed by environmental DNA and gaining a competitive advantage. I'm quite aware that this is a relatively rare event in natural environments but it seems like a good answer to what you're saying.


--------------------
BEST TEAM IN THE UNIVERSE

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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