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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10068058 -

Quote:
Once a paradigm shift is complete, a scientist cannot, for example, posit the possibility that miasma causes disease or that ether carries light.



Sure they can. But why would you posit something that's been proven wrong?


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10068111 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
That's one reason I am excited to read it.



Because it confirms your bias against evolution?



No, because, as I said earlier, it is an atheist and an evolutionist speaking out against evolution as a science.  I think evolution and natural selection are scientifically verifiable to a degree.  I'm just not sure how much explanatory power they have.  It's quite possible that Ruse is, again, full of hot air.  However I won't know that until I've read the book.


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Edited by Mr. Mushrooms (03/29/09 05:00 PM)

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: zouden]
    #10068146 -

zouden said:
Quote:
Once a paradigm shift is complete, a scientist cannot, for example, posit the possibility that miasma causes disease or that ether carries light.



Sure they can. But why would you posit something that's been proven wrong?



That quote comes from a Wiki article.  I was posting a reference.  Evidently, you disagree with Kuhn.


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10071020 -

I often see opponents of "science" post pop sci explanation or news as evidence of the failings.


Newsflash: Time magazine is not science


And yes psychology is a mess of garbage as far as the conclusions, in many cases, so what?



You are arguing that cuz people make mistakes that science must be poor.


Confirmation bias is easy to identify, usually, in  a given experiment , and your example wasn't even a serious scientific paper so far as i can see.


It is quite obvious that the procedure of asking a gorilla something and then subjectivly explaining the response is a poor methodology, so what?


It just seems like instead of low hanging fruit, your digging up carrots fromt eh ground.  While an easy target, its not a fruit at all, and neither is time magazine science.

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: johnm214]
    #10071561 -

If confirmation bias was easy to detect, neither Kuhn's, Popper's or Ruse's books would have been necessary.

I was a scientist a long time before I became a philosopher.  I love science; I just realize its limitations.


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10071605 -

Yes, science is limited to what we observe.  Only philosophers make shit up :thumbup:




In all seriousness, because someone interviewed in a magazine gave her own thoughts on the meaning of a gorilla's movements your criticizing science.  Seriously?  You think scientists  do experiments to determine who the best wife is?

Not everything a scientist does need be science, and unless that person was claiming that she was doing science in that interview, then it seems irrelevant.



And honestly I don't see science and proper philosophy as being very different.  While philosophical theories aren't generally testable as easy, that's why they are usually premised upon assumptions.  I don't think there's an inherent conflict.

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: johnm214]
    #10071618 -

johnm214 said:
Yes, science is limited to what we observe.



Can you observe the subjective realm of another person's consciousness?

You can only observe the behavior of other people.

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Zanthius]
    #10071654 -

Right, which is why I said psychology often perpetuates mischief in the "conclusions" section.  These are the things that get parroted uncritically by the media or public.


But this is not a limitation of science, its a limitation of the universe.  If you don't have knowledge you can't make informed decisions.  Not too profound.

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Lakefingers]
    #10071659 -

Quote:
On a related note, I never understood why it can't be more accepted that both ID and evolution could be possible. Why could we have not simply been created to evolve?



That's what Mr. Ruse is saying. "Both of these groups think that to accept one belief, they must reject the other," Ruse said. Basically, there is no scientific basis for intelligent design and evolution being competitive. There are no scientific findings, at least in their purest state (think fossil records and the like), that require scientists to make a statement for or against intelligent design in intepreting them. Simply, a fossil is X amount of years old and can resemble the fossils of other species in Y ways. That's all there is to say about it scientifically. He blames Thomas Huxley and others for using these findings to form a philosophical argument against religion, which has now become part of the popular evolutionary dogma.

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: iamconfused]
    #10071725 -

You sound like you've read his work.  Have you?  What were the good points and bad points?


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10071771 -

No, I didn't read any of his works. I just very carefully read the linked article, because whoever wrote it did a very poor job. [ha, I like the word "very", huh?] They didn't get Ruse's points across very clearly. I'm going to school to be a journalist so I look at these things with a keen eye. You wouldn't believe how bad most journalists are, but that's a topic for another day.

Edited by iamconfused (03/30/09 01:35 AM)

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: iamconfused]
    #10071783 -

:thumbup:


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10071910 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
zouden said:
Quote:
Once a paradigm shift is complete, a scientist cannot, for example, posit the possibility that miasma causes disease or that ether carries light.



Sure they can. But why would you posit something that's been proven wrong?



That quote comes from a Wiki article.  I was posting a reference.  Evidently, you disagree with Kuhn.



If that quote is indicative of his reasoning then yes, I disagree with him. His argument is rubbish. I'm sure that's not his best work.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: zouden]
    #10071938 -

:grin: Sadly zouden, that is supposed to be his best work.  This book I'm getting by Ruse (again I'll mention he's an atheist and an evolutionist) takes Kuhn to task.  I always liked Kuhn but I never bought his work as 100% accurate.  I really think Ruse's book will be very interesting.

If you didn't know, Michael (Ruse) and Dawkins really got into an Internet squabble and lately Ruse has been publishing with Dembski.  You can imagine how that got under Dawkins' skin.

I can't wait for it to get here.


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10120916 -

The book came; I've been reading it.  So far it seems ok but I won't know anything until later.

Just sharing a quote out of context for now:

Quote:
Next comes Charles Darwin, father of evolutionary theory and a real neurotic if ever there was one.  Not that we should be surprised since,  coming as he did from the comfortable rich upper-middle classes, in proposing a theory of common origins Darwin was threatening the very foundations and stability of the social hierarchy which supported and nourished him.  Little wonder that reaction to On the Origin of Species was purely political and that those who really reveled in its message were the rank atheists.  Fortunately, whatever his failings as a man of science--and they were legion--in other respects Darwin was a man of resource, and so by the time that he published his work on our own species (The Descent of Man) the beast had been tamed.



Don't feel bad, atheistic materialists, before he castigates Darwin he had his way with Newton.  The point being that scientists are just men and men make mistakes.  His focus was the gravity of the mistakes.  And this, coming from an evolutionist.  For that is exactly what Michael Ruse is.

I get the feeling this book is going to be quite the ride.  :lol:

:hatsoff:


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10120930 -

>Little wonder that reaction to On the Origin of Species was purely political

I find that pretty hard to believe. It caused quite a stir in the scientific community.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: zouden]
    #10121119 -

Well, that's the party line we were taught, however Desmond and Moore's Darwin: The Life of a Tormented Evolutionist gives us a different focus.  A review from Library Journal is revealing:

Quote:
In 44 chapters with copious notes and massive details, Darwin scholars Desmond and Moore give a rich portrait of the gentleman naturalist and scientific theorist from a sociocultural framework emphasizing Whig-Tory conflicts and Lyellian-Malthusian speculations.

The authors reveal that Darwin was particularly influenced by the evolutionary ideas of zoologist Robert Grant; the implications of fossil Argentine megatheriums, speciated Galapagos mockingbirds, and the incredible varieties of barnacles; as well as experimentation with cultivated plants and animals. Despite a doting wife, loyal friends, and belated honors (though he was never knighted), Darwin's life was filled with illness, disappointment, and tragedy (especially the death of daughter Annie at age ten). This impressive volume makes clear that Darwin suffered from a lifelong schizoid struggle between his own materialist science and a late-Victorian theology. For a deeper examination of Darwin's sickness, read John Bowlby's Charles Darwin ( LJ 3/1/91) and Ralph Colp's To Be an Invalid ( LJ 6/1/77). Darwin's final written thoughts on religion are found in Nora Barlow's indispensable The Autobiography of Charles Darwin (1959). Essential reading for evolutionists, Desmond and Moore's monumental work is highly recommended for all academic libraries. BOMC, History Book Club, and Quality Paperback Book Club alternate selections.



It might be interesting to pick up a copy.


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10121127 -

in a different thread i was just seriously asked why monkeys sill exist if we came from them.....:rofl2:

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10121287 -

But that's a modern analysis, not a contemporary account.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: zouden]
    #10121329 -

Well, obviously, his idea came from somewhere, and he is a degreed Phd as well as being better versed in this field than you or I.  Of course, it's a modern analysis, as is the idea that Darwin's opposition came only from scientists.

And how do you know the book doesn't contain contemporary accounts?

:shrug:


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