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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno
    #2438647 - 03/16/04 11:36 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)



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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: THE TWISTED REALMS OF EVOLUTION AND CREATION [Re: ]
    #2438896 - 03/16/04 12:55 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The two main possibilities I prefer to entertain, with all the above evidence (and lack thereof);
1)Punctuated Equilibrium.
If you're familiar with the concept that a Butterfly's wings flapping in Hawaii can cause thunderstorms in India; then you can see it's not too unplausible that an equivalent small change in evolutionary processes can have tremendous effects.
Say, for example a certain mutation that was triggered by a certain set of combined environmental factors caused the effect of a "mutated ape", so if this WERE the case, then it's also just as plausible that there could've been a sudden burst of numerous 'mutated apes', maybe even just a handful...which would increase the chances of that particular breed procreating and then so forth. But, there's still alot of potential holes in this theory as is...But again, with the lack of evidence stating otherwise, it's certainly a plausible possibility.

2)The forces and roles of a higher existence or power.
The one particular facet discussed in the above essay that causes me to lean towards entertaining this possibility more than any other; as said above "It is hard to accept the evolution of the human eye as a product of chance; it is even harder to accept the evolution of human intelligence as the product of random disruptions in the brain cells of our ancestors."
Agreed, the fact that it's extremely unlikely chance just randomly spurted out perfectly designed organs and viscera that just happens to serve us perfectly for survival reasons; seems to point towards a higher-force at play here. Some people call it "Mother Nature". Some people say it is God. Some people may go on to speculate it has to do with Aliens, interdimensional-entities, The Illuminati, and so on.
Whatever the case, it's extremely hard to ignore. Another excerpt from your essay: "Scientists have no proof that life was not the result of an act of creation."
Yet, another point which broadens the horizon of possiblity that fosters the notion of a higher-power, playing a role in the massive celestial dance of the Universe and life as we know it on this planet of quadrillions...




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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2439270 - 03/16/04 02:34 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)



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Offlinedjd586
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Re: THE TWISTED REALMS OF EVOLUTION AND CREATION [Re: ]
    #2439340 - 03/16/04 02:54 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I argured many times pro evolution in the shroomery. For me, it's almost like defending my religion. I spent the last 7 years of my life immersed in the theory. I'm studied it, I've applied it in research, I attained a Masters Degree in it. I know the theory has it's strong points and I know it also has many weak links. But, evolution isn't some theory that is set in stone. That's why its a theory and not a law. Think of evolution more of a work in progress. There are still many wrinkles that need to be ironed out before we really have a true concept of evolution. Like I said, I work with the concept on almost a daily basis, but I consider myself far from being an expert on the subject. If you really tried to study the theory of evolution you would be overwhelmed. Darwin was just the beginging of the theory, we have come so much farther then when he first introduced it.


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Offlinekushlover
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Re: THE TWISTED REALMS OF EVOLUTION AND CREATION PT: 1 [Re: ]
    #2439657 - 03/16/04 04:13 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bloodflower6 said:
On the other hand, what about creation as an explanation for how life got here? Does it offer a framework for the evidence that is any more sound than the assertions that often underpin evolution? And, as the best-known creation account, does Genesis shed any credible light on how the earth and living things got here?




To this I must answer no. Creation does not offer a "more sound" explanation for how life got here. The fact is that how life (and intelligent life) came to be has as of yet not been fully answered. But for me, any credible answer must be supported by solid evidence and logic. Creation stories offer a quick and easy answer to this nagging question, but strickly on faith/belief and offer no evidence or proof. They therefore are only credible to those who take them at face value without any proof or evidence. If this is the only way the question of life can be answered than pick your story to be believed:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_denom.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_beliefs

And what makes one belief more true than the others?
For me the only true answer must follow logic and have supporting evidence. And I'm not saying that evolution is the answer, but I feel the answer must be reachable through science. For it is the basis of science, logic, that raises the question in the first place.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: THE TWISTED REALMS OF EVOLUTION AND CREATION [Re: ]
    #2439768 - 03/16/04 04:35 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

There is another difficulty facing the theory of evolution. Just how is it supposed to have happened? What is a basic mechanism that is presumed to have enabled one type of living thing to evolve into another type?

After reading the rest of the essay, I return to the above mystery..

It's obvious nobody truly knows with any validation. But of course we can speculate till the cows go home...The second essay simply furthers my affinity for the second possibility I listed in my first post. :wink:

Also, I want to point out, in the following statement:
What about the fruit fly experiments? Few mutation experiments can equal the extensive ones conducted on the common fruit fly, Drosophila melanogaster. Since the early 1900's, scientists have exposed millions of these flies to X rays. This increased the frequency of mutations to more than a hundred times what was normal.
I'm not an expert in Radiology or science relating to radiation and xrays and so on, but I think something to consider is that perhaps different types of radiation produces different types of results, or mutations and so on. Just a thought...

Now, I want to know what YOU, BloodyFlowerSix, take out of all this. :grin:



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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2439804 - 03/16/04 04:41 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)



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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: THE TWISTED REALMS OF EVOLUTION AND CREATION [Re: ]
    #2439863 - 03/16/04 04:51 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I was hoping I'd see some of your ideas or speculations as to what you feel would most likely fill those gaps in Evolutionary theory...at least aside, from God.

:grin:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: THE TWISTED REALMS OF EVOLUTION AND CREATION [Re: ]
    #2446831 - 03/18/04 01:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Skorpivo linked me to this thread from another thread, so I figured I'd add my .02

I've heard the argument before about how most mutations are negative, but this argument seems to overlook the fact that evolution is a process which takes millions of years. Even if only 1 out of every 1000 mutations that occured was positive, that still makes 1000 positive mutations. And remember that according to Natural Selection, the ones with positive mutations should be more likely to survive and reproduce, thus passing on their positive genes.

I would also like to point out that all your posts in this thread do not call into question evolution itself, but rather Darwinism--the theory of evolution by natural selection. In other words, it doesn't raise doubts about the fact that evolution occurs, but rather how it occurs.


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: silversoul7]
    #2446861 - 03/18/04 01:20 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: THE TWISTED REALMS OF EVOLUTION AND CREATION [Re: ]
    #2446922 - 03/18/04 01:41 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

It looks like you and I are using different definitions of evolution.

Evolution: A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form

By this definition, evolution would not necessarily require mutation in order to occur.

Quote:

IMO adaptation is possible. How could it not be? We and every other living thing has to adapt to survive. Evolution is something turning into a totally other species. As of yet there is no proof in any way that evolution is possible. That was alot of my point. I'm not saying it isn't, I'm just saying there is not one shred of proof that any living being has or ever will change into something else.



It has been shown that species change over time. Since it's a slow, gradual process, it's very difficult to pinpoint the exact moment when something changes into a new species. It's not like you can just say, "Ok, this guy was the first homo sapien and his parents were homo erectus." It doesn't work like that. It's a bunch of subtle changes over millions of years that add up over time until you eventually have what you could call a new species. Those who deny evolution seem to forget the timeframe we're talking about. Millions of subtle changes over millions of years can eventually add up to a new species, but you can't go along the timeline and point out an exact point at which you could say it's a new species.

And while it's true there isn't any proof that evolution is possible(since that would mean absolute certainty, which doesn't exist in science), there is plenty of hard evidence of species changing over time. Those that say it's not proof of a species changing into a new species are thinking in a pluralistic mindset in which everything must be categorized, and nature doesn't work quite like that.

Quote:

SS7 Said: "Even if only 1 out of every 1000 mutations that occured was positive, that still makes 1000 positive mutations."

Forgive me but I'm confused by this statement. If your considering the mutations as the positive then yes, things have been succesfully mutated. Mutated for the better though? No.



Frankly, I'm confused by your statement here. But you don't think a mutation could be beneficial? What about opposable thumbs? Or the ability to walk upright? Also, not all mutations have to be radical changes. There are some mutations that you wouldn't recognize as mutations because they're so subtle, but they add up over time.

For example, take one of the giraffe's ancestors. Some of them may have had slightly longer necks than the rest. It would have probably been very subtle, but then those with longer necks would have the advantage of being able to reach further up in the trees, and thus have an advantage over the others. Then they'd be more likely to survive and reproduce, thus passing on their genes so that the next generation has their long necks. Repeat this over a couple million years, and you'd have giraffes as they exist today.


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Invisiblebert
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Re: THE TWISTED REALMS OF EVOLUTION AND CREATION [Re: silversoul7]
    #2447717 - 03/18/04 05:16 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

First of all there are no 'neutral' mutations. Neither are there 'positive' or 'negative' mutations. A negative mutation for one environment may promote survival in another environment. Even if there are thousands of 'negative' mutations, that just means those organisms are dying off in favor of others who may be receiving less negative but still not seemingly positive mutations. Some mutations are only conducive for survival in light of other simultaneously occurring mutations which in turn may only be beneficial in a certain environment. There's an infinite amount of combinations for gene mutations to interact, that's probably one reason why people can't fathom it.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: THE TWISTED REALMS OF EVOLUTION AND CREATION [Re: bert]
    #2447795 - 03/18/04 05:30 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for clearing that up. When I mention "positive" and "negative" mutations, I'm only referring to how benefitial or detrimental they are to survival in one's environment.


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