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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Discussion of the infinite
    #9510191 -

I wrote this a couple of years ago the morning after a particularly awkward trip, I went to a friends house where a couple kids were jamming, and a ton of straight edge kids from high school showed up, and I was too far gone to have any "normal' conversation, the night ended in a talk about infinity and what that meant about the possibilities of miracles. Here is the essay, I only edited out the end where I trailed off as my friend woke up and we continued the conversation.

Our universe began as a singularity in time and space, the four dimensions that we as humans can readily conceive. from this one singularity, somehow it exploded outward, and on its own began to create, matter does not come out of nothingness but instead as created out of the energy of this singularity. Time itself must be infinite, because the universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate. The universe can not become simpler because the laws of entropy do not allow a system to naturally do so. Entropy is not just the disorder and the energy of space but also the amount of information that it takes to describe a system. Because the system is always expanding time must be infinite. The three spacial dimensions that we live in on the other hand cannot be truly infinite by the same principal that the universe is expanding. There are two types of infinite, countably infinite, and uncountably infinite, while uncountably infinite, can contain more breadth, in its infinity, there is now way that a countably infinite set can increase into an uncountably infinite set, with out the addition of the uncountably infinite set to the countably infinite set. This would not be an increase over a period of time, but instead an immediate jump. This means that if our 3-d universe in expanding over time, then space-ally it cannot be infinite.
Some physicists believe that the universe splits at every point where there is a possibility of different outcomes. While matter is finite (and energy by the equation e=MC^2), There are an infinite number of outcomes to any situation. Because matter is a wave of the probability of its position there are an infinite number of places that matter can be in any of the infinite number of place along its position wave. And while the energy released from any interaction is finite (without infinite energy and matter it is impossible to create infinite energy because the number of particles any particle can directly interact with the finite, and no one particle has infinite mass or energy) The number of universes created is infinite because of the infinite number of positions that any one particle can be in. However  having an infinite number of universes does not necessarily mean that all the universes contain every imaginable outcome just every possible outcome. Just like the set of odd numbers is finite, yet does not contain even numbers and the fact that there are an infinite number of numbers between 0 and 1, yet is only a tiny fraction of the whole.
Another theory at the forefront of physics is M-theory which combines the two differing string theory models into a single unified theory. In M-theory our universe is a multi-dimensional brain in the 11th dimension. M-theory also suggests that there is more than one brain, each of which can consist of a different number of dimensions. While there is no way of knowing whether there are an infinite number of brains or not. For the number of brains to be infinite there must either have alway been an infinite number of brains or and infinite amount of energy (which is the same due to e=MC^2). While this is highly likely it is impossible to prove using the knowledge that we know today. Also even if there are an infinite number of universes
Another thought to be taken account of is that there must also be infinite energy if the universe  is infinite because of the background energy of vacuum energy or dark energy.

A little background about myself, I'm a physics major and math minor so I'm not making any of this up just trying to explain infinity in our universe

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: gento]
    #9511178 -

The three spacial dimensions that we live in on the other hand cannot be truly infinite by the same principal that the universe is expanding.

We are assuming there is nothing outside of our universe? Could the universe not be inside something larger? Rather, what leads you to think otherwise?


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Let's get the fuck out of here.

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: Bernackums]
    #9511556 -

Im not sure about discussing infinity itself, i enjoy discussing how to recognize infinity as who you are, but once its recognized its gone beyond conceptualization

Infinity as a concept is nice, but only because it destroys all other concepts, its the concept that destroys itself because infinity can not be held in any finite mental concept

As far as concepts go its a wonderful concept :thumbup:


:peace:


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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: gento]
    #9512039 -

Descartes said the speed of light was infinite… he was wrong. Perhaps he would BE less wrong if he said near infinity; whether is countable or non countable.

Edited by Recondicom (12/29/08 12:33 PM)

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: Recondicom]
    #9512128 -

Thats a trippy thing about infinity... you can never be near it, nor can you be further from it.  A quantity of '1' is just as far from infinity as '100' or '1*10^1000', they are all the same distance away from infinity.

Infinity is just an abstraction humans use to cope with our perception and ideas.  First invented for use in describing religious/spiritual ideas it was later adopted and formalized to describe scientific phenomenon.

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: DieCommie]
    #9512178 -

Trippy like an equation towards infinity.  Anywhere in the equation is near infinity.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: Recondicom]
    #9512272 -

I like to propose near as countable and far as uncountable


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: gento]
    #9514226 -

Discussions of infinity alway remind me of Zeno's dichotomy and arrow paradoxes. Recondicom, You should look this up if you haven't already.

This coupled with some physical theory (though i can't claim to know much about it), makes even finite things confusing. Do these paradoxes complicate things further for Quantum superposition? How can you frame an instance, let alone give it probability if one struggles to point out a finite point in something infinite. That aside, doesn't quantumn  entanglement complicate probabilities further?

Severely lacking a great description, IMO of singularities, i feel that even the expanded/expanding universe(s) may also be treated as one -  like a singularity for hypothetical sake. It may as well have infinite density if we cannot put a frame around it, especially when its probably impossible to get a real snapshot of consecutive time frames for different objects who due to their velocity in the spatio-temporal level makes their time purely relative. Not to mention identifying a single action within a snapshot that contains an infinite amount of tasks.

If all is one, and infinite, there is some beautiful finite illusion that we observe and (try to) make sense of even though infinity is right under our nose.

If someone can enlighten me, and thus free me of this paradox, it would be greaty appreciated, i'm sure its very flawed when i relate it to physics.


--------------------
All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: Bernackums]
    #9514323 -

Bernackums said:
The three spacial dimensions that we live in on the other hand cannot be truly infinite by the same principal that the universe is expanding.

We are assuming there is nothing outside of our universe? Could the universe not be inside something larger? Rather, what leads you to think otherwise?


It doesn't matter, there could be something outside of our universe, as proposed by M-theory, and parellel universe quantum theory. If one were too try and reach the the end of our universe it would be impossible. If  one were going to travel in a strait line they would never arrive at an "end" instead they would eventually end up back where they started.
And by our universe I mean the space that we as 3-demension creatures are stuck to.
An analogy is if we were 2-d creatures living on the surface of a marble in a bag of marbles, our "universe" would be the surface of 1 marble, and the surfaces of all the other marbles would be other universes.

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: flangenips]
    #9514750 -

flangenips said:
Discussions of infinity alway remind me of Zeno's dichotomy and arrow paradoxes. Recondicom, You should look this up if you haven't already.

This coupled with some physical theory (though i can't claim to know much about it), makes even finite things confusing. Do these paradoxes complicate things further for Quantum superposition? How can you frame an instance, let alone give it probability if one struggles to point out a finite point in something infinite. That aside, doesn't quantumn  entanglement complicate probabilities further?

Severely lacking a great description, IMO of singularities, i feel that even the expanded/expanding universe(s) may also be treated as one -  like a singularity for hypothetical sake. It may as well have infinite density if we cannot put a frame around it, especially when its probably impossible to get a real snapshot of consecutive time frames for different objects who due to their velocity in the spatio-temporal level makes their time purely relative. Not to mention identifying a single action within a snapshot that contains an infinite amount of tasks.

If all is one, and infinite, there is some beautiful finite illusion that we observe and (try to) make sense of even though infinity is right under our nose.

If someone can enlighten me, and thus free me of this paradox, it would be greaty appreciated, i'm sure its very flawed when i relate it to physics.



First I'll try and explain what I know about zeno's paradox. It states that movement itself is impossble because one first has to go half way,  then half of the remaining way, then half of the remaining way... and so on.

Now I think the easiest way to understand this is to look at the math. If a person is going to walk across one room, at a constant speed so it will take them 1 minute. They will first walk 1/2 of the room in 1/2 minute, then walk 1/4 of the room in 1/4 minute, and continue from there
So if one adds all the all the distances they get 1/2+1/4+1/8+1/16+...
and for the times they will get the same series.

It has been proved mathematically (Iknew it at one point, but don't ask me now) that the sum of this series if one carries it out to infinity is 1. Now this is like calculus, the basis of which is that if you that a infentesimal and multiply it by infinity you get a real number, sometimes. A little trippy eh?

Next the quantum mechanics, the quantum wave is a probability wave, the probability of the particle localizing a certain point. Now this quantum probability wave can be applied to everything, from elctrons to, people, to planets, just as the size gets larger, the wavlength gets shorter so there is very little uncertanty or quantum effects on anything on a macroscopic level. However if one continues to expand this idea to space time as whole, that means that there has to be a average space time, (i.e the highest point in the space time wave). For there to be a true average which space time tends towards, there would have to be an infinite number of space times, or universes.

This has been explained by an theory that every time an interaction between to particles happens, the universe splits and so there is one universe that occurs with every possible outcome. An infinite number of universes

It is also possible, if not probable that every I've written so far is bullshit, as quantum mechanics and general relativity are mutual exclusive. Therefore one, the other or both are not entirely correct. Even though experimentally both have been verified.

Its just like everything, the more one learns about a topic the more one learns there is to learn. Or refering back to infinity the farther one goes, they still have to go infinitely far.

Edited by gento (12/30/08 12:13 AM)

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: gento]
    #9515310 -

Please point me in the direction of these ideas, that was a new one for me.


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Let's get the fuck out of here.

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: Bernackums]
    #9515696 -

Bernackums said:
Please point me in the direction of these ideas, that was a new one for me.


I think your talking about the universe splitting theory, it was a theory that was originally published in a paper by Hugh Everet III in 1957. I have to admit that my knowledge of it is not that good. But here is what I've gatheres: It was originally proposed so that wave functions do not have to collapse, and thus does away with wave particle duality (as I understand). It simplifies the wave equation, by making it so that it does not collapse when interact, but just appears to as every possibility is created in a seperate universe, we just observe one of many. Here is a wiki about it, it is a good starting point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: gento]
    #9515776 -

Calculus shows that the sum of an infinite series can be finite.  Think loop.

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: gento]
    #9515899 -

gento said:
It was originally proposed so that wave functions do not have to collapse, and thus does away with wave particle duality (as I understand). It simplifies the wave equation, by making it so that it does not collapse when interact, but just appears to as every possibility is created in a seperate universe, we just observe one of many.


How does the many worlds hypothesis simplify the wave equation?

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: DieCommie]
    #9515962 -

What it does is make it so that the quantum wave does not have to collapse into a particle when interacting with other waves. This essentall simplifies the workings of the wave. I should have specified that it does not simplfy the general equation for the wave: shrodenger equation and what that predicts, but it does simply how a wave would interact with other particles/waves

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: gento]
    #9516002 -

There is no way to experimentally distinguish between the copenhagen interpretation and many worlds hypothesis is there?  I never really looked into many worlds hypothesis.  If it makes the same predictions as copenhagen interpretation, I say why bother?  But Im boring like that...  :tongue:

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: DieCommie]
    #9516084 -

Yea, all that stuff is esstentially impossible to prove. I don't really know if I believe it. I guess it comes down to whats more plausable particle-wave duality of splitting univereses?

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: gento]
    #9516219 -

With no possible way to distinguish them, the difference between the two lies solely in our mind.

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: xFrockx]
    #9517139 -

Sort like the infinity symbol.
      Going back to the original post.
      "Our universe began as a singularity in time and space, the four dimensions that we as humans can readily conceive. from this one singularity, somehow it exploded outward, and on its own began to create, matter does not come out of nothingness but instead as created out of the energy of this singularity. Time itself must be infinite,”
      Paradigm shift : If time is Infinite it existed before the singularity. Perhaps time (as a wave) and the Universe  (mass) were two different singularities before the Big Bang.  Just like Lavoisier suggested when he stated that water was a combination of H2 and O2;  Matter and Time in an event Horizon to a pre state and  Big Bang to follow. The Universe as we know rides the Time-Space continium… The laws of which are the mechanics of both singularities. Whether we could exist outside the time-continium wave would be answered by a black hole.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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Re: Discussion of the infinite [Re: Recondicom]
    #9519287 -

if interested, i can suggest a film, God and Buddha: a dialogue, with Deepak Chopra and religion professor Robert Thurman; there is quite a bit of interesting information regarding the true nature of reality, involving the concepts of time and space.

Edited by fruitymel13 (12/30/08 08:27 PM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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