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OfflineCrobih
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The New Model ... I find it interesting- -very
    #422918 - 10/12/01 08:05 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

There is a conceptual theory, I am talking about a lot in a last time, wich is IMO the one wich is the right one.

It says that there is no valid memory as something that is based in your brain in a way it is based in a computer.
Memory is connectning all sorts of concepts. For an example, if you see dragon in a movie you never seen before, from that moment, in your "memory" the dentrites make new connection which connects your concept of dragon with that movie. (OK, movie is not a concept, but all thigs that happened in that movie are concepts that exist in you brain, so they are connected to concept of dragon).

Concepts are acctually not something really where is written dragon in this case, but it is the center from which further connections on dragon start (for exaple...fire...big one....lizzard...fairy tail...etc).

The new concepts are being born every day, and more you know, there is much more concepts for wich the new concept can be connected. So, that is the reason why you can learn much easier the fourth language, the the second one.

Next, the dreams could have the fuction (this is not directly connected to this theoryy, but fits in that theory very, very good....) of connecting or better to say reorganisation of existing concepts.....have you ever learn at night, next day went to exam, and did it much better than you thought you know? It happened to me many times.....

Next, you know that many inventios, ideas where born in the dreaming time...

In this theory random from quantum theory enables us to move further from regular concepts... but that is another story.

And finnaly....when you dream you travel trough your concepts, and connect them in not so regular way.. those concepts lead you to another concepts which make you dream all sorts of weird things.
And those connections are actually your new memories.

Your "real" memory is nothing than connection of conncepts...which are based on linearity...so it makes them be your history (if there was not before and after, you could never know is that your memory, or just a dream..and that is a bunch of the connections on conncepts that fit very nice)...and when you dream you make new connections (and probably new concepts)...which worth to you same as a "real" memory.

On your question about separate memories on dreams and real time, it means that they are not separate, but only that dreams are connected to all sorts on concepts less then in the real world.
And often there are lot of dead ends...wich "keep" that dream far from your "memory".

Sorry for grammar and spelling...if you feel it is imortant please write it properly.
I think that thise theory is the most advanced I ever met and I want it to share with people who are interested in knowledge...not just myth.

Finnaly...this theory can explain many interesting things such as deja vus etc. a way easier than any other. And in informatics it is well known thing that the best programs, and the best hardware are allways the simplest ones.



If you think that Ralph is a cool guy, or even worse, that you support him, than you are an idiot. But from another point of view you are all good people sometimes
~Crobih


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InvisibleDeraj
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Registered: 10/08/01
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Re: The New Model ... I find it interesting- -very [Re: Crobih]
    #422928 - 10/12/01 08:20 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

So... I probably interperted this wrong, but it means that learning is exponential? The more you know about something, the more easily you will be able to take in more knowledge on it? Like a jigsaw puzzle.. the more peices you have, the easier it is to fit the next peice into place... I don't really understand why people have trouble with the "people are nothing but big organic robots" thing.. I mean, that is all we really are.. Anyways I'm getting off the topic here, and It's far to early for my meager brain to post something comprehendable and intelegent so this is what you get. This view is indeed very interesting.. it will be with me for the rest of the day, it'll be interesting to see the responses to this...

Rai-fo shanato


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Rai-fo shanato


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: The New Model ... I find it interesting- -very [Re: Deraj]
    #422935 - 10/12/01 08:39 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You interpreted this right. Anyway, I wrote about this in a 10% post, where one informatic guy made a model of a brain on computer, where he found out that what really matters are not those bits (read neurons) but connections among them.
And it is well known thing that baby when is born has much more neurons than older person, and the fact is thet neurons in the first months of life die pretty rapidly.
The same thing happened with the model from that guy.

I think that this basic principle has many hidden answers. The most important answers are connected with our use of drugs, their beneficial use, and the fact how can people go mad using psychedelics.
There could be even new forum about all implications it has.

If you think that Ralph is a cool guy, or even worse, that you support him, than you are an idiot. But from another point of view you are all good people sometimes
~Crobih


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InvisibleKid
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Re: The New Model ... I find it interesting- -very [Re: Crobih]
    #423354 - 10/12/01 05:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

This sounds a lot like what linguists say about semantitcs.

Semantics, basically, says that words are signifiers. Words signify something, but the somethings that they signify are only ideas of real things. We all have an idea of a frog, and in English we use the letters, f-r-o-g and say "frog" to signify that idea. By using the word "frog" we are also signifying other concepts, such as "reptile", "green skin", etc.

> Concepts are acctually not something really where is written dragon in this case, but it is the center from which further connections on dragon start (for exaple...fire...big one....lizzard...fairy tail...etc).

This is where I start to have problems with this theory (as well as semantics). If neurons (or words) signify ideas, but those only signify other ideas, then there's a whole complete, self-contained system that seems only to signify itself. The only thing that neurons (and words) are doing in this case, is defining other ideas. One idea, or a bunch of ideas make another idea. That new idea, may then be used to make another new idea, or strangely enough, refer back to one of the original ideas.

It makes sense that things, or ideas, in both cases (the dream/neuron theory, and semantics) are only defined by their differences or similarities to other things, though for me it implies that the bottom could just "fall out" and reality break down completely (hence postmodernism, I guess).

> Next, the dreams could have the fuction (this is not directly connected to this theoryy, but fits in that theory very, very good....) of connecting or better to say reorganisation of existing concepts.....have you ever learn at night, next day went to exam, and did it much better than you thought you know? It happened to me many times.....

Dreaming might not be serving the function of restoring mental capacities. It's entirely possible that it's an effect of something else going on in the brain. Or perhaps, it's just our consciousness' interpretation of this reorganizing process that's occuring while we sleep?

> Your "real" memory is nothing than connection of conncepts...which are based on linearity...so it makes them be your history (if there was not before and after, you could never know is that your memory, or just a dream

Very true. If we had no concept of linear time, would we experience a personal history? Would we have a personal narrative? Perhaps we'd just accumulate more ideas (though stating it that way invokes the idea of time... removing temporality from English is difficult)... Maybe what we call "memory" is simply the result of believing in time.

> On your question about separate memories on dreams and real time, it means that they are not separate, but only that dreams are connected to all sorts on concepts less then in the real world.
And often there are lot of dead ends...wich "keep" that dream far from your "memory".

Another idea I thought up is that perhaps since we have this idea of a "dream" and that we "know" dreams are not a part of "reality", our brains categorize them differently. We've essentially trained our brains to keep dreams at a distance.

I'd be interested if anyone knows about differences between cultures in recalling dreams, and how dreams are refered to in their language and culture. Anyone?


Thanks for alerting me to the post, Crobih



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OfflineNathaniel
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Re: The New Model ... I find it interesting- -very [Re: Crobih]
    #423879 - 10/12/01 09:46 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You guys should check a book by David Bohm
called "Wholeness and the Implicate Order".
He presents a rather incredible line of thought.
Just thought you might dig it.



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OfflineCrobih
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Re: The New Model ... I find it interesting- -very [Re: Kid]
    #425184 - 10/14/01 03:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Considering self analysis, I completelly agree with the concept that every idea is connected
to other concepts.
In fact, the very thing we call mind, is nothing than flow...or time function of brain happenings.

This does not enter or intercourse with the idea of consousness. It is the basic principle only.
It is important fact that in one moment thousands of processes intercourse in the head and all together we call it consiousness.
There are some flows, that consious us are not aware of, some we are, but I would leave that to neuroscience ( even though I consider subconsousness something wich is not directly based with concepts based on line ins...aka...sensoric system) I believe that we are only machines with line ins and line outs. For example, if I ask you to recall red sport coupe, your ears will send that sense to the brain translator, who will cause you enter into the neuro trace wich visually interprets red car. Off course in the same time you will recall sports coupe of that kind because the mental picture of all flaws together form the very happening.

So, in fact, if some happening produce something, it creates mental idea of it self. When you recall that idea, you produce the same effect as that happening wich equals mental picture such as red sport coupe.

The thing I think is important is your thought of basics (if I understand, that is what bothers you).
It is deffinite, that some principles cause you be happy, some other cause you be whatever. So, what is good and what is bad, it is up to concept connection, but what is more important, there should be some hardware, wich says...this happening is good for my future, or this happening is not good for my future.

For an example, I need energy to start acting, but energy is not spontaneus thing, so you do not do it even you should...call it lazyness. In a time, you will make a concept called lazyness, and it will be negative concept, because you link it to negative connotations. When the brains storm traces it as to negative thing, it causes you do the opposite. But not till the moment oposite flaws are stronger.

And what is good and what is bad.... I believe it has to be based on hardware. Maybe not those two basic concepts, and I call it instinct.

>It makes sense that things, or ideas, in both cases (the dream/neuron theory, and semantics)
are only defined by their differences or similarities to other things,
though for me it implies that the bottom could just "fall out" and reality break down completely
(hence postmodernism, I guess).

Please explain it to me. I do not get your meaning.

>Dreaming might not be serving the function of restoring mental capacities.
It's entirely possible that it's an effect of something else going on in the brain.
Or perhaps, it's just our consciousness' interpretation of this reorganizing process that's occuring while we sleep?

Off course this does not define dreaming, it only exlpains the possibility. Things as dream learning say it probably does,but off course it is not that simple from this point of view. There are some bad things that happen during sleep deprivation, wich can not be explained by informatical model. Afterall we are machines based on chemicals.

I am positive that if we look on brain concept such as informatic machine, the effects of dreams, sensation of dreams, than I explain it in a previous manner.

>Another idea I thought up is that perhaps since we have this idea of a "dream" and that we "know" dreams are not a part of "reality", our brains categorize them differently. We've essentially trained our brains to keep dreams at a distance.

Reading your previous quote, I doubt that you get my idea of linear model of hystoric happenings.
So, give me the new chance to explain the idea. In a one minute time you are constantly bombared with sensoric stimuli.
They make traces, actually the net of traces. For example You read the book. You see its color, you hear the sound of radio, you sit comfortably and have a (subconcious) feeling of gravity etc, etc. (there are probably thousands of new connections every minute). Now, they are trace in your memory. So, next time you recall your memory on reading book, the "linear" flow will happen.

The book reminds you on that radio program, in the same time the book reminds you and that sitting position etc. All those sensations actually interact among themselves in the same manner, and the reason we live in linear time, we reproduce those sensation in a linear matter. Pretty simmilar to the rope filamens wich intercourse, making strong rope.

When you dream, there is no exact linar cause, and that idea puts your sensations in an era of dreams.

Have you ever been drunk, so you could not recall the memories. It happened to me once. I did not remember anything.
Next day, I met my friends who told me the story what happened. When they told me that story, they reminded me on what happened. What did happened? This is my explanation. I was so drunk, that all those thousands of stimuli did not occur due to intoxication. In fact it happened only hundreds of stimuli.

They where based linearly too, but they where too lousy to have an exact reacall from them.
Then, my freinds connected those stimuli for me (by tolding me what happened) and from those fragments, I could recall the happening.
It is same with dreams. You do not remember what did you dream. But you see the person you dreamed, and voala, there is the dream. Actually, the person put you in a start of a linear flow of your dreams.
I hope I explained this to you a little bit better. I have a exact idea of memory tracing, but it is somehow hard to explain me in English. I would prefer to use Croatian and my hands for these explanation :)

To resume my blablas, I have to say: Brain does not caregorise them differently. It is only matter of traces (how many, how connected and hystoric cause *broken rope syndrome*) which in a linearity of life, make them be your "memories". Just it.

Dream recalls. What are you poining on with it, Kid?


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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: The New Model ... I find it interesting- -very [Re: Crobih]
    #425783 - 10/15/01 12:28 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Here's a litty clip from encyclopedia britanica (online) 'bout the wiring of the brain....

In some regions of the nervous system, initial synaptic contacts are precise and stable, indicative of an initial specificity of neuronal recognition. In other regions the initial contacts are not precise and stable and are followed later by an ordered reorganization, including the elimination of many synapses. The instability of some synaptic connections persists until a so-called critical period, prior to which environmental influences have a significant role in fine-tuning many connections. Following the critical period, synaptic connections become stable and are unlikely to be altered by environmental influences. This suggests that certain skills and sensory activities can be influenced during development (including postnatal life), and for some intellectual skills this adaptability presumably persists into adulthood and old age.

So I support the *idea* in our *brains* that higher intellectual development must look like a flurry of flowing reorganisation, while progressively lower functions remain stable.

Also, some people with a damaged hippocampus cannot encode new event memories - they adapt by, for example, writing a note above the stove if they have already eaten lunch so they don't eat lunch twice because they never encode new event memories. It looks like the hippocampus is not THE memory, rather it regulates encoding.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: The New Model ... I find it interesting- -very [Re: Crobih]
    #426281 - 10/15/01 01:52 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

>> It makes sense that things, or ideas, in both cases (the dream/neuron theory, and semantics)
are only defined by their differences or similarities to other things,
though for me it implies that the bottom could just "fall out" and reality break down completely
(hence postmodernism, I guess).

> Please explain it to me. I do not get your meaning.

Defining things that we perceive, as ideas, which are only defined by their relation to other ideas, seems to make reality completely unaccessible. If there are only ideas, then there's no contact with reality whatsoever. I find this a little hard to fathom. Aren't the neurons real, or whatever it is that "stores" or "configures" these ideas? Don't the storage or communication units in any way, have any contact with reality? If they do have contact with reality, then there are some ideas which are based on sensory input (eg// the colour green). Sensory input is not an idea, it's data. Data is contact with reality. Thus, words and ideas can define more than simply more than other words and/or ideas.

Umm, I'm not sure if that's clear.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: The New Model ... I find it interesting- -very [Re: Kid]
    #426318 - 10/15/01 02:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I got your point but do not see anyproblems with that. You can imagine RGB sensors like concepts wich are our link to reallity. those concepts act in the same manner as any other abstract concept. The only difference is that they send new impulses from outer world.

My opinion is that input/output is physically determinated and they are our contact with our body, external sensations, and primary goals such as sexuallity, hunger etc.

Anyway, you can watch our brain like input/output machine, and all flow of informations is actually something we percieve as our existence. And we do not need any data stored in brain. The only possible datas (or better to say existing concepts linked on our inputoutput) are our instincts.


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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: The New Model ... I find it interesting- -very [Re: Crobih]
    #426912 - 10/16/01 01:25 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You mentioned earlier in informatics a simpler model is better.

Here's a screen-shot of a two(2) neuron brain as a single pixel moving around the screen. Neuron 1 is the eye. Neuron 2 controls the foot. When the brain "steps" on a pixel it's "eye" sees what color it is, changes it, and then turns right or left depending on the original color. Then it moves forward one pixel. The brain has no "memory", btw.



It's amazing to me what only two neurons can do. Imagine what 100,000,000,000 could do. I hope this is not too off-topic.

Also one poential reason we do not remember much of our dreams is the hippocamus is not encoding memories.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: The New Model ... I find it interesting- -very [Re: oneoverzero]
    #427023 - 10/16/01 03:56 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

the reason that it is hipocampus the one who is guilty for our nonremembering the dreams could be. But how do you teach hipocampus to remember dreams?

My explanation is that we drill the brain by other concepts to be our link on dreams. And more the linking concepts you got, the more easy you remember. There is one way of inducind lucid dreaming by rechecking some daily routines.Like reading some shit on your palm, watching clock or simmilar.

Well, the idea is that watching watch you link it with idea of dreaming, and as you probably know, the things you percieve in a daily routine, more you dream. And now you even know what is the indicator for dreams, because those are your new magic objects.

After a while you can remember any dream very easy, because you linked the dreaming concepts (which lack, so you do not remember things) with daily life.

Due the fact that I do not know brain physiology I will not discuss about what region of brain is what, but I will keep to explain regular and less regular things by this concept.

What do you think?


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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: The New Model ... I find it interesting- -very [Re: Crobih]
    #427972 - 10/17/01 01:09 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Well here's something you may find interesting: Calea Zacatechichi

The plant is used by the Chontal Indians of Mexico to obtain divinatory messages during dreaming. Whenever it is desired to know the cause of an illness or the location of a distant or lost person, dry leaves of the plant are smoked, drunk and put under the pillow before going to sleep. Reportedly, the answer to the question comes in a dream.
Dreams are important in meso-american cultures. They are believed to occur in a realm of suprasensory reality and, therefore, are capable of conveying messages
? Lopez-Austin, 1980

Since the activity of Calea Zacatechichi in the brain is unknown, my best guess is that it might answer the hippocampus question. Also, I'll refrain from the modern western medicine view of the brain as a grouping of seperate organs. It's all out there in the literature en way.

Additionally, lucid dreams can be induced (and this has been done in research) with flashing red LED lights. When a sleeping subject goes into REM sleep (detectable by an electrode placed on the skin near the eye, or by external viewing), the red LED lights are turned on. Note: previous to sleep the subject is instructed, "When in your dreams, the sky begins flashing red, or a person turns red, or an object turns red - that is your signal to know you are dreaming". And the subject goes into a lucid state.

I think the linking of concepts is a good model. And to share my model with you, if it helps or not, is our mind's inventory of concepts each hold an 'intensity'. So the more 'intense' concepts tend to surface and take their place in what we remember. Also a concept's 'intensity' determins it's 'links' to other concept's 'intensity'. Sorta like a parametric equalizer - turn up 1Kz and it affects upper and lower frequencies too.

But now what do I REALLY think? I think you are onto discovering a model of your own brain/mind that is suitable and comfortable for you. And that by knowing your own model you can begin to know other people's models - which I think can be used for better relationships and a greater understanding of other people that have similar brains/models.

I say you won't finish this work all in a day, so keep working on it until you're comfortable with it. The only other suggestion I'd offer it to draw diagrams or maps or whatever works for you.

"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: The New Model ... I find it interesting- -very [Re: oneoverzero]
    #428207 - 10/17/01 06:00 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)


"Since the activity of Calea Zacatechichi in the brain is unknown, my best guess is that it might answer the hippocampus question. Also, I'll refrain from the modern western medicine view of the brain as a grouping of seperate organs. It's all out there in the literature en way. "

-All drugs act on global way usually. Off course there can be some drugs that act on just one region, ad probably that is the way this drug acts. I can not discuss over this exact species, because it would be speculation with no arguments wich would turn toward the answer. But, its effects are higly worthfull for the future steps on brain function explanation.



"Additionally, lucid dreams can be induced (and this has been done in research) with flashing red LED lights. When a sleeping subject goes into REM sleep (detectable by an electrode placed on the skin near the eye, or by external viewing), the red LED lights are turned on. Note: previous to sleep the subject is instructed, "When in your dreams, the sky begins flashing red, or a person turns red, or an object turns red - that is your signal to know you are dreaming". And the subject goes into a lucid state.!"
--- that is linking concepts excatly.


"I think the linking of concepts is a good model. And to share my model with you, if it helps or not, is our mind's inventory of concepts each hold an 'intensity'. So the more 'intense' concepts tend to surface and take their place in what we remember. Also a concept's 'intensity' determins it's 'links' to other concept's 'intensity'. Sorta like a parametric equalizer - turn up 1Kz and it affects upper and lower frequencies too. "
--- It is an accepted thing in neurology that when you learn something, than the neuronic traces become stronger and stronger. Actually, using neuron as a base, it is not a problem that axon, which sends information further makes new connections and changes its intensity durig time. So, it is normal and accepted thing in this model too :).


"But now what do I REALLY think? I think you are onto discovering a model of your own brain/mind that is suitable and comfortable for you. And that by knowing your own model you can begin to know other people's models - which I think can be used for better relationships and a greater understanding of other people that have similar brains/models. "
--- I disagree with you this time. Because people have the same brain basics and same paterns (aka lucid dreaming induction, same drugs same feelings, and all sorts o outer stimulli act on a brain in a simmilar way-- I say simmilar, because we do not have the same brain.), so we can make a conceptuall model wich suits everybody, and explains many things.


"I say you won't finish this work all in a day, so keep working on it until you're comfortable with it. The only other suggestion I'd offer it to draw diagrams or maps or whatever works for you. "
-- this is a model just a base of axioms or postulates to be more exact. With those postulates we have to make al new mathematics, so there is a plenty of space to disscuss over. Anyway, thanks for support.


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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: The New Model ... I find it interesting- -very [Re: Crobih]
    #428364 - 10/17/01 01:24 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Of course, the point of dissagreement (for me at least) is case-in-point that our minds are not homogenous because we dissagree - that's good. We are similar/different at the same time. I'm not the only one on the side against homogenous models, I've read from a psycologist (sorry lost the ref.) that a humongous problem in modern psycology is attemping to make a person fit into a homogenous model, better known as the statistical average. It's a confusion of following mathematics as the TRUTH about human beings, when in fact, it's the FACTS of human beings. Truth being defined here as a higher quality of information than Facts.

Facts make useful and workable TOOLS, and that's why they are so widely used today. One thing I keep in mind is that our western mentality is still emerging from the industrial age - which was all about Tools and Machines. Supposedly we've gone through the space age and into the information age. Not there yet...

Honestly my discussion with you in this thread is to add stimulus and support at the same time trying not to interfere too much with your designs. If I force too hard my ideas on you and you accept them (and visa versa) then we'll ultimately have the same mind. Not at all what I want.

Ne way, the Truth about human beings is where Spirituality (for lack of a better word) becomes paramount. It's a form of knowledge that can only be "metaphored" or "signposted". Pink Floyd "singinghints" at it saying... I can't explain you would not understand, which to me is a far-freaking-out way to describe the band Zebra's song Who's behind the door, which leads back to the DOORS, who got their name from Aldus Huxley's The Doors of Preception.

Sorry 'bout the rant (jeez I feel like a Dennis Miller reject) but, ya know, there's so much info out there - I thought maybe I'll just add some more. :D



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OfflineCrobih
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Re: The New Model ... I find it interesting- -very [Re: oneoverzero]
    #428603 - 10/17/01 06:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"Of course, the point of dissagreement (for me at least) is case-in-point that our minds are not homogenous because we dissagree - that's good. We are similar/different at the same time. I'm not the only one on the side against homogenous models, I've read from a psycologist (sorry lost the ref.) that a humongous problem in modern psycology is attemping to make a person fit into a homogenous model, better known as the statistical average. It's a confusion of following mathematics as the TRUTH about human beings, when in fact, it's the FACTS of human beings. Truth being defined here as a higher quality of information than Facts. "
--I agree with you, we are different, but we are based on same principles, and our mind follow them. Off course that neuronic net is changing by perception and though itself, so it make us different. And minor physical differences (wich cause high change --simmilar to chaos).




"Honestly my discussion with you in this thread is to add stimulus and support at the same time trying not to interfere too much with your designs. If I force too hard my ideas on you and you accept them (and visa versa) then we'll ultimately have the same mind. Not at all what I want. "
--- why not? anyway we usually start to take the point using some debatable attitudes. So, we can agree, but again look from different point of view. That is where I am aiming at.



That would be all for now.



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