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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: deCypher]
    #9385374 -

Quote:
Just because no proof has been found yet does not mean that the proof doesn't exist.


Well, when we look at the philosophical/spiritual method, how long we have been practicing, and its achievements, versus the scientific method, how long we have been practicing, and its achievements, I see the scientific method as being far more successful. We will never understand the universe using the philosophical/spiritual method. Ludwig Wittgenstein made this clear using the principles of logic (I could repost a quick summary of his theories I wrote for a paper if anyone's interested).

I believe in the spiritual/mystical, but I don't believe that we can define it as humans. All that leads to it pointless misinterpretations built around the logic we use to understand the everyday world, which is misapplied when used on spiritual/mystical concepts.

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: iamconfused]
    #9386335 -

The difference between logic and spirituality/mysticism is that in logic, there is already a structure with rules from the get-go. With spirituality/mysticism, so long as you don't follow a religious institution, you pretty much come up with the structure and its rules yourself.

The problem with the former is that since there's a possibility that the pre-existing structure is false in that it doesn't completely correspond with the truth, you could be manipulated into a false reality. The problem with the latter is that you could just simply delude yourself into a false reality.

It's all about equilibrium! :grin:

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: Poid]
    #9387179 -

It is one thing to be unconcerned with the idea of God, but the OP makes a good point to indicate that atheism - as a disbelief, affirms the ideas of God and belief. It is a dualistic concept; an expressed negation. These aspects should be self evident by the concepts definition.

As such, "atheism" and "disbelief" are linguistic tools.

For instance, I might pull it out of my bag when it is necessary to make a social statement. If someone is attempting to force feed a belief, I might declare atheism. So "I am an atheist", is a useful for just about anyone I think. I would use it as a negation, but in doing so recognizing that it is within the spectrum of belief. Atheism is no doubt a reference of God, even if it is a negation. While this might be useful, as long as I am an atheist, I am within the spectrum of substantial (+,-) belief.

Nothingness is different than negation. Many atheists get caught up in negation, because they really enjoy this resentment. For instance many atheists claim to be unconcerned with God, but will bring this resentment to surface as often as they can. They are living up to their name.

Atheism is a tool for peace and social harmony, but it is being "concerned with God", nonetheless.

In my opinion, it should be the endeavor of every "proclaimed" atheist to learn to escape the limitations of language.

I am not an atheist, I am nothing.

then nothing

then...

...

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: daytripper23]
    #9387211 -

daytripper23 said:
Atheism is a tool for peace and social harmony


Yeah, it really worked out well for communism.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: deCypher]
    #9387273 -

I am writing a paper about this actually.

Your right of course, as a tool, it isn't limited to that. That is what my whole post was about.

What I should have been more clear to say, is that atheism in its effective use (as an acknowledged negation) is telling someone to stop imposing their beliefs on you. That to me, is an appeal for peace.

This is not a basis though, or a clean slate for individualism or government.

Edited by daytripper23 (12/07/08 09:29 PM)

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: daytripper23]
    #9387287 -

Not necessarily, although some people could argue it that way.

I see both atheism and theism as models of reality, one with a metaphysical being and one without.  They're both equally valid foundations to a belief paradigm, however.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: deCypher]
    #9387299 -

Quote:
Not necessarily, although some people could argue it that way.


What, not necessarily?

and what is a valid belief? Doesn't that make everything valid?

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: daytripper23]
    #9387308 -

That it's not a suitable basis for forming a personal identity.

I think supposing that some beliefs are more valid than others supposes that there's some objective truth out there, and that you've determined which beliefs more closely match up to this truth.  I think this is also a false supposition.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: daytripper23]
    #9387389 -

My point in the post was that atheism creates a social identity, rather than its claim of a clean existential slate.

I should not have said identity in that last post, i should have just said individualism.

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: daytripper23]
    #9387410 -

Ahh, okay, then I can agree with you.

Personally I think religion is great for promoting social order, so long as every person belongs to the same one.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: deCypher]
    #9387519 -

Like the way in which many thousands of varieties of Christianity are in agreement?

Or perhaps you are referring to the hundreds of varieties of Baptists, each with their own interpretation of the Bible?


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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9387770 -

Different religious sects don't count as being under the same religion.  I'm not saying it's possible, but it's the only way it would work.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: deCypher]
    #9387932 -

Quote:
I just think that by using the word "God" in a sentence means that you acknowledge its existence...



as a concept.

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: axl]
    #9387995 -

As an atheist, I was quite startled by the title of this thread.  I had always thought that I didn't believe in God, but as fate would have it, it turns out that I actually do.

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: it stars saddam]
    #9388084 -

Quote:
I had always thought that I didn't believe in God, but as fate would have it, it turns out that I actually do.



We all do, we just don't know it yet.

Somebody didn't get the pamphlets. Jeez.

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: it stars saddam]
    #9388129 -

If you think you are an "atheist", you are probably indulging in your own metaphysic; which had might as well be God.

See my first post.

Just trying to draw attention :grin:

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: daytripper23]
    #9388429 -

Quote:
It is one thing to be unconcerned with the idea of God, but the OP makes a good point to indicate that atheism - as a disbelief, affirms the ideas of God and belief. It is a dualistic concept; an expressed negation. These aspects should be self evident by the concepts definition.


While that's true, you can also be an agnostic: a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience. To believe that God doesn't exist (atheism) is just as presumptive as assuming God does exist (theism). Both are sets of beliefs that attempt to define the metaphysical. So, atheism isn't just an expressed negation linguistically. It's an expressed negation mentally as well.

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: iamconfused]
    #9388527 -

But let's remember that children are first atheists by being one who has no belief or faith in any god.

All babies go to hell.

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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: Arden]
    #9388563 -

What happens to kittens?


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Re: atheists really do believe in God [Re: Arden]
    #9388580 -

Atheism as a belief has nothing to do with heaven or hell to me.

Also, you could only say these babies have no belief in God, which is much different than disbelief or resentment.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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