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Religion and God
    #1911013 -

Hi,

I thought I would throw out some of my thoughts on religion and
God:

I believe that an intelligence exists in this universe. I will
admit that I have no proof of this and that I base this belief on a
visceral feeling that I have. I believe that this intelligence had a
hand in our creation and growth, cares for us, and has motivations
and abilities that are absolutely beyond our comprehension. I have
designated this intelligence as "God".

Neither I, nor anybody else, knows the extent of God's
participation in Man's existence. Did he directly and knowingly
create us? If he did, are we his divinely chosen superior species on
this planet, or are we just another species amongst many? Does God
play a part in our current existence? Does he interfere with reality
at all? Does he just sit back and watch us exercise our free will,
or is all of reality under the complete preordained planning and
control of his Will? What does God do, to what extent does he do it,
and how does he do it? These are all questions which unfortunately
will never be answered.

God holds the key as to what right and wrong are. God holds the
key to Purpose. Without His will and unquestionable righteousness on
the important subject of what Man is supposed to strive for, we are
left with nothing; no structure, no boundaries, and no purpose. I
classify this knowledge of what is right and wrong and what
individuals should strive for as "Absolute Truth".

All religions state that they alone have the secret of Absolute
Truth. The monotheistic ones claim that God has a plan for us and
wishes for us to obey certain rules and strive for certain things.

These monotheistic religions attempt to understand and apply God's
will. I have concluded that they are all almalgimations of Man's
guesses, hopes, and outright fabrications. Even if some religious
teachings are divinely inspired, they are still interpreted, taught,
and enacted by Men, which makes them easily corrupted and therefore
suspect.

God has failed Mankind. He has not given us an accurate and
infallible representation of His will. He has not given us the
capability of understanding His will. He has not given us the
strength and fortitude needed to consistently obey His will.

With all of these flaws with the human condition, how is it possible
for any member of Mankind to know or follow Absolute Truth?

How can an advanced thing such as God, be responsible for creating
such a pathetically lost creature as Man and placing Him in a
hopeless situation? Is our existence meant as a large practical
joke? Is it meant to be a grand epic? Is it meant to be anything?



RandalFlagg

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Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1911022 -

If you are capable of asking questions as good as those, then you will be capable of finding the answers to them.

But don't take anyone else's answers. They're all trying to screw you.

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Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1911026 -

did you ever think maybe god is just like us maybe he can create this shit like our technology our tools but he can mold and shape matter maybe it doesnt even know why it exists maybe it put us here to figure him out? ever think bout that maybe this intelligence has no fucking clue what it is.just like animals they both fear and admire us we can give them food take care of them or we can kill them instantly.


--------------------
fight club was great tyler durden my hero and jack the person i relate to

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Re: Religion and God [Re: Jackden]
    #1911524 -

Nice Questions RandalFlag,Honestly man I dont know the answers to any of your questions,and I would guess that noone else does either,but man Religion is something I think we have to figure out and he'll take care of the rest until we die and meet him and then I think we will have the option to either stay in heaven with him or enter another world,a second life but have your same soul of course. I think that everyone has their own religion,everyone does not agree on some things about certain religions and some people do agress about certain things in certain religions,but I dont classify a group of people as Baptist or Catholics, I dont really classify people at all, I mean Im not going to lie, I do kind of judge people before I get to know them and that is the worst mistake one can ever make,EVER!!!Anyways, I just think that every person has their own Religion, whether it be Baptist or Catholic I dont know, but I really dont see the reason in even saying,"Hey, I'm a Baptist,What are you." Ya know,I dont really like it when people do that because that really means that they are what someone else is because they were taught that or because they were forced to beleive that,one has the option of beleiving what one wants and what one doesnt want to beleive in and that is their own opinion. For example, almost any kid is raised by his parents and they take him to the church that they go to all the time,so in actuality this kid is going to grow up thinking that whatever that preacher said is what he is supposed to do. But that is where people,all people go wrong,you have the power to beleive what you want,I think one should get out and explore in life and gain knowledge through whatever sources needed to gain it, and then one will be capable of thinking or beleiving what he/she wants to beleive and that will be that persons Religion for the rest of he/she's lifetime until they meet up with their GOD. I do beleive in GOD and I do believe that he put us here for a certain reason, and that is to beleive in him, no matter what, atleast to beleive in him and I think as long as you do that, I think he should accept us into the kingdon of heaven!Now, about Jesus thought, I really dont know if he was a real person or not, Honestly I want to beleive that because the bible says to beleive it, but I really dont believe in the bible because it was not wrote by GOD. But if it takes me beleiving in something that I dont neccesarly believe in just to spend eternity in HEAVEN then I will do that, because I want to be with GOD for the rest of time!!!And no matter what I dont think that this can be taken away from me, Now JESUS might of been real and he might not of been real, that is for us to find out, but I have doubts but then again I do beleive that he was real, I will never find that out. I do consider myself a christian thought, and I dont think that anyone should be able to take that away from me, I have prayed to GOD and asked him to come into my heart and be my savior, and I did tell him that I beleive his son died on the cross, but now re-thinking over that I lied to GOD. And it almost makes me cry thinking that I could Lie to one with so much Higher Power than me and Lie to the One that created me and this awesome Earth we live on, I just really would like GOD to forgive me for this and please accept my apologies and please accept me when I die here on Earth and allow me to come into HEAVEN, I hope so much that he understands me and does not take my beleifs away from me and still will accept me into the Kingdom of HEAVEN when I die.
I hope someone got something from this and maybe this will change your thoughts about maybe not having a GOD, I hope now that you beleive in GOD, and those that do beleive in GOD no what I am saying, just please pray for me and for others who are lost, and please help people find their way to the GREAT KINGDON OF HEAVEN!!!!
thanks for everyone's time,
ZAC FENNEL.


--------------------
________________________________
IF IN DOUBT,PLEASE THROW'EM OUT!
________________________________
fa'shizzle dizzle
its tha big parafenizzle
with tha big mushroomizzle
ya gotta know its off tha hizzle

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Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1911539 -

I do agree that these are questions you must answer for yourself. If you believe in christianity, or are even open to it, every question you have can be answered directly and irrefuteably by bible scripture. Not vagueness open to many interpretations.. but pretty blunt wording.

"Even if some religious teachings are divinely inspired, they are still interpreted, taught, and enacted by Men, which makes them easily corrupted and therefore suspect. "

If, (I do believe that there is no if in this statment.. but, for the purposes of illustration) there is an omniscient being, a superbeing.. god.. what have you, then I just dont understand why it is so hard to believe that he couldnt make a writing, be it written by or through other people, that is his word. I mean hell, if he can create the heavens and the earth he can definately proofread the ramblings of some apostles and mystics.


"God has failed Mankind. He has not given us an accurate and
infallible representation of His will. He has not given us the
capability of understanding His will. He has not given us the
strength and fortitude needed to consistently obey His will."

Again, it all depends on what type of relationship you choose to have with him as just like the most ferral animal or smallest flower, he has given us all we need. Our logic being greater and being created in his image, he has given us the ability to understand his will. Not only did he give us the old testament.. but just because we were foggy he sent his son, a physical manifestation of his spirit to earth to teach, heal and give faith to his creation and provide us with the new testament....

In anycase, I wish you luck on your journey. I will admit that some of the questions you have are the same that I, as a christian have and hope to one day ask God myself....

"Does he just sit back and watch us exercise our free will,
or is all of reality under the complete preordained planning and
control of his Will? What does God do, to what extent does he do it,
and how does he do it? "


--------------------

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Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1911971 -

Quote:
I believe that this intelligence had a hand in our creation and growth, cares for us, and has motivations and abilities that are absolutely beyond our comprehension. I have designated this intelligence as "God".


Or maybe this intelligence can be viewed as multiple gods, each one having different motivations and involvements, sometimes conflicting with other gods.

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Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1911991 -

RandalFlagg said:
God holds the key as to what right and wrong are. God holds the
key to Purpose. Without His will and unquestionable righteousness on
the important subject of what Man is supposed to strive for, we are
left with nothing; no structure, no boundaries, and no purpose. I
classify this knowledge of what is right and wrong and what
individuals should strive for as "Absolute Truth".


We still have structure, boundaries, and purpose, even without God making them: we ourselves made them. Now, has some divine force laid out moral rights, or have we ourselves made them as a necessity of surviving, or of controlling other people?

Perhaps the point of the universe's creation was to NOT set up any structure, boundaries, and purpose. We are left to evolve on our own. This is the way life has advanced on this planet for billions of years prior..

Quote:
God has failed Mankind. He has not given us an accurate and
infallible representation of His will. He has not given us the
capability of understanding His will. He has not given us the
strength and fortitude needed to consistently obey His will.



Maybe, then, there is no will? The idea of a monothesitic God watching over all of us and so forth really has no proof... I believe in the Creator, some sort of being that everything we know is what composes him, and He is only subdivided and infinitely subdivided so that He can experience himself, whether that is consciously or unconsciously, I do not know..

Let's say for a moment that there IS a monothesitic God as he is widely known in Christianity.. How the hell can WE, humans, say that we know the will of God, and so forth that He has failed us? Maybe it was his will to give us no understanding of his will?

Do you think that we should all automatically be instilled with strength and fortidude to do his bidding, which we have no way of knowing what that is? Or is strength and fortitude of one's faith something that comes from inside?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1912343 -

God holds the key as to what right and wrong are. God holds the
key to Purpose. Without His will and unquestionable righteousness on
the important subject of what Man is supposed to strive for, we are
left with nothing; no structure, no boundaries, and no purpose. I
classify this knowledge of what is right and wrong and what
individuals should strive for as "Absolute Truth".

it's troublesome how much of western thought has been built upon such a shaky foundation as the unprovable existance of an unknowable being.

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Re: Religion and God [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1912436 -


If you are capable of asking questions as good as those, then you will be capable of finding the answers to them.


These questions are unanswerable, because there exists no proof
to support any of the answers.

If I were to come to a conclusion, it would just be a guess.
And, my guess is going to differ from everybody else's guesses
on the subject. If there is no undeniable "Absolute Truth" to
compare your ideas too, then you have no clue as to how accurate you
are. God and "Absolute Truth" are impossible to find and know.
Anybody who claims to know either is a deluded, scared, a fool, or a
liar.



RandalFlagg

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Re: Religion and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1912461 -


Let's say for a moment that there IS a monothesitic God as he is widely known in Christianity.. How the hell can WE, humans, say that we know the will of God


Exactly my point. We don't know the will of God.


He has failed us? Maybe it was his will to give us no understanding of his will?


He has left us lost, with no verifiable hope of finding our way.
I consider that to be a failure, and a dooming of human existence.


Do you think that we should all automatically be instilled with strength and fortidude to do his bidding


Yes, I do.

How can he expect obedience and the acting out of His will, if
he did not give us the tools to accomplish this?



RandalFlagg

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Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1912499 -

RandalFlagg said:
Exactly my point. We don't know the will of God.....

He has left us lost, with no verifiable hope of finding our way.
I consider that to be a failure, and a dooming of human existence....

How can he expect obedience and the acting out of His will, if
he did not give us the tools to accomplish this?



So, then, we don't know the will of God? Then how can you consider what he has done as a failure? As we don't know his will, then how can we say he has failed?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Religion and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1912524 -


So, then, we don't know the will of God? Then how can you consider what he has done as a failure? As we don't know his will, then how can we say he has failed?


Whatever His will is or isn't, He has left us lost. If that was His intention, then I think it was terribly unfair of Him to do so.



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Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1912579 -

I also have this feeling of a higher power that controls our lives, however i ignore it and dont belive in it because i know its just my human nature having trouble gaining indipendance from my family. Just goes to show you you dont always have to trust your instincts, but thats just me. There could very well be a "God" and a heaven and angels and leprachauns and Ninja Turtels....... But if iam suppose to trust the same human "feelings" that tell me i want to kill someone when i am really angry at them to go to heaven the is God messing around with us? Is life a guessing game? Is the purpose of life to realize that their is a God with no hard evidance? Maybe......................................................................or maybe not..........................then again.........


--------------------

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Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1912626 -

I thought I would throw out some of my thoughts on religion and God

sounds like a fine idea.  :wink:

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Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1913168 -

RandalFlagg said:
Whatever His will is or isn't, He has left us lost. If that was His intention, then I think it was terribly unfair of Him to do so.



I don't really believe in the idea of a God creating us and suspossedly guiding us. We have free will. All of the choices are ours to choose, everything for us to learn for ourselves. It is by far better this way.

I mean, once someone pushes their intents and purposes on another, even if it is say God, we run into trouble... perhaps our entire purpose here is no purpose? We are to create our purpose on our own?

The blank sheet of paper, we are left to paint whatever the fuck we wish..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Religion and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1913221 -

Quote:
I will admit that I have no proof of this and that I base this belief on a visceral feeling that I have.


Have you ever questioned why you have this "visceral feeling", such as exploring the fact that cultures for thousands of years have assumed the existence of divine beings and caused belief in god to be so much a part of history and life in general? People believe things for a reason, even if they aren't necissarily true.


--------------------
There is no dark side of the moon really... Matter of fact, it's all dark.

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Re: Religion and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1913247 -


I don't really believe in the idea of a God creating us and suspossedly guiding us. We have free will.


Of course we have free will. I never said that God guided us(although
none of us really knows). But, if God exists then I assume He
has a proper knowledge of how things are and how one is to conduct
themself. I just wish that we knew what these things were.


All of the choices are ours to choose, everything for us to learn for ourselves. It is by far better this way.

perhaps our entire purpose here is no purpose? We are to create our purpose on our own?

The blank sheet of paper, we are left to paint whatever the fuck we wish..


So, you are saying that a Creator probably exists, but doesn't really
give a shit about our conduct? That is possible as well. Nobody
knows and nobody will ever know, and that is so damn depressing.




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Re: Religion and God [Re: MusicSucks]
    #1913257 -


Have you ever questioned why you have this "visceral feeling"


All of the time. I recognize that it could be social conditioning
that has implanted this idea of a "noble creator" in my head. I
also recognize that it could be that I just naturally came to the
conclusion of my own accord. Either way, it doesn't matter, because
I implicitly believe in a Creator no matter how much I try to use
logic to disprove it.

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Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1914796 -

RandalFlagg said:
Nobody knows and nobody will ever know, and that is so damn depressing.
   


It is only depressing if you make it depressing.. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1917718 -

I believe that an intelligence exists in this universe. I will
admit that I have no proof of this and that I base this belief on a
visceral feeling that I have. I believe that this intelligence had a
hand in our creation and growth, cares for us, and has motivations
and abilities that are absolutely beyond our comprehension. I have
designated this intelligence as "God".
GOD ISN'T APART OF THE UNIVERSE, BUT IS THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING EXTENDING BEYOND. GOD LOVES ALL UNCONDITIONALLY NO MATTER WHAT.

Neither I, nor anybody else, knows the extent of God's
participation in Man's existence. Did he directly and knowingly
create us? If he did, are we his divinely chosen superior species on
this planet, or are we just another species amongst many? Does God
play a part in our current existence? Does he interfere with reality
at all? Does he just sit back and watch us exercise our free will,
or is all of reality under the complete preordained planning and
control of his Will? What does God do, to what extent does he do it,
and how does he do it? These are all questions which unfortunately
will never be answered.
THERE IS NO SUPERIOR SPECIES ON THIS PLANET OR ANY OTHER. WELL NOT THE WAY YOU MEAN ANYWAY. EVERYBODY HAS THERE OWN ROLE TO FILL IN THIS THEATRE WE CALL LIFE. DON'T KNOW WHY YOU KEEP SAYING HE, GOD IS EVERYTHING SO NO NEED TO GIVE GOD A GENDER, COLOUR, OR ANYTHING ELSE. WE CREATED OURSELVES LIKE WE ARE TODAY, WE ALL ARE APART OF GODS DIVINE PLAN BUT WE ALL CHOOSE THE WAY TO BECOME ONE AGAIN.
God holds the key as to what right and wrong are. God holds the
key to Purpose. Without His will and unquestionable righteousness on
the important subject of what Man is supposed to strive for, we are
left with nothing; no structure, no boundaries, and no purpose. I
classify this knowledge of what is right and wrong and what
individuals should strive for as "Absolute Truth".
GOD DOESN'T HOLD THE KEYS OF RIGHT AND WRONG. WE DO BECAUSE WE JUDGE EVERYBODY ELSE SO MUCH SOCIETY HAS JUDGED WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG. WE HAVE A PURPOSE OF BEING ONE AGAIN WITH GOD, IN THE MEAN TIME WE HAVE SET OUR OWN BOUNDERIES, AND STRUCTURES TILL WE DROP THIS TOO WE WILL OPEN TO CHANGE AND WILL BE READY TO EVOLVE ONE WITH GOD.

All religions state that they alone have the secret of Absolute
Truth. The monotheistic ones claim that God has a plan for us and
wishes for us to obey certain rules and strive for certain things.
ABSOLUTE TRUTH IS DIFFERENT FOR EVERYTHING AND EVERYBODY. GOD NEVER GAVE US A SET OF RULES TO LIVE BY, ITS SET UP BY CONTROLING PEOPLE, BECAUSE ALL THEY WANT IS POWER.

These monotheistic religions attempt to understand and apply God's
will. I have concluded that they are all almalgimations of Man's
guesses, hopes, and outright fabrications. Even if some religious
teachings are divinely inspired, they are still interpreted, taught,
and enacted by Men, which makes them easily corrupted and therefore
suspect.

God has failed Mankind. He has not given us an accurate and
infallible representation of His will. He has not given us the
capability of understanding His will. He has not given us the
strength and fortitude needed to consistently obey His will.
WE HAVE TO CAPABILITY TO UNDERSTAND, BUT SOCIETY HAS TAUGHT US TO IGNORE SUCH THINGS, GOD DOES NOT HAVE WILL GOD JUST WANTS US TO BE. WE HAVEN'T ALLOWED OURSELVES TO HAVE ENOUGH STRENGTH AND FORTITUDE IT WASN'T ANY OF GODS DOING.

How can an advanced thing such as God, be responsible for creating
such a pathetically lost creature as Man and placing Him in a
hopeless situation? Is our existence meant as a large practical
joke? Is it meant to be a grand epic? Is it meant to be anything? WE CREATED OURSELVES AS HUMANS, WE CAN CHANGE BUT DOING SO WE HAVE TO RID OFF ALL OUR HABITS, BELEIFS AND CONDITIONING BY SOCIETY. GOD DOESN'T DO ANYTHING TO BETTER OUR SOCIETY BECAUSE OF FREE WILL WHEN WE WANT TO CHANGE AND ACCPET THAT WE CAN CHANGE WE WILL EVOLVE TO BETTER AND HIGHER BEINGS.

IF YOU WOULD LIKE MORE ANSWERS THERE ARE NUMEROUS OF GREAT BOOKS OT READ
HERE ARE A FEW
CONVERSATIONS WITH GOD 1, 2, 3
THAT IS A GREAT SERIES YOU WILL LEARN ALOT ABOUT HUMANITY
ANOTHER
DAN MILLMAN BOOKS
WAY OF THE PEACEFUL WARRIOR
SACRED JOURNEY OF THE PEACEFUL WARRIOR
AND ALSO
BETWEEN TWO WORLDS BY ANNE MORTEN


--------------------
suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem

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Re: Religion and God [Re: spudamore]
    #1917816 -

spudamore said:
GOD ISN'T APART OF THE UNIVERSE, BUT IS THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING EXTENDING BEYOND. GOD LOVES ALL UNCONDITIONALLY NO MATTER WHAT.


Everything that we see and experience are just little pieces of this great Creation, everything that there is completes this Creation...

Quote:
GOD DOESN'T HOLD THE KEYS OF RIGHT AND WRONG. WE DO BECAUSE WE JUDGE EVERYBODY ELSE SO MUCH SOCIETY HAS JUDGED WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG.  WE HAVE A PURPOSE OF BEING ONE AGAIN WITH GOD, IN THE MEAN TIME WE HAVE SET OUR OWN BOUNDERIES, AND STRUCTURES TILL WE DROP THIS TOO WE WILL OPEN TO CHANGE AND WILL BE READY TO EVOLVE ONE WITH GOD. 


Exactly. Everything that we have today, we have picked up over time, from discovery by ourselves. We have clued ourselves in on the working and forces of the Universe, they have always been there and we "relearned" them, they weren't given to us by any means..

Quote:
ABSOLUTE TRUTH IS DIFFERENT FOR EVERYTHING AND EVERYBODY.  GOD NEVER GAVE US A SET OF RULES TO LIVE BY,  ITS SET UP BY CONTROLING PEOPLE, BECAUSE ALL THEY WANT IS POWER.


We are free people, set to do whatever we wish with the surroundings that we are in. The only rules that we have were made by us ourselves.. To further advance civilization, order must be created out of the chaos, and sometimes people want to much order to fit their own needs and create illusions to get exactly what they want out of people.. all it takes is some good old perspective and some good senses to tune in on what is really going on...

Quote:
WE HAVE TO CAPABILITY TO UNDERSTAND, BUT SOCIETY HAS TAUGHT US TO IGNORE SUCH THINGS, GOD DOES NOT HAVE WILL GOD JUST WANTS US TO BE. WE HAVEN'T ALLOWED OURSELVES TO HAVE ENOUGH STRENGTH AND FORTITUDE IT WASN'T ANY OF GODS DOING.


Exactly. If we all realized and utilized the freedom that we all have, the people who have things set up to benefit themselves, their plans and their organizations for control would lose that power. To them, having that power is the most important thing in the world, so they, of course, protect those interests.

I also believe that what is suspossed to happen, happens. For every negative step that someone makes, there is always someone else taking that positive step..

Quote:
WE CREATED OURSELVES AS HUMANS, WE CAN CHANGE BUT DOING SO WE HAVE TO RID OFF ALL OUR HABITS, BELEIFS AND CONDITIONING BY SOCIETY. GOD DOESN'T DO ANYTHING TO BETTER OUR SOCIETY BECAUSE OF FREE WILL WHEN WE WANT TO CHANGE AND ACCPET THAT WE CAN CHANGE WE WILL EVOLVE TO BETTER AND HIGHER BEINGS.



We all have a lot of addictions to various things that seriously cloud our perception. If we are going to see what is really going on, what the bigger picture is, and what needs to be done to get to the next level, we must stop tying ourselves to the ground, pull these attachments and start to soar..

By the way, welcome to Spirituality and Philosophy! :grin:
Peace. 


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Religion and God [Re: spudamore]
    #1921348 -


GOD NEVER GAVE US A SET OF RULES TO LIVE BY

THERE IS NO SUPERIOR SPECIES ON THIS PLANET OR ANY OTHER. WELL NOT
THE WAY YOU MEAN ANYWAY. EVERYBODY HAS THERE OWN ROLE TO FILL IN
THIS THEATRE WE CALL LIFE. DON'T KNOW WHY YOU KEEP SAYING HE, GOD
IS EVERYTHING SO NO NEED TO GIVE GOD A GENDER, COLOUR, OR ANYTHING
ELSE. WE CREATED OURSELVES LIKE WE ARE TODAY, WE ALL ARE APART OF
GODS DIVINE PLAN BUT WE ALL CHOOSE THE WAY TO BECOME ONE AGAIN.

WE HAVE A PURPOSE OF BEING ONE AGAIN
WITH GOD, IN THE MEAN TIME WE HAVE SET OUR OWN BOUNDERIES, AND
STRUCTURES TILL WE DROP THIS TOO WE WILL OPEN TO CHANGE AND WILL
BE READY TO EVOLVE ONE WITH GOD.

GOD ISN'T APART OF THE UNIVERSE, BUT IS THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING EXTENDING BEYOND.

GOD LOVES ALL UNCONDITIONALLY NO MATTER WHAT.

GOD DOES NOT HAVE WILL GOD JUST WANTS US TO BE.

WE CREATED OURSELVES AS HUMANS


You don't know any of these things. These are merely your guesses at
the "order of the universe" and the "way things are". Your guess is
as good as mine however. This unkown is what haunts me. There is no
proof of anything. There is no path to follow.


GOD DOESN'T HOLD THE KEYS OF RIGHT AND WRONG. WE DO BECAUSE
WE JUDGE EVERYBODY ELSE SO MUCH SOCIETY HAS JUDGED WHAT IS
RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG.


We humans do implement our own notions of right and wrong. But,
it is quite telling that there are many views in the human
world as to what is right and what is wrong. If what right and wrong
is is determined by people, then there is no absolute right and wrong.
There would be no undeniable standard of right and wrong that exist.
I think that the only way that right and wrong can exist is if an
intelligence of some type has implemented it.


ABSOLUTE TRUTH IS DIFFERENT FOR EVERYTHING AND EVERYBODY.


No it isn't. Absolute Truth is something that is irrefutable. It is
something that cannot be denied if faced with proof of it. It can be
rejected(you can choose not to follow it), but its validity as
Absolute Truth cannot be denied.



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Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1921941 -

RandalFlagg said:
You don't know any of these things.  These are merely your guesses at
the "order of the universe" and the "way things are".  Your guess is
as good as mine however.  This unkown is what haunts me.  There is no
proof of anything.  There is no path to follow.


Maybe there is not a path to follow so that we can come up with our own path? Maybe there is no proof of anything because there is no definite, untouchable system that gives us truth?

Quote:
We humans do implement our own notions of right and wrong.  But,
it is quite telling that there are many views in the human
world as to what is right and what is wrong.  If what right and wrong
is is determined by people, then there is no absolute right and wrong.
There would be no undeniable standard of right and wrong that exist.
I think that the only way that right and wrong can exist is if an
intelligence of some type has implemented it.


What makes the intelligence that implents it have the undeniable standard of right and wrong?

What is right and what is wrong HAS been determined by us, people. The reason that there is so many different takes on what is right and what is wrong is because everyone has a different idea of what right and wrong is. There is no "intelligence" that has the definite take on what is and what isn't. If there was, I could disagree with it, holding different ideas on the same issue, and thereby making his definite take on it null and void.

Quote:
No it isn't.  Absolute Truth is something that is irrefutable.  It is
something that cannot be denied if faced with proof of it.  It can be
rejected(you can choose not to follow it), but its validity as
Absolute Truth cannot be denied.
 


The concept of an Absoulte Truth is such that is irrefutable, unfortunately, there is NO absolute truth. All it takes is one person to not agree that this "absolute truth" is the Truth and it is no longer the absolute truth, no matter how powerful this "intelligence" is or how many people believe in the "absolute truth":

You say that there is no proof of anything, than how could anyone believe that some "absolute truth" is in fact the one and only, absolute truth? :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Religion and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1922057 -

Quote:
All it takes is one person to not agree that this "absolute truth" is the Truth and it is no longer the absolute truth



Can you elaborate on this please? I don't quite follow you.


--------------------
I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Religion and God [Re: Jellric]
    #1922139 -

Jellric said:
Can you elaborate on this please? I don't quite follow you.


What validates one being's (even if he is indubiantly more supreme than us) idea of the Absolute Truth as the actual, Absolute Truth?

What I am pointing to is a completely subjective experience. We all have independant, seperate views, and although a lot of the actual ideas and beliefs are basically similar, each one is still entirely independant and ultimately different in that one person's head..

Anyways, an absolute truth has to be believed by ALL to be an Absolute Truth, because otherwise, it is no longer absolute, because there is still a belief somewhere that says that it is NOT the absolute truth.. heh.
Peace.



--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Religion and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1922195 -

The Absolute Truth doesn't require everyone believes in it. If everyone believes the sky is pink and you're the only one who believes it's blue, that would mean you're the only one realising this truth.

Another example: the earth orbiting around the sun. If you'd said that in, say, the early Middle Ages, practically no one in the West would have agreed with you. Doesn't change the Absolute Truth though.

The Absolute Truth =! Universally Accepted Truth


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Religion and God [Re: Alan Stone]
    #1922274 -

Alan Stone said:
The Absolute Truth doesn't require everyone believes in it. If everyone believes the sky is pink and you're the only one who believes it's blue, that would mean you're the only one realising this truth.

Another example: the earth orbiting around the sun. If you'd said that in, say, the early Middle Ages, practically no one in the West would have agreed with you. Doesn't change the Absolute Truth though.

The Absolute Truth =! Universally Accepted Truth


The CONCEPT of Absolute Truth requires all of this, but there is no actual Absolute Truth, I think...

But I am very, very, very tired and will have to come back to all of this tomorrow, so I will return with a fresh perspective on this...
Peace.



--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Religion and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1922413 -

You don't know any of these things. These are merely your guesses at
the "order of the universe" and the "way things are". Your guess is
as good as mine however. This unkown is what haunts me. There is no
proof of anything. There is no path to follow.

i have no proof of it, and these aren't guesses, i know for myself this is what is true for me. i used to be scared of all unknown to me since i was 3 years old so scared i used to get into an anxiety attack there wouldn't be a week that i would think aobut it, and the way i overcame it was to do intense meditations and i have shed a lot of light on all these subjects for me, alot of truths and understandings of the universe and life has come to me. maybe open your mind a little more and see what is truely inside you. there are billions of paths to follow but you just don't see the windows of opportunity that are open for you, "no problems just opportunities" the quicker oyu get this concept the quicker you will open your mind to perceive all windows of opportunities.


We humans do implement our own notions of right and wrong. But,
it is quite telling that there are many views in the human
world as to what is right and what is wrong. If what right and wrong
is is determined by people, then there is no absolute right and wrong.
There would be no undeniable standard of right and wrong that exist.
I think that the only way that right and wrong can exist is if an
intelligence of some type has implemented it.

there are no right or wrongs only perceptions. how could "intelligence of some type" have so much unconditional love implement a way of right or wrong?

No it isn't. Absolute Truth is something that is irrefutable. It is
something that cannot be denied if faced with proof of it. It can be
rejected(you can choose not to follow it), but its validity as
Absolute Truth cannot be denied.

i carn't argue that because that is your perceeption of absolute truth


--------------------
suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem

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Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1922713 -

I received a Christian baptism following a number of life-changing spiritual experiences during my undergraduate years - on July 1, 1976. I have never regretted my Path, and have endeavored to be open to those 'Uncreated Energies' that have generated Christ in my Heart. To the extent that one acts from Compassion, often denying one's own egocentric preferences - putting 'the other' before oneself - one is 'doing the Will of God' as the example of Jesus teaches. Acting thusly, one is simultaneously humble - one's ego a mere servant of God. This is the everyday mysticism of being Christ[ian] at one's Center.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Religion and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1924793 -


Maybe there is not a path to follow so that we can come up
with our own path? Maybe there is no proof of anything because
there is no definite, untouchable system that gives us truth?


Then we are lost. Some people delight in picking their
own path, but I do not. I crave boundaries and a purpose
greater than myself.


There is no "intelligence" that has the definite take on what is
and what isn't. If there was, I could disagree with it

The concept of an Absoulte Truth is such that is irrefutable,
unfortunately, there is NO absolute truth. All it takes is one
person to not agree that this "absolute truth" is the Truth and
it is no longer the absolute truth, no matter how powerful this
"intelligence" is or how many people believe in the "absolute truth":

You say that there is no proof of anything, than how could anyone
believe that some "absolute truth" is in fact the one and only,
absolute truth?

What makes the intelligence that implents it have the undeniable
standard of right and wrong?


I am willing to accept the will of my creator and to recognize it
as being correct and superior to anything Man can imagine.


What is right and what is wrong HAS been determined by us, people.


Yes it has. Because we have never gotten a glimpse at Absolute Truth,
all of the ideas that we hold as right and wrong are thought up
by us, and therefore have no validity.


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Re: Religion and God [Re: Alan Stone]
    #1924796 -


The Absolute Truth doesn't require everyone believes in it.

example: the earth orbiting around the sun. If you'd
said that in, say, the early Middle Ages, practically no one
in the West would have agreed with you. Doesn't change the
Absolute Truth though.


Exactly. A person could think whatever they want, but that doesn't
change the Absolute Truth. The Absolute Truth could be called
"Factual Morality": a view of right and wrong that is undeniable
in its righteousness.

Just because everyone in the Middle Ages thought the sun rotated
around the Earth, does not change the fact that the Earth actually
rotated around the sun and has for billions of years.

It doesn't matter what people think, it matters if this undeniable
fact of right and wrong(Absolute Truth) exists much like the fact
of the orbiting Earth exists.


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Re: Religion and God [Re: spudamore]
    #1924797 -



there are no right or wrongs only perceptions. how
could "intelligence of some type" have so much unconditional love
implement a way of right or wrong?


To enable us to know the correct way in which to conduct ourselves.



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Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1924856 -

RandalFlagg said:
Then we are lost. Some people delight in picking their
own path, but I do not. I crave boundaries and a purpose
greater than myself.


Well, if you really need a purpose greater than yourself, then have fun being manipulated to implement others plans that lucratively offer a purpose greater than oneself.

Quote:
I am willing to accept the will of my creator and to recognize it
as being correct and superior to anything Man can imagine.


Hhm.. how can you accept the will of a Creator, who, as you said yourself, has not made any will of his apparent for us to follow? Or perhaps the fact that there is no will at all, except to experience his Creation without attachment?

How will you be able to diffrentiate from his will and another's will? Why must we have some map to run our lives according to some pre-cut plan? Why do we need someone to lead us?

Quote:
Yes it has. Because we have never gotten a glimpse at Absolute Truth,
all of the ideas that we hold as right and wrong are thought up
by us, and therefore have no validity.


So, because we thought them up, means they have no validity? Okay, yes, we as humans are imperfect and incapable of any sort of validity because we haven't gotten a glimpse of an Absolute Truth that really doesn't exist?

Quote:
It doesn't matter what people think, it matters if this undeniable
fact of right and wrong(Absolute Truth) exists much like the fact
of the orbiting Earth exists.


What if I decide to MAKE what I think matter? In the grand scheme of things, nothing I think matters, but paradoxically, EVERYTHING I think matters. To me, whatever I think may be more important than whatever some God thinks, and I am sure that whatever he thinks is more important than what I think to him. There isn't really an absolute truth, except maybe the here and now, but there is no way of knowing if it is actually the Truth..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Religion and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1926126 -

To enable us to know the correct way in which to conduct ourselves.

Thats something we have to figure out ourselves, its apart of our own journey, if we had a set of rules by god to live by we would be all robots walking around with out our own thoughts and creativity because the rules would already has determined what we should think


--------------------
suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem

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Re: Religion and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1928606 -


Well, if you really need a purpose greater than yourself, then
have fun being manipulated to implement others plans that
lucratively offer a purpose greater than oneself.

I am too scared to go through life with nothing guiding me. But, I
am not stupid enough to be a follower.



Hhm.. how can you accept the will of a Creator, who, as you said
yourself, has not made any will of his apparent for us to follow?


Because any creator is going to be absolutely superior to myself.
Because of that I recognize His will as being superior to anything
that can be envisioned by the human race. Just because He has not
shown us His will does not mean it is not righteous. But, I am
pissed that he hasn't shown us his will in a concise and
comprehensible way.


Or perhaps the fact that there is no will at all, except to
experience his Creation without attachment?

Why must we have some map to run our lives according to some pre-cut
plan? Why do we need someone to lead us?

What if I decide to MAKE what I think matter? In the grand scheme
of things, nothing I think matters, but paradoxically, EVERYTHING
I think matters. To me, whatever I think may be more important than
whatever some God thinks


Only a genius, a fool, or a person with no conscience is capable of
thriving in that state. I am none of these things. This freedom
from attachment to any Absolute Truth is too uncomfortable and too
unpredictable for me to want to partake in it.


How will you be able to diffrentiate from his will and another's will?

At the present moment it is impossible to do this. I have no clue
as to how God would make His will evident if he were to decide to
do so.


So, because we thought them up, means they have no validity? Okay, yes, we as humans are imperfect and incapable of any sort of validity because we haven't gotten a glimpse of an Absolute Truth that really doesn't exist?


If Absolute Truth does exist, anything humans have thought up has no
validity because of the unquestionable righteousness of Absolute
Truth. If Absolute Truth doesn't exist, then there is no standard to
measure our ideas against. All ideas of morality would be relative,
and therefore none would have any validity. In either scenario,
things that come from Man are worthless.







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Re: Religion and God [Re: spudamore]
    #1928609 -


Thats something we have to figure out ourselves, its apart of our own journey, if we had a set of rules by god to live by we would be all robots walking around with out our own thoughts and creativity because the rules would already has determined what we should think


Maybe that is true.

Reminds me of an idea: Deprive a people of their freedom and
they will be miserable. Give them their freedom and they will
destroy themselves.

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Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1928673 -

RandalFlagg said:
I am too scared to go through life with nothing guiding me.  But, I
am not stupid enough to be a follower.


If you are afraid, you have addictions to the security level, which seriously cuts you off from life's experiences and will eat your own energy like a serpent .. if you can't trust yourself and what you are doing and your own ability to decide what to do in your own life, than you ARE stupid enough to be a follower... ahem.

What you said doesn't even make any sense, anyways.. if you are being guided, and you are following the guidelines, then you obviously ARE following those guidelines... which makes you: a FOLLOWER.

Quote:
Because any creator is going to be absolutely superior to myself.
Because of that I recognize His will as being superior to anything
that can be envisioned by the human race.  Just because He has not
shown us His will does not mean it is not righteous.  But, I am
pissed that he hasn't shown us his will in a concise and
comprehensible way.


Yeah, I saw this one, on the Twilight Zone, no less. Aliens came to Earth. Definitely superior than us. They even took a lie dectector test... they said "Our sole purpose in coming is to serve humans", and they passed, which made everyone pleased..

They left a book, in their own language. Anyways, there were some codebreakers, a guy and a chick, working on breaking the code..

At the same time, the aliens were taking people into their ships, so they could fly them back to their planet and serve the humans...

Turns out the book was a cookbook. They indeed planned on serving the humans... for dinner, no less.

They never made their will and intentions known to all, and they were definitely superior, as they flew to Earth and all (and led people to believe they had good intentions, of course, there are a lot of humans that have this power as well, as people really want to believe stuff that is too good to be true)...

Of course, I would be pissed too if I believed some superior race misled me while speaking the Truth to believe they were righteous and ended up eating me for dinner... ahem.

Quote:
Only a genius, a fool, or a person with no conscience is capable of
thriving in that state.  I am none of these things.  This freedom
from attachment to any Absolute Truth is too uncomfortable and too
unpredictable for me to want to partake in it. 


So, you are too uncomfortable to partake in not being attached to an Absolute Truth that has not been made apparent to you and would have no verification that it is the Absolute Truth if it was made apparent to you?

So, if you are not either a genius, a fool, or a person with no conscience, what do you register under? :grin: I'll assume the "genius" tiltle, the other two options really don't fit me..

Quote:
If Absolute Truth does exist, anything humans have thought up has no
validity because of the unquestionable righteousness of Absolute
Truth.  If Absolute Truth doesn't exist, then there is no standard to
measure our ideas against.  All ideas of morality would be relative,
and therefore none would have any validity.  In either scenario,
things that come from Man are worthless.
 


If some sort of Absolute Truth does exist, then you are correct in saying that what we would have thought up would not be valid.

If it doesn't exist, then there IS no standard to measure up agansit, just as there NEVER has been for us. All ideas of morality ARE relative.

So, even though we have, through repeated experience in trying to survive, found a rough set of morals that protect us from extinction, it is just worthless??

I'm sorry, but I don't see why living with no absolute except for the fact that we are somewhere, presumably alive because we are breathing (regardless of whether or not we are just a thought that some being on another level is toying with while stoned) is so hard to do.. those religions have gotten too deep in your head, my friend. The Order that is established from Chaos is still surrounded by Chaos, and will one day be consumed once again by it...
Peace. 


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Religion and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1929254 -


If you are afraid, you have addictions to the security level

Yes, I crave security. Most people do.


which seriously cuts you off from life's experiences and will eat
your own energy like a serpent ..

Quite possibly.


What you said doesn't even make any sense, anyways.. if you are being
guided, and you are following the guidelines, then you obviously ARE
following those guidelines... which makes you: a FOLLOWER.

Let me clarify that a little. I am not stupid enough to be a follower
of anything that has originated from Man. Part of me desires to have
an Absolute Truth so the ambiguities of life would be solved.

But, as with most people, I do possess some rebellion in me. I would
be resentful if I was forced to follow Absolute Truth. So, I am a
skeptical person who wants to follow something, but at the same time
maintain my free will. And, I also am quite aware of the pitfalls of
following something.


Yeah, I saw this one, on the Twilight Zone.....


Good point. Just because something claims to be superior, does that
mean we should blindly follow it?

Even if something did create the heavens, the Earth, and humanity,
does that mean it is any more correct than us? That is something we
all need to answer for ourselves.


So, you are too uncomfortable to partake in not being attached to an
Absolute Truth that has not been made apparent to you and would have
no verification that it is the Absolute Truth if it was made apparent
to you?

So, even though we have, through repeated experience in trying to
survive, found a rough set of morals that protect us from extinction,
it is just worthless??

I'm sorry, but I don't see why living with no absolute except for the
fact that we are somewhere, presumably alive because we are breathing
(regardless of whether or not we are just a thought that some being
on another level is toying with while stoned) is so hard to do..



Yes, yes, and it may not bother you but it does bother me.

If there is no standard of morality that can be proven, it dismays
me because then nothing can be assured of having validity. If nothing
can be proven to have validity, nothing should be followed. If
nothing should be followed, then life is meaningless. If life is
meaningless, it means that the value of the human race and all of our
efforts are meaningless and have no higher purpose.

It means that all is permitted, even the most vile things
you can imagine. It means there is nothing to strive for and
nothing worth striving for.

It means that we aren't loved, cherished, or guided, and that we
are alone.


So, if you are not either a genius, a fool, or a person with no
conscience, what do you register under?

A person too smart to be a follower, but to scared to be an
individual.


If some sort of Absolute Truth does exist, then you are correct in
saying that what we would have thought up would not be valid.

True.


If it doesn't exist, then there IS no standard to measure up agansit,
just as there NEVER has been for us. All ideas of morality ARE
relative.

True.


those religions have gotten too deep in your head, my friend.


It is nihilism that has gotten too deep into my head.



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Re: Religion and God [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1929368 -

Quote:
It is nihilism that has gotten too deep into my head.




Sometimes people who feel that way follow it up with a bullet.
I don't mean to be morbid, just that almost any belief/no belief is better than nihilism. Nihilism is more of an emotional disorder where your external reality is a reflection of your inner one. (Actually, you could probably make the same case for any belief, just that nihilism is such a particularly damaging one).

Quote:
God has failed Mankind. He has not given us an accurate and
infallible representation of His will. He has not given us the
capability of understanding His will. He has not given us the
strength and fortitude needed to consistently obey His will.
With all of these flaws with the human condition,



Sounds to me like the flaw is more in your conception of God rather than mankind.
If your concept of God is not consistent with your observations perhaps you need to update your concept of what God is.

Seems to me like you're clinging to your old sense of self instead of letting it go along with the obsolete ideas that created it. No wonder you feel terrible, my friend! Shed your skin and leave it behind you- don't identify with it. You'll feel better for it.



--------------------
I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Religion and God [Re: Jellric]
    #1931620 -

Jellric said:
Sometimes people who feel that way follow it up with a bullet.
I don't mean to be morbid, just that almost any belief/no belief is better than nihilism. Nihilism is more of an emotional disorder where your external reality is a reflection of your inner one. (Actually, you could probably make the same case for any belief, just that nihilism is such a particularly damaging one).


Reminds me of the Big Lebowski... oh god! :grin:

"No, Donny, these men are nihilists." and all that shit about them... very hilarious. Ahem, anyways..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Religion and God [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1932673 -

Wow! What a read......
The journey to finding one's own religion/belief system/view of God (or the exact opposite) is begun with questions. There may be no answers other than the gut feeling you have inside on whether or not a particular dogma (or lack thereof) feels "right" for you. Trust yourself. Only you know. Not a church, not another person, not a religion....only YOU.
Just know that if one believes there MUST be undeniable proof of god's existence in order to believe, then the path taken is not one of faith. Faith is a belief not resting on logical proof or evidence. If that faith factor is no longer valid for you, then time to move on. The journey continues and extends in another direction away from faith and into what is real and true for YOU.


--------------------
"Those sweet excesses I do adore."


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