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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Are we God coming into realization of himself? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7918909 -

Tchan909 said:
MushroomTrip said:
No


This is also not a question.



Great observation, Sherlock. :sherlock:

It is an answer to a question. :smirk:

Quote:
You have made assertions, truly asking nothing, attempting to dictate to Ginseng1 how he should express his intuitions about the universe so that you are comfortable reading them.


This forum is specifically intended for open debate. Responding to someone else's post as one wishes to do is not dictating anything of how another should respond. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand when the top threads in this forum specifically state how this forum is intended to be used.

Quote:
If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported. If having your beliefs, opinions, and positions scrutinized critically makes you uncomfortable, this is not the forum for you.


At any rate, I don't comprehend how your critique of the manner in which she approached the subject has anything to do with the topic of this thread. If you did not wish to actually engage in the discussion that she put forth, then why feel the need to stand up on your soapbox in an off-topic manner, spin the discussion away from the original topic, and make baseless assertions regarding someone seeking debate in a debate forum? :lol:

The response wasn't targeted to you anyways, so I don't see why you have to make someone else's decision for them whether or not they should reply back. Was it really necessary to create irrelevant drama in a P&S thread? :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Are we God coming into realization of himself? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7918944 -

Your posts in this thread thus far seem to be some of the best assertions made in this forum in recent history. Not just in regards to MT but in regards especially to argumentation theory.

Tchan909 said:
Rather than trying to get everyone to agree with you in exactly the words you find palatable, you should encourage them to develop their ideas in their own way. You'll find the two of you will wind up making more sense to more people with your diverging perspectives. If you shoehorn everything Ginseng1 says into your own semantic preferences, and convince him he's wrong to use words like "he" and "God," he'll end up sounding like you and the only people who will listen to him are the people who listen to you. Thereby stunting both his semantic development and the cultural growth of the beliefs you share. You both lose.


Why haven't I thought of that? I'm going to have to come back and reread this bit a couple more times in the near future. I've always shared a similar view on the subject, just had never put it so eloquently.


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Re: Are we God coming into realization of himself? [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7919162 -

This is not a new theory/hypothesis, but you indeedly put it into words very well :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: !
I very much share the basic idea, maybe I'll come back later to elaborate.
Maybe this so far: G*D's' realisations are only partially realized by us, but our realisations are fully realised by G*D.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Are we God coming into realization of himself? [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7919199 -

Ginseng1 said:
The creative power and genius that we possess leads me to believe so. 

We are God experiencing himself.  Whether it was an accident or not is irrelevant.  Our bodies are a mass of elaborately structured vibrations of energy.  This particular order of vibrations is able to do all kinds of neat tricks, because it is aware of its ability to do so. And this curious order of vibrations that we embody, in essence, is experiencing nothing more but other vibratins.  Some are more complex than others, but that depends on nothing more than their resonance.  We are all One.  We can sing a different song if we want to.

So, are we the highest expression for the stars?  The most sophisticated expression of God?

We can transform ourselves and our environment. This is why we can create just about anything.  So I ask why do we deprive ourselves of our true essence, that is to imagine and create?  Can we not imagine a world of peace and happiness?  Why do we let ourselves believe that "human nature" is a legitimate excuse not to change?  We are so powerful, so why do we let stupid things like seperation and class stand in our way?

I know why. Because although we ARE God COMING into into the realization of himself, he hasn't actualy realized it yet.

Goodnight! :mushroom2:


Hubris IMO. We are one small part of an ever changing whole with no one part of more significance than another. If all other life forms were self-conscious then they would also believe they were the chosen of "God", or to represent his highest nature.

Many early tribal peoples translated the name of their tribe as "the people" and consider all others as secondary to them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Are we God coming into realization of himself? [Re: Icelander]
    #7919335 -

Icelander, I believe the whole point of the 'we are god experiencing himself subjectively' is that the entire universe, all that exists, IS god. I don't see how that has anything to do with human arrogance. We're still just as tiny a piece of the puzzle as any other component of the universe/consiousness. In my understanding, I find the concept to be a lovely breakdown of the traditional separation of material/spiritual, mundane/holy. If everything is god, then how can we go on hating our bodies, fearing sex, and destroying the land (which is a part of our own body/consciousness)?? I find this particular paradigm more attractive and useful a metaphysical concept than most others. It blurs the boundaries between self and other.

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Re: Are we God coming into realization of himself? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7919792 -

NiamhNyx said:
Quote:
We are God experiencing himself.


This is a lovely myth I find a great deal of pleasure in. It's a more interesting metaphysic than the 'man as machine' model, or the 'god as an angry father' model. I'm down. :thumbup:

edit: That is, I'm down so long is the myth is that the entire universe is 'god' experiencing herself, not just humanity. Ah, how this can bridge into an athiest mysticism... :birthday:


I absolutely think that God is experiencing him/her/itself in all kinds of ways.  Not just within the human psyche.  I don't think we are the singularity atall.  God is experiencing himself by virtue of being an animal, a plant, an insect, a fungu, an extra-terrestrial, a planet, a star, a galaxy, an electron... Who knows?  We are human though, so I am not going to equate my understanding of God through the perspective of a leaf.

I think there are higher evolved beings in the cosmos that have come to realize this power, hence their ability to travel vast distances in space faster than light speed.  We are all unlimited because God is unlimited.


--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

Edited by Ginseng1 (01/23/08 06:38 PM)

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Re: Are we God coming into realization of himself? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7920080 -

entire universe, all that exists, IS god. I don't see how that has anything to do with human arrogance.

How do you know all that exists "IS God"?

Then I'll answer the rest of the question.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Are we God coming into realization of himself? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7920179 -

Quote:
The creative power and genius that we possess leads me to believe so.


Huh?

Huh... what?

Quote:
We are God experiencing himself.


I can detect the originality of your idea since you instantly made god a male. :rolleyes:
What else? Is he also white? :thumbdown:

It was not an attempt to make God male, it was to keep things simple.  No, he's not white, he prefers to wear a technicolour dream coat or something like that...  Replace He with The Universe, She, A Frog, The Almighty Intergallactic Fairy Dust Overlord, Tony the Tiger if you like.

Quote:
Whether it was an accident or not is irrelevant.


Whether or not was WHAT an accident? What's the "it" from your proposition?

Human consciousness connection to All-That-Is

Quote:
Our bodies are a mass of elaborately structured vibrations of energy.


Does the energy have a mass?

Yes

Quote:
This particular order of vibrations is able to do all kinds of neat tricks


Such as?

I dunno.. make figurines out of Lego?

Quote:
And this curious order of vibrations that we embody, in essence, is experiencing nothing more but other vibrations. Some are more complex than others, but that depends on nothing more than their resonance. We are all One. We can sing a different song if we want to.


And their resonance depends on what?

However nature decides to pluck the string.

Quote:
So, are we the highest expression for the stars?


No.

*sigh*

Quote:
The most sophisticated expression of God?


Thinking about the description that you drew here, by god you mean the universe (I am not going to open an argument as to why not simply call it universe but god, but this belongs to another discussion and besides there are other flaws I would like to point out).
You said that "we" are all one.
We who? Humans? Mammals? Living things on the surface of Earth? All the living things from the Universe? The answer is essential to the question: compared to what? Are we the most sophisticated expression of god... compared to... :confused:

We as in humans compared to we as in everything.  Like... me as in my left testicle compared to me as in the couch in the corner of my living room.

Quote:
We can transform ourselves and our environment. This is why we can create just about anything.


Really?
Can we really create just about anything?
And you know this how?

Because of the computer that I use to upload songs onto my Ipod, that I listen to on my way to school on the train, as I look out the window over the bridge, when I see planes in the sky and immense sky-scrapers touching the clouds while I think about the fact that we sent a man to the moon and that I will one day complete my blueprints for a time-machine.  :stoned:

Quote:
So I ask why do we deprive ourselves of our true essence, that is to imagine and create?


How do you know that it is our true essence to imagine and create?

Because if it wasn't for this, we wouldn't understand even the most basic fundamental laws and we wouldn't have created anything that is ours today.

Quote:
Can we not imagine a world of peace and happiness?


Sure we can, I'm doing it all the time. Look around to see the results. :lol:

Try harder then. :smirk:



Quote:
Why do we let ourselves believe that "human nature" is a legitimate excuse not to change?


Ahhh but it's in human nature to change. :smile: Human nature is not static.  :grin:

So we agree, human nature is an illusion.



Quote:
We are so powerful, so why do we let stupid things like seperation and class stand in our way?


Because we learn. Basically I think almost the same thing as you do, only that more realistic. We can pass beyond a problem only in the moment that we understand it. Understanding takes time, as every little issue has a multitude of aspects and meanings.
I do believe that we are on our path to becoming aware, each in his/her own rhythm and at their personal rate. I also learned that UNDERSTANDING happens through reason, not fiction.
Why bring god into all that?

Well you see, I didn't bring God into it because he is already there.  Oh yea, God is a male.  He has a long white beard and purple skin.  He has long sharp nails.. he enjoys reading spider-man comics and he uses cottonell toilet paper.

I would have to agree with "We can pass beyond a problem only in the moment that we understand it".

However, I think we already have the understanding required to come up with solutions, but nobody has balls enough to actually do something about it because they are afraid of sacrifice. There is not enough weight on spirituality and unity today to make us realize that the only thing we have is ourselves.  Nothing else. Sacrificing something to change for the better is the reality.  That is realistic.  It is inevitable. The reality is that somebody is post-poning change in fear of sacrifice.  The day when we will be forced to face this fear anyway.  So I mean, we can talk about this kind of stuff all day long but nothing is going to change until great change is forced upon us.

I don't give a fuck, take away the lavish lifestyle if it brings us all together so we can actually party with all the beautiful people of the world!  All I need is a djembe drum!

Edited by Ginseng1 (01/23/08 07:32 PM)

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Re: Are we God coming into realization of himself? [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7920716 -

This is an idea that is close to my own heart. It is also a theory I will be researching for (part of) an upcoming undergraduate study.

In our experience we may often feel as though we are staring into a mirror. These vibrations, as you might call them, brush up against each other. It is this friction, this meeting, this touch, that creates form.

To me a nondual view of reality is the starting point. With this oneness as our base, why is it that division has happened? Why must we perceive forms and differences. Why is the universe performing this elegant dance, like waves splashing up against each other, instead of being calm and still? Perhaps it is because God has turned his eye towards himself. Thus shattering the oneness, and we are his disjointed fingers trying to put the puzzle back together.

If Ginseng, Markos, or anyone else can help me out by providing where this idea has been covered by other authors, sources, or fields of study, please let me know, as I am going to spend a whole semester of self-directed study researching this idea. Thank you.

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Re: Are we God coming into realization of himself? [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7920745 -

two words...OMEGA POINT


--------------------
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∞ Conscious Clothing for Conscious Minds ∞ Wear a tee , open a mind
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Re: Are we God coming into realization of himself? [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7920905 -

An interesting way of thinking about this 2.

It is not possible for everything to be one thing, ONLY.

Illusion is a nessecary component to the truth behind, what it is to know the truth.

Knowledge is arrived to through distinction.
Distinction through reflection. more than one thing is nessecary for reflection, so if all was one, knowledge would never be arrived to.


AND if Awareness is knowledge of knowing, then we must know more than one thing to know, that we dont not know, (know). Seems like semantics, but knowledge that we know, comes through the knowledge of having been ignorant, we didnt know.

I think this still works with this theory tho, so dont get all excited and ready to dismiss this.

Simply - all that is, must be more than one, if there is to be knowledge available in the universe, that it is not more than one.

So all is not just one, as well as one. Contradiction...contradiction.

Or is it.

Well, if what is can only exist if what is not, IS(presents itself). Then ALL CANNOT just BE ONE.

ALL MUST also be NOT ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR? (yeah why not, i dont like four, but what i like can only be knowledgeable with what i dont like.)

Realistically, a plurality of things doesnt imply intrinsically that there is more than one. Because a process can have more than one part, and still be ONE Process.


_____________________________________________________________________


What does ONENESS mean to a person in a world where there is increasing amounts of reasons to believe in PLURALNESS?


With all the categories of beliefs, values, traditions, colors, shapes and sizes - we seem to be in a world where everything seems intrinsically different.

There are people who literally are holidng at the tip of their toungue and push of a few buttons, the potential to release other people, who they SUPPOSEDLY one with, from an intense suffering that they themselves would feel, had they been handed a similair cirumstance. In the VERY SAME TIME ZONE their exists a person who gives all he can and she can, to aleviate their suffering....

WHERE the FUCK IS the one THING, ONENESS there?

with emphsis on the FUCK....

Both people SEEM like they are doing, the opposite things, with good reason. One is single handedly denying something they seem to have to much of anyway and the other is sacrificing what they are probally going to not have enough of soon enough.

Illusion is nessecary for reality to be known and acted on.

This doesnt discount oneness at all.

Oneness is a form. It is the only form through which we all make decisions about the quality and quantity of the things we will do.

The FORM of is "I WANT".

I WANT to NOT help people who starve.

I WANT to help people who starve.

Share the SAME form, the same oneness that is raved about by mystics all over.

We all do the same thing, because we all do, what we see is best to do.

What makes for the difference, is not a difference in FORM but a difference in Truth.

Bringing it back to ILlusion and Reality?

This GREED most of us hate, has a purpose?

The violence and SELf-rightousness has a purpose?


--------------------
The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....

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Re: Are we God coming into realization of himself? [Re: Icelander]
    #7921191 -

Icelander said:
How do you know all that exists "IS God"?

Then I'll answer the rest of the question.


I don't, no one knows a damn thing. The British Empiricists would agree that it doesn't matter, we ought to just get on with things rather than fretting over the impossibility of conclusive knowledge. :shrug:

1. Just like every other idea or conceptual framework it's nothing but a story, a concept to express insight beyond itself. ('Don't look at my finger, look at the moon.')

2. Everything we tell ourselves is just a story, be it scripture or a scientific theory.

3. The stories/myths we choose to entertain structure our relationship with the world around us and other people, so it makes sense to choose to tell stories that carry within them the sorts of values we identify with, and wish to share with others.

4. This myth completely reframes the concept of 'God' in terms that are both immanent and transcendent, yet not at all alien or separate from ourselves or material reality.

5. A myth like this logically leads to the conceptualization of all life, the universe in totality, as 'one'-- as equal-- and thus eliminates strict 'us' and 'them' categories.

6. Eliminating strict 'us' and 'them' categories tends to lead to the spreading of respect for diversity and the diminishment of ideological/dogmatic conflict.

7. These goals are desirable as they contribute to a more sane, more just world to live in.

I think that this is a reasonable argument in favor of appreciating the myth in question. Take it or leave it if you like, but I have good reason for finding value in this myth.

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Re: Are we God coming into realization of himself? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7925142 -

I have no problem with your myth. I just like to debate.:sun:

And as to the rest of your question I was referring to this question. So, are we the highest expression for the stars? The most sophisticated expression of God?



Edited by Icelander (01/24/08 07:04 PM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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