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Icelander
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What is enlightenment?
#7859175 - 01/10/08 12:23 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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If he's talking about the Buddha, then that's just bullshit. He set the precedent of allowing women to be initiated. At first he wouldn't let them, but he was eventually convinced by Ananda. Hence today there are monks and nuns.
I lifted this from my other thread on Buddha. I've been thinking about this.
A lot of people equate enlightenment with some above average humanity. I really don't think so myself and the above quote is why.
Now here's the Buddha who has recently become enlightened by tremendous personal effort over many years of contemplation, meditation and experience . Yet he had a bias against women that had to be overcome by the arguments of another. Now I would think that allowing women to be nuns (with all the ramifications of that action) would be a no brainer. But not for him. He had to overcome lots of resistance and ignorance in himself.
So what is enlightenment?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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machination
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7859190 - 01/10/08 12:25 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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except tense
-------------------- "Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."
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Lion
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7859338 - 01/10/08 12:59 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Maybe liberation or enlightenment does not necessarily completely change the cultural make-up of an individual, only illuminates the higher self which is beneath and transcendent of those structures and biases. Maybe you're attaching your own cultural values to an experience which is beyond culture.
Many would consider Muhammad's teachings closed-minded and chauvinistic, for example, and by modern standards many of them are; but at the time he was alive, prior to his teachings, women were considered as items for barter between tribes, and when nomadic tribes moved they would just leave behind women who were too weak or no longer served a purpose (i.e. child-rearing). So his teachings were actually an improvement on the status quo.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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dblaney
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7859579 - 01/10/08 01:44 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
A lot of people equate enlightenment with some above average humanity. I really don't think so myself and the above quote is why.
I think this is a tricky issue, because there are different perspectives one can take on this. From the dualistic perspective of ordinary, everyday mind, enlightenment IS something different from 'average humanity' (whatever average humanity means ). I don't know if I'd say it's above average humanity, but it's not the same as ordinary mind.
From the perspective of the awakening/enlightened mind, there is no difference between ordinary mind and the awakening mind. The great Zen master Joshu said "ordinary mind is Tao." Of course, it's easy to say this, but actually seeing this to be true is a whole different story.
As far as the woman thing goes, I agree with Lion, it definitely was a cultural thing. But he didn't let himself become limited by culture.
In the words of Seung Sahn, "Women can't achieve enlightenment."
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Rose
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7859663 - 01/10/08 01:56 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlightenment n.
1a. The act or a means of enlightening. 1b. The state of being enlightened. 2. Enlightenment A philosophical movement of the 18th century that emphasized the use of reason to scrutinize previously accepted doctrines and traditions and that brought about many humanitarian reforms. Used with the. 3. Buddhism & Hinduism. A blessed state in which the individual transcends desire and suffering and attains Nirvana.
Let's just skip the first definitions (1a and 1b). I don't like it when a dictionary uses the word it is defining in its own definition.
As for the next two definitions (which I like)... the more I think about them, the more similar they become. The Enlightenment Movement and Zen Enlightenment are both quite similar... and they BOTH have to do with the amount of knowledge a person possesses.
Also, the more I think about it... the more I think, "Enlightenment" is synonymous with the word, "Wisdom".
If someone knows MUCH MORE about something than YOU do... you may believe they are enlightened.
Enlightenment is relative. One person's enlightened master is another person's equal... and yet another person's phony hack.
The most enlightened people I know have never claimed to be enlightened. Only people around them make THAT claim.
It is relative.
Your story reminds me of one I heard about Ghandi.
Ghandi was introduced to a young man and his son. The young man asked Ghandi to tell his son not to eat candy because candy is bad for him.
Ghandi told the young man to wait a day, then ask him the same question a second time.
The following day the man returned with his son and asked the same question of Ghandi and THIS time Ghandi told the man's son that he shouldn't eat candy. When the man asked Ghandi why he had to wait a day before Ghandi would advise his son... Ghandi replied, "Yesterday... I still ate candy too."
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Rose]
#7859736 - 01/10/08 02:09 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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"Enlightenment" is synonymous with the word, "Wisdom".
Wisdom being smarts in action.
I tend to agree with you.
I tend to think that last definition is incorrect at least according to what I believe the Buddha taught. Enlightenment comes not from absence of desire but instead absence of attachment. I believe this is attainable to a high degree by anyone willing to work on it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Rose
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7859761 - 01/10/08 02:13 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I tend to think that last definition is incorrect at least according to what I believe the Buddha taught. Enlightenment comes not from absence of desire but instead absence of attachment. I believe this is attainable to a high degree by anyone willing to work on it.
I draw similar conclusions... but reading translations of what Buddha said and figuring out what he MEANT when he said it, is an arduous task... at best.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Icelander
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Rose]
#7859776 - 01/10/08 02:15 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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I think absence of desire would not be possible for any human. One would find themselves at a complete standstill.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7859804 - 01/10/08 02:20 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I think absence of desire would not be possible for any human. One would find themselves at a complete standstill.
I think dehydration would strike first.

Dictionary.com usually words their definitions better... but they are hardly perfect. I WISH the Oxford English Dictionary was free online.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Philanthropist
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Rose]
#7859929 - 01/10/08 02:42 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Enlightenment is plato's allegory of the cave. Just be happy and you'll be enlightened. Do the right thing.
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WhiskeyClone
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7860133 - 01/10/08 03:20 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Now here's the Buddha who has recently become enlightened by tremendous personal effort over many years of contemplation, meditation and experience . Yet he had a bias against women that had to be overcome by the arguments of another.
Was his bias overcome by the argument of another? Or was it also overcome by his own contemplation and meditation on the subject, inspired by someone else's opinion?
Quote:
So what is enlightenment?
"The end of suffering" seems to work for me, with the caveat that all suffering stems from attachment to desires. I don't know if that necessarily means an enlightened individual is free of opinions.
Quote:
Now I would think that allowing women to be nuns (with all the ramifications of that action) would be a no brainer. But not for him. He had to overcome lots of resistance and ignorance in himself.
Maybe if you lived 2500 years ago it wouldn't be a no brainer. I'm not sure what it was like to live in that time, and what sort of doctrine Siddhartha Gautama received during his upbringing. Our personal realities are each created from nothing but our own respective experiences.
We are all continually overcoming our ignorance (or letting it overcome us in some cases ) and I don't think enlightenment is supposed to be what happens when there is no ignorance left to overcome.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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jonathanseagull
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7860344 - 01/10/08 04:14 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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The bias against women was a cultural obstacle, not a personal bias. This is the same reason why when women were finally allowed to renounce that they had to follow many more rules than males, and could be punished for things the males did. It was so the public would "buy" it.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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jonathanseagull
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Also, it was stated in one of the Theravada sutras that nirvana (enlightenment) is the absense of the three fires, which are aversion, greed, and delusion.
This would be the Buddhist definition. This word is kind of like "god". Everyone can't agree on a definition.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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Gomp
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"Enlightenment is that which the one attaining it, will know what is!"
Not claiming that I am, but it can be hard for an enlightened one to teach one who is not, what exactly it is or is not. Not only cause it is individual.. ..but also cause it is kind of like trying to learn someone speak Chinese in French.. Sure, it is possible.. But, it could be easier to learn from kind, and self! (Other Chinese speakers. )
Edited by Gomp (01/10/08 04:41 PM)
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Icelander
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Quote:
jonathanseagull said: The bias against women was a cultural obstacle, not a personal bias. This is the same reason why when women were finally allowed to renounce that they had to follow many more rules than males, and could be punished for things the males did. It was so the public would "buy" it.
Cultural bias if acted on is personal. He had the bias. It is interesting to me that all these liberated ones seem bent not telling the truth so the common man will accept certain things. Kind of seems like they are interested in starting a religion.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7860968 - 01/10/08 06:40 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I think absence of desire would not be possible for any human. One would find themselves at a complete standstill.
Unless one then lived to only fulfill the desires and needs of others. However, based on your theory of self-interest this would be impossible. Myself, I am not so sure.
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Lion
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Quote:
Unless one then lived to only fulfill the desires and needs of others. However, based on your theory of self-interest this would be impossible. Myself, I am not so sure.
Being free of desire, why would one work to satisfy the desires of others? Needs are one thing, desires another. Eh?
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Lion]
#7861005 - 01/10/08 06:47 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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The way I see it, the two are not that separate. If one is in an absence of desire and someone asks me to open a window, I would just get up to do it, not having any desire of my own. That might sound like depersonalization or might sound like it has some sort of underlying motive but I think one would just do it because that would be the thing to do, one would be called to action. Unless we are going to define what someone needs as something very absolute like they need to attain liberation like myself and all my actions would reflect that goal? Let me know what you think.
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MushroomTrip
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Your interest would be to help the other person (yes to make them feel good - but only because it makes you feel good to make him/her feel good ). Would you do it if your interest was to leave the window closed? Of course, you could argue and say: I didn't have any intention at all. Is it really so?  Do we really do ANYTHING at all without having a bit of intention?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
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I think Icelander may be right on this one. We might be completely unable to do anything.. I think I've experienced this before.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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That is also debatable, let's try to keep in mind that we ARE highly adaptable beings, more than we might even imagine. Where I was getting at was that these notions of comfort advancement are all relative, this is why those who base their happiness on them usually end up being confused and suffer from anxiety. Perhaps happiness resides somewhere else.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
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[Oedipus]
What do you mean? You know of something but refuse to speak. Tell us, you villain, tell us, and do not stand there quietly unmoved and balking at the issue.
[/Oedipus]
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Perhaps Happiness occurs when we realize that it depends solely on ourselves.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Did I ever give you the impression that I am enlightened?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Don't flatter yourself
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7861452 - 01/10/08 08:23 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
jonathanseagull said: The bias against women was a cultural obstacle, not a personal bias. This is the same reason why when women were finally allowed to renounce that they had to follow many more rules than males, and could be punished for things the males did. It was so the public would "buy" it.
Cultural bias if acted on is personal. He had the bias. It is interesting to me that all these liberated ones seem bent not telling the truth so the common man will accept certain things. Kind of seems like they are interested in starting a religion.
Maybe so. If I felt I had a methodology to free everyone from suffering, I'd let it slowly seep in rather than try to push it down someone's throat only for it to be rejected on the spot. It's much like Muhammad using the Ka'aba, which was a pagan monument, as one of the main pillars of Islam. You do what you need to do for people to feel comfortable with your new message. Religion doesn't have to be a dirty word. Bad apples spoil the bunch.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7861495 - 01/10/08 08:31 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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In my view enlightenment is the total awareness and acceptance of what is. No matter how subjective truth is, when one comes into this state then one is as close to the truth as one can be.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (01/11/08 07:23 AM)
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AlteredAgain
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i feel acceptance to be a very essential state because it dissolves the resistances that are caused by one's past experiences, as well as the kind of fantasies that we project into an unclear or perhaps even non-existent future.
In my experience this brings awareness directly into the here and now where in a sense all mystifications of the mind are being swept away which really only leaves awareness itself.
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Orbus
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An enlightened mind is simply one that knows exactly what it is. Enlightenment is not the addition of any new knowledge, but the seeing through of certain knowledge or assumptions, specifically the view of a separate self, as false.
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------------------------------------------------------ Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts
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psyka
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7862433 - 01/10/08 10:55 PM (16 years, 22 days ago) |
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Icelander,
One time someone asked me what music I liked, and I habitually responded "I like mostly rock n' roll, but I like pretty much anything... except country music. Its too gawky and boring."
But the truth is, I had not listened to it.
Instead, I was thinking to myself of reasons why I did not like it... I had begun taking country music personally... lol.
With all of that uncontrolled verbalization in my mind, I created an imaginary barrier that sheltered me from what I might expect as suffering (country music). And why would I perceive country music as potential suffering? Because my peers once upon a time told me that it was gawky and boring, made fun of it, and made fun of those who listened to it. And so I rejected it, and pretended to make some sort of agreement with an imaginary person in my head of why I am justified in rejecting it.
Along with this mental verbalization comes tension. Tension coiled up in the physical body, and tension inside of the mind. When we become mentally and/or physically tense, our minds become burdened, heavy, and closed. Unable to see clearly; like wandering in a thick fog. However, when you are relaxed and poised, you feel happy, light, and loving... and useful. You see things more clearly, and understand how we cause our own suffering by playing a silly I-game... taking things personally. We strangle ourselves by being preoccupied in this unending game. The Buddha taught how to let go.
The Buddha went around begging for food, only eating what others offered. He did this for many various reasons. He believed compassion was an exercise that teaches selflessness, unity, and helps spread love (good karma). He also understood that by not accumulating resources for himself, that more people who needed them would be able to use them.
If you really read about Buddhism... not the mainstream commentaries commenting about what someone else read about Buddhism, then I think you might see it in a different light. A lot of people practice Buddhism differently, and over the years there is a lot confusion about what the Buddha found for himself, and what he actually taught to others. I had the fortune of being able to listen to a very wise monk read the traditional sutta's to me... he did not interpret the words at all (in fact, he had a dictionary on hand in case I didn't understand a word)... he just read the sutta's out loud - the way they were intended to be heard. And it changed my whole perspective on what Buddhism actually is, and what the Buddha did... to me its a harmonious way of living and thats all. When you become in balance inside and outside, you achieve the equanimous state of mind termed "enlightenment."
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: psyka]
#7863521 - 01/11/08 03:16 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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enlightented mind is freed of unnecessary entanglements wisdom is more easily attained moment to moment total knowledge and correctness is never attained, nor attainable however this is most important recovery from error is more accessible and the enlightened person having been wrong and righted itself, does not punish itself or others for having been wrong
just getting on with it is very much part of the stream thing.
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_ 🧠 _
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Bard
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7863696 - 01/11/08 05:56 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Interesting...
I think, that maybe the Buddha attained enlightenment. Then he tried to show a way for the other humans, how they can attain it too. He couldn't make anybody enlightened by a magic touch or a magic word, he could only show them a way (maybe one way out of many). And maybe he even knew it that there other ways, and that his way will not work for everybody... For example he had doubts that women can make use of his way... But eventually they convinced him, or maybe he just allowed them to try it if they want it so much. So enlightenment is personal, there are many roads to it, and you can only show your way to other people, and they either can walk on it, or not...
As far as this goes, enlightenment can still be a delusion...
-------------------- So dreaming let's you know reality exists.
I don't belive. I fear.
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Boots
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Bard]
#7863867 - 01/11/08 07:21 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Enlightenment could be how you perceive it. According to definition, one would have to be believe in nirvana in order to achieve it. In my opinion, enlightenment is being at peace with the way things are: having the serenity to accept the things I can't change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
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machination
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Boots]
#7863870 - 01/11/08 07:24 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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enlightenment Is the true goal of alchemy,
some love voodoo
-------------------- "Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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If one is in an absence of desire and someone asks me to open a window, I would just get up to do it, not having any desire of my own. That might sound like depersonalization or might sound like it has some sort of underlying motive but I think one would just do it because that would be the thing to do,
I see your statement as illogical and in denial of your true humanity.because that would be the thing to do,Right here you give your personal motive away. You decided that it is the "right thing to do" that's your personal belief system. (It might not be the right thing to do however for many reasons that come to my mind) You strive always to uphold your beliefs of what is good or right. This is obvious although elusive for you it seems.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: psyka]
#7864100 - 01/11/08 09:32 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
psyka said: Icelander,
One time someone asked me what music I liked, and I habitually responded "I like mostly rock n' roll, but I like pretty much anything... except country music. Its too gawky and boring."
But the truth is, I had not listened to it.
Instead, I was thinking to myself of reasons why I did not like it... I had begun taking country music personally... lol.
With all of that uncontrolled verbalization in my mind, I created an imaginary barrier that sheltered me from what I might expect as suffering (country music). And why would I perceive country music as potential suffering? Because my peers once upon a time told me that it was gawky and boring, made fun of it, and made fun of those who listened to it. And so I rejected it, and pretended to make some sort of agreement with an imaginary person in my head of why I am justified in rejecting it.
Along with this mental verbalization comes tension. Tension coiled up in the physical body, and tension inside of the mind. When we become mentally and/or physically tense, our minds become burdened, heavy, and closed. Unable to see clearly; like wandering in a thick fog. However, when you are relaxed and poised, you feel happy, light, and loving... and useful. You see things more clearly, and understand how we cause our own suffering by playing a silly I-game... taking things personally. We strangle ourselves by being preoccupied in this unending game. The Buddha taught how to let go.
The Buddha went around begging for food, only eating what others offered. He did this for many various reasons. He believed compassion was an exercise that teaches selflessness, unity, and helps spread love (good karma). He also understood that by not accumulating resources for himself, that more people who needed them would be able to use them.
If you really read about Buddhism... not the mainstream commentaries commenting about what someone else read about Buddhism, then I think you might see it in a different light. A lot of people practice Buddhism differently, and over the years there is a lot confusion about what the Buddha found for himself, and what he actually taught to others. I had the fortune of being able to listen to a very wise monk read the traditional sutta's to me... he did not interpret the words at all (in fact, he had a dictionary on hand in case I didn't understand a word)... he just read the sutta's out loud - the way they were intended to be heard. And it changed my whole perspective on what Buddhism actually is, and what the Buddha did... to me its a harmonious way of living and thats all. When you become in balance inside and outside, you achieve the equanimous state of mind termed "enlightenment."
I fail to see what this post has to do with me? Being a fan of some of what he said myself. What are you saying that I am saying?
exercise that teaches selflessness, If you point is that selflessness is a possibility then of course I disagree. That would be impossible.
Edited by Icelander (01/11/08 09:34 AM)
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7864106 - 01/11/08 09:33 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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What does opening a window have to do with good and right? You're projecting a personality on to me that is not necessarily accurate. In a de-personalized or trans-personalized state, I think it would be possible to base our actions on something which doesn't adhere to human logic. Please demonstrate to me how I am wrong in my thinking, I'm open to being wrong on this.
Is it completely impossible to act without belief?
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Icelander
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I think it would be possible to base our actions on something which doesn't adhere to human logic.
Impossible my friend and you can't give me one example of it.
My last post demonstrated to the best of my ability the fallacy of your position. You would never open a window for someone if you didn't consider it "the thing to do" as you say. How about I ask you to kill someone. Will you just do that also?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7864129 - 01/11/08 09:40 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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You're right, I can't give you an example. Until I can think of one, I'll have to concede to your argument.
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Icelander
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In the mean time will you get me a beer?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7864138 - 01/11/08 09:43 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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I thought you were going to congratulate me on being humble 
Humbleness is not weakness! I am a warrior too!
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Icelander
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If you need congrats then it is not humility. But you took a step in the right direction by bowing to my superior wisdom.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7864166 - 01/11/08 09:51 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Because my humbleness was not rewarded I shall never back down from an argument again
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eve69
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7864173 - 01/11/08 09:52 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
If he's talking about the Buddha, then that's just bullshit. He set the precedent of allowing women to be initiated. At first he wouldn't let them, but he was eventually convinced by Ananda. Hence today there are monks and nuns.
I lifted this from my other thread on Buddha. I've been thinking about this.
A lot of people equate enlightenment with some above average humanity. I really don't think so myself and the above quote is why.
Now here's the Buddha who has recently become enlightened by tremendous personal effort over many years of contemplation, meditation and experience . Yet he had a bias against women that had to be overcome by the arguments of another. Now I would think that allowing women to be nuns (with all the ramifications of that action) would be a no brainer. But not for him. He had to overcome lots of resistance and ignorance in himself.
So what is enlightenment?
Buddha had to start with something people could understand. No vagabond would take women on the road. It wasn't until enough women made for having an official womens order that Buddha conceeded that it was needed.
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Icelander
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: eve69]
#7864178 - 01/11/08 09:55 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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No vagabond would take women on the road. The Icelander does. Especially pretty ones.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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eve69
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: eve69]
#7864180 - 01/11/08 09:57 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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the world could blow apart in a fiction worthy wind it wouldn't mean a thing now that you're here...
-------------------- ...or something
Edited by eve69 (01/11/08 10:08 AM)
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Icelander
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: Because my humbleness was not rewarded I shall never back down from an argument again
Well now that isn't very Buddha like, is it? But here is a more honest feeling from you as you really are in your humanity (at least in part) and I do honor that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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machination
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7864223 - 01/11/08 10:08 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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zhuman eyez
"the middle way"
theres a light on in the attic dear eliza
-------------------- "Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."
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psyka
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7864337 - 01/11/08 10:35 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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In each action you do, a degree of selfishness and a degree of selflessness exists. It doesn't revolve around you unless you think it does.
And the post is titled what is enlightenment? The answer is neither subjective or objective, however I was giving you my conditioned opinion. What did you expect? A factual statistic?
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

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Icelander
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: psyka]
#7864508 - 01/11/08 11:19 AM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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a degree of selfishness and a degree of selflessness
You need to provide one example of selflessness for me to accept that as a possibility. No one has done that yet.
The answer is neither subjective or objective,
Now you really have me confused.
What did you expect? A factual statistic?
Just some logical debate although facts never hurt.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#7866903 - 01/11/08 09:35 PM (16 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I think it would be possible to base our actions on something which doesn't adhere to human logic.
Impossible my friend and you can't give me one example of it.
My last post demonstrated to the best of my ability the fallacy of your position. You would never open a window for someone if you didn't consider it "the thing to do" as you say. How about I ask you to kill someone. Will you just do that also?
nothing we do is based upon LOGIC everything we do is associative - memory and training in response to signals and triggers. LOGIC is not associative it is rules based- it is a fallacy to imagine we are rules based.
even our morality is associative. associative processing is the essence of archetypes. this with that, not this because of that.
of course, many pretend to be logical, we have excellent role models who are great reasoners (they put on a very dignified show) mostly in literature or television like sherlock holmes and Mr. Spock.
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