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A lot of people equate enlightenment with some above average humanity. I really don't think so myself and the above quote is why.

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I think this is a tricky issue, because there are different perspectives one can take on this. From the dualistic perspective of ordinary, everyday mind, enlightenment IS something different from 'average humanity' (whatever average humanity means ). I don't know if I'd say it's above average humanity, but it's not the same as ordinary mind.

From the perspective of the awakening/enlightened mind, there is no difference between ordinary mind and the awakening mind. The great Zen master Joshu said "ordinary mind is Tao." Of course, it's easy to say this, but actually seeing this to be true is a whole different story.

As far as the woman thing goes, I agree with Lion, it definitely was a cultural thing. But he didn't let himself become limited by culture.

In the words of Seung Sahn, "Women can't achieve enlightenment."

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Enlightenment
n.


1a. The act or a means of enlightening.
1b. The state of being enlightened.

2. Enlightenment A philosophical movement of the 18th century that emphasized the use of reason to scrutinize previously accepted doctrines and traditions and that brought about many humanitarian reforms. Used with the.

3. Buddhism & Hinduism. A blessed state in which the individual transcends desire and suffering and attains Nirvana.

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Icelander said:

I tend to think that last definition is incorrect at least according to what I believe the Buddha taught. Enlightenment comes not from absence of desire but instead absence of attachment. I believe this is attainable to a high degree by anyone willing to work on it.

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Icelander said:

I think absence of desire would not be possible for any human. One would find themselves at a complete standstill.

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I think dehydration would strike first.



Dictionary.com usually words their definitions better... but they are hardly perfect. I WISH the Oxford English Dictionary was free online.

Icelander said:

Now here's the Buddha who has recently become enlightened by tremendous personal effort over many years of contemplation, meditation and experience . Yet he had a bias against women that had to be overcome by the arguments of another.

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So what is enlightenment?

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Now I would think that allowing women to be nuns (with all the ramifications of that action) would be a no brainer. But not for him. He had to overcome lots of resistance and ignorance in himself.

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Maybe if you lived 2500 years ago it wouldn't be a no brainer.  I'm not sure what it was like to live in that time, and what sort of doctrine Siddhartha Gautama received during his upbringing.  Our personal realities are each created from nothing but our own respective experiences.

We are all continually overcoming our ignorance (or letting it overcome us in some cases ) and I don't think enlightenment is supposed to be what happens when there is no ignorance left to overcome.

jonathanseagull said:

The bias against women was a cultural obstacle, not a personal bias.  This is the same reason why when women were finally allowed to renounce that they had to follow many more rules than males, and could be punished for things the males did.  It was so the public would "buy" it.

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Cultural bias if acted on is personal.  He had the bias. It is interesting to me that all these liberated ones seem bent not telling the truth so the common man will accept certain things. Kind of seems like they are interested in starting a religion.

Icelander said:

I think absence of desire would not be possible for any human. One would find themselves at a complete standstill.

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Unless one then lived to only fulfill the desires and needs of others. However, based on your theory of self-interest this would be impossible. Myself, I am not so sure.

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Icelander said:

jonathanseagull said:

The bias against women was a cultural obstacle, not a personal bias.  This is the same reason why when women were finally allowed to renounce that they had to follow many more rules than males, and could be punished for things the males did.  It was so the public would "buy" it.

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Cultural bias if acted on is personal.  He had the bias. It is interesting to me that all these liberated ones seem bent not telling the truth so the common man will accept certain things. Kind of seems like they are interested in starting a religion.

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psyka said:

Icelander,

One time someone asked me what music I liked, and I habitually responded "I like mostly rock n' roll, but I like pretty much anything... except country music. Its too gawky and boring."

But the truth is, I had not listened to it.

Instead, I was thinking to myself of reasons why I did not like it... I had begun taking country music personally... lol.

With all of that uncontrolled verbalization in my mind, I created an imaginary barrier that sheltered me from what I might expect as suffering (country music). And why would I perceive country music as potential suffering? Because my peers once upon a time told me that it was gawky and boring, made fun of it, and made fun of those who listened to it. And so I rejected it, and pretended to make some sort of agreement with an imaginary person in my head of why I am justified in rejecting it.

Along with this mental verbalization comes tension. Tension coiled up in the physical body, and tension inside of the mind. When we become mentally and/or physically tense, our minds become burdened, heavy, and closed. Unable to see clearly; like wandering in a thick fog. However, when you are relaxed and poised, you feel happy, light, and loving... and useful. You see things more clearly, and understand how we cause our own suffering by playing a silly I-game... taking things personally. We strangle ourselves by being preoccupied in this unending game. The Buddha taught how to let go.

The Buddha went around begging for food, only eating what others offered. He did this for many various reasons. He believed compassion was an exercise that teaches selflessness, unity, and helps spread love (good karma). He also understood that by not accumulating resources for himself, that more people who needed them would be able to use them.

If you really read about Buddhism... not the mainstream commentaries commenting about what someone else read about Buddhism, then I think you might see it in a different light. A lot of people practice Buddhism differently, and over the years there is a lot confusion about what the Buddha found for himself, and what he actually taught to others. I had the fortune of being able to listen to a very wise monk read the traditional sutta's to me... he did not interpret the words at all (in fact, he had a dictionary on hand in case I didn't understand a word)... he just read the sutta's out loud - the way they were intended to be heard. And it changed my whole perspective on what Buddhism actually is, and what the Buddha did... to me its a harmonious way of living and thats all. When you become in balance inside and outside, you achieve the equanimous state of mind termed "enlightenment."

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I fail to see what this post has to do with me? Being a fan of some of what he said myself. What are you saying that I am saying?

exercise that teaches selflessness, If you point is that selflessness is a possibility then of course I disagree. That would be impossible.

Icelander said:

If he's talking about the Buddha, then that's just bullshit. He set the precedent of allowing women to be initiated. At first he wouldn't let them, but he was eventually convinced by Ananda. Hence today there are monks and nuns.


I lifted this from my other thread on Buddha. I've been thinking about this.

A lot of people equate enlightenment with some above average humanity. I really don't think so myself and the above quote is why.

Now here's the Buddha who has recently become enlightened by tremendous personal effort over many years of contemplation, meditation and experience . Yet he had a bias against women that had to be overcome by the arguments of another. Now I would think that allowing women to be nuns (with all the ramifications of that action) would be a no brainer. But not for him. He had to overcome lots of resistance and ignorance in himself.

So what is enlightenment?

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EternalCowabunga said:

Because my humbleness was not rewarded I shall never back down from an argument again

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Well now that isn't very Buddha like, is it? But here is a more honest feeling from you as you really are in your humanity (at least in part) and I do honor that.

Icelander said:

I think it would be possible to base our actions on something which doesn't adhere to human logic.

Impossible my friend and you can't give me one example of it.

My last post demonstrated to the best of my ability the fallacy of your position. You would never open a window for someone if you didn't consider it "the thing to do" as you say. How about I ask you to kill someone. Will you just do that also?

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