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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7861043 - 01/10/08 06:56 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

That is also debatable, let's try to keep in mind that we ARE highly adaptable beings, more than we might even imagine.
Where I was getting at was that these notions of comfort advancement are all relative, this is why those who base their happiness on them usually end up being confused and suffer from anxiety.
Perhaps happiness resides somewhere else. :sherlock:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Registered: 04/04/05
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7861078 - 01/10/08 07:04 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

[Oedipus]

What do you mean?
You know of something but refuse to speak.
Tell us, you villain, tell us, and do not stand there quietly
unmoved and balking at the issue.

[/Oedipus]


--------------------


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7861125 - 01/10/08 07:13 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Perhaps Happiness occurs when we realize that it depends solely on ourselves. :satansmoking:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7861141 - 01/10/08 07:18 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Oh wow, HOW ENLIGHTENING :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

:tongue:


--------------------


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7861160 - 01/10/08 07:23 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Did I ever give you the impression that I am enlightened? :shocked:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7861180 - 01/10/08 07:27 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Don't flatter yourself :lol:


--------------------


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #7861452 - 01/10/08 08:23 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

jonathanseagull said:
The bias against women was a cultural obstacle, not a personal bias.  This is the same reason why when women were finally allowed to renounce that they had to follow many more rules than males, and could be punished for things the males did.  It was so the public would "buy" it.




Cultural bias if acted on is personal.  He had the bias. It is interesting to me that all these liberated ones seem bent not telling the truth so the common man will accept certain things. Kind of seems like they are interested in starting a religion.:whoa::lol:




Maybe so.  If I felt I had a methodology to free everyone from suffering, I'd let it slowly seep in rather than try to push it down someone's throat only for it to be rejected on the spot.  It's much like Muhammad using the Ka'aba, which was a pagan monument, as one of the main pillars of Islam.  You do what you need to do for people to feel comfortable with your new message.  Religion doesn't have to be a dirty word.  Bad apples spoil the bunch.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #7861495 - 01/10/08 08:31 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

In my view enlightenment is the total awareness and acceptance of what is. No matter how subjective truth is, when one comes into this state then one is as close to the truth as one can be.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (01/11/08 07:23 AM)


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7861733 - 01/10/08 09:06 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

i feel acceptance to be a very essential state because it dissolves the resistances that are caused by one's past experiences, as well as the kind of fantasies that we project into an unclear or perhaps even non-existent future.

In my experience this brings awareness directly into the here and now where in a sense all mystifications of the mind are being swept away which really only leaves awareness itself.


--------------------


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OfflineOrbus
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #7861959 - 01/10/08 09:34 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

An enlightened mind is simply one that knows exactly what it is. Enlightenment is not the addition of any new knowledge, but the seeing through of certain knowledge or assumptions, specifically the view of a separate self, as false.


--------------------

------------------------------------------------------
Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #7862433 - 01/10/08 10:55 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Icelander,

One time someone asked me what music I liked, and I habitually responded "I like mostly rock n' roll, but I like pretty much anything... except country music. Its too gawky and boring."

But the truth is, I had not listened to it.

Instead, I was thinking to myself of reasons why I did not like it... I had begun taking country music personally... lol.

With all of that uncontrolled verbalization in my mind, I created an imaginary barrier that sheltered me from what I might expect as suffering (country music). And why would I perceive country music as potential suffering? Because my peers once upon a time told me that it was gawky and boring, made fun of it, and made fun of those who listened to it. And so I rejected it, and pretended to make some sort of agreement with an imaginary person in my head of why I am justified in rejecting it.

Along with this mental verbalization comes tension. Tension coiled up in the physical body, and tension inside of the mind. When we become mentally and/or physically tense, our minds become burdened, heavy, and closed. Unable to see clearly; like wandering in a thick fog. However, when you are relaxed and poised, you feel happy, light, and loving... and useful. You see things more clearly, and understand how we cause our own suffering by playing a silly I-game... taking things personally. We strangle ourselves by being preoccupied in this unending game. The Buddha taught how to let go.

The Buddha went around begging for food, only eating what others offered. He did this for many various reasons. He believed compassion was an exercise that teaches selflessness, unity, and helps spread love (good karma). He also understood that by not accumulating resources for himself, that more people who needed them would be able to use them.

If you really read about Buddhism... not the mainstream commentaries commenting about what someone else read about Buddhism, then I think you might see it in a different light. A lot of people practice Buddhism differently, and over the years there is a lot confusion about what the Buddha found for himself, and what he actually taught to others. I had the fortune of being able to listen to a very wise monk read the traditional sutta's to me... he did not interpret the words at all (in fact, he had a dictionary on hand in case I didn't understand a word)... he just read the sutta's out loud - the way they were intended to be heard. And it changed my whole perspective on what Buddhism actually is, and what the Buddha did... to me its a harmonious way of living and thats all. When you become in balance inside and outside, you achieve the equanimous state of mind termed "enlightenment."


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: psyka]
    #7863521 - 01/11/08 03:16 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

enlightented mind is freed of unnecessary entanglements
wisdom is more easily attained moment to moment
total knowledge and correctness is never attained, nor attainable
however
this is most important
recovery from error is more accessible
and
the enlightened person having been wrong and righted itself,
does not punish itself or others for having been wrong

just getting on with it is very much part of the stream thing.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineBard
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #7863696 - 01/11/08 05:56 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Interesting...

I think, that maybe the Buddha attained enlightenment. Then he tried to show a way for the other humans, how they can attain it too. He couldn't make anybody enlightened by a magic touch or a magic word, he could only show them a way (maybe one way out of many). And maybe he even knew it that there other ways, and that his way will not work for everybody... For example he had doubts that women can make use of his way... But eventually they convinced him, or maybe he just allowed them to try it if they want it so much. So enlightenment is personal, there are many roads to it, and you can only show your way to other people, and they either can walk on it, or not...

As far as this goes, enlightenment can still be a delusion... :shrug:


--------------------
So dreaming let's you know reality exists.



I don't belive. I fear.


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OfflineBoots
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Bard]
    #7863867 - 01/11/08 07:21 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Enlightenment could be how you perceive it. According to definition, one would have to be believe in nirvana in order to achieve it. In my opinion, enlightenment is being at peace with the way things are: having the serenity to accept the things I can't change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.


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Invisiblemachination
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Loc: Hringhorni
Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Boots]
    #7863870 - 01/11/08 07:24 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

enlightenment Is the true goal of alchemy,

some
love
voodoo


--------------------
"Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7864090 - 01/11/08 09:29 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

If one is in an absence of desire and someone asks me to open a window, I would just get up to do it, not having any desire of my own. That might sound like depersonalization or might sound like it has some sort of underlying motive but I think one would just do it because that would be the thing to do,

I see your statement as illogical and in denial of your true humanity.because that would be the thing to do,Right here you give your personal motive away. You decided that it is the "right thing to do" that's your personal belief system. (It might not be the right thing to do however for many reasons that come to my mind) You strive always to uphold your beliefs of what is good or right. This is obvious although elusive for you it seems.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: psyka]
    #7864100 - 01/11/08 09:32 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

psyka said:
Icelander,

One time someone asked me what music I liked, and I habitually responded "I like mostly rock n' roll, but I like pretty much anything... except country music. Its too gawky and boring."

But the truth is, I had not listened to it.

Instead, I was thinking to myself of reasons why I did not like it... I had begun taking country music personally... lol.

With all of that uncontrolled verbalization in my mind, I created an imaginary barrier that sheltered me from what I might expect as suffering (country music). And why would I perceive country music as potential suffering? Because my peers once upon a time told me that it was gawky and boring, made fun of it, and made fun of those who listened to it. And so I rejected it, and pretended to make some sort of agreement with an imaginary person in my head of why I am justified in rejecting it.

Along with this mental verbalization comes tension. Tension coiled up in the physical body, and tension inside of the mind. When we become mentally and/or physically tense, our minds become burdened, heavy, and closed. Unable to see clearly; like wandering in a thick fog. However, when you are relaxed and poised, you feel happy, light, and loving... and useful. You see things more clearly, and understand how we cause our own suffering by playing a silly I-game... taking things personally. We strangle ourselves by being preoccupied in this unending game. The Buddha taught how to let go.

The Buddha went around begging for food, only eating what others offered. He did this for many various reasons. He believed compassion was an exercise that teaches selflessness, unity, and helps spread love (good karma). He also understood that by not accumulating resources for himself, that more people who needed them would be able to use them.

If you really read about Buddhism... not the mainstream commentaries commenting about what someone else read about Buddhism, then I think you might see it in a different light. A lot of people practice Buddhism differently, and over the years there is a lot confusion about what the Buddha found for himself, and what he actually taught to others. I had the fortune of being able to listen to a very wise monk read the traditional sutta's to me... he did not interpret the words at all (in fact, he had a dictionary on hand in case I didn't understand a word)... he just read the sutta's out loud - the way they were intended to be heard. And it changed my whole perspective on what Buddhism actually is, and what the Buddha did... to me its a harmonious way of living and thats all. When you become in balance inside and outside, you achieve the equanimous state of mind termed "enlightenment."




I fail to see what this post has to do with me?:confused: Being a fan of some of what he said myself. What are you saying that I am saying?

exercise that teaches selflessness, If you point is that selflessness is a possibility then of course I disagree. That would be impossible.


Edited by Icelander (01/11/08 09:34 AM)


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #7864106 - 01/11/08 09:33 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

What does opening a window have to do with good and right? You're projecting a personality on to me that is not necessarily accurate. In a de-personalized or trans-personalized state, I think it would be possible to base our actions on something which doesn't adhere to human logic. Please demonstrate to me how I am wrong in my thinking, I'm open to being wrong on this.

Is it completely impossible to act without belief?


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7864121 - 01/11/08 09:38 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

I think it would be possible to base our actions on something which doesn't adhere to human logic.

Impossible my friend and you can't give me one example of it.

My last post demonstrated to the best of my ability the fallacy of your position. You would never open a window for someone if you didn't consider it "the thing to do" as you say. How about I ask you to kill someone. Will you just do that also?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #7864129 - 01/11/08 09:40 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

You're right, I can't give you an example. Until I can think of one, I'll have to concede to your argument. :mypleasure:


--------------------


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