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InvisibleIcelander
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What is enlightenment?
    #7859175 - 01/10/08 12:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)


If he's talking about the Buddha, then that's just bullshit. He set the precedent of allowing women to be initiated. At first he wouldn't let them, but he was eventually convinced by Ananda. Hence today there are monks and nuns.


I lifted this from my other thread on Buddha. I've been thinking about this.

A lot of people equate enlightenment with some above average humanity. I really don't think so myself and the above quote is why.

Now here's the Buddha who has recently become enlightened by tremendous personal effort over many years of contemplation, meditation and experience . Yet he had a bias against women that had to be overcome by the arguments of another. Now I would think that allowing women to be nuns (with all the ramifications of that action) would be a no brainer. But not for him. He had to overcome lots of resistance and ignorance in himself.

So what is enlightenment?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblemachination
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Loc: Hringhorni
Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #7859190 - 01/10/08 12:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

except tense


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"Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."

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OfflineLion
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #7859338 - 01/10/08 12:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe liberation or enlightenment does not necessarily completely change the cultural make-up of an individual, only illuminates the higher self which is beneath and transcendent of those structures and biases. Maybe you're attaching your own cultural values to an experience which is beyond culture.

Many would consider Muhammad's teachings closed-minded and chauvinistic, for example, and by modern standards many of them are; but at the time he was alive, prior to his teachings, women were considered as items for barter between tribes, and when nomadic tribes moved they would just leave behind women who were too weak or no longer served a purpose (i.e. child-rearing). So his teachings were actually an improvement on the status quo.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #7859579 - 01/10/08 01:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

A lot of people equate enlightenment with some above average humanity. I really don't think so myself and the above quote is why.




I think this is a tricky issue, because there are different perspectives one can take on this. From the dualistic perspective of ordinary, everyday mind, enlightenment IS something different from 'average humanity' (whatever average humanity means :wink: ). I don't know if I'd say it's above average humanity, but it's not the same as ordinary mind.

From the perspective of the awakening/enlightened mind, there is no difference between ordinary mind and the awakening mind. The great Zen master Joshu said "ordinary mind is Tao." Of course, it's easy to say this, but actually seeing this to be true is a whole different story.

As far as the woman thing goes, I agree with Lion, it definitely was a cultural thing. But he didn't let himself become limited by culture.

In the words of Seung Sahn, "Women can't achieve enlightenment."


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #7859663 - 01/10/08 01:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlightenment
n.


1a. The act or a means of enlightening.
1b. The state of being enlightened.

2. Enlightenment A philosophical movement of the 18th century that emphasized the use of reason to scrutinize previously accepted doctrines and traditions and that brought about many humanitarian reforms. Used with the.

3. Buddhism & Hinduism. A blessed state in which the individual transcends desire and suffering and attains Nirvana.




Let's just skip the first definitions (1a and 1b). I don't like it when a dictionary uses the word it is defining in its own definition.

As for the next two definitions (which I like)... the more I think about them, the more similar they become. The Enlightenment Movement and Zen Enlightenment are both quite similar... and they BOTH have to do with the amount of knowledge a person possesses.

Also, the more I think about it... the more I think, "Enlightenment" is synonymous with the word, "Wisdom".

If someone knows MUCH MORE about something than YOU do... you may believe they are enlightened.

Enlightenment is relative. One person's enlightened master is another person's equal... and yet another person's phony hack.

The most enlightened people I know have never claimed to be enlightened. Only people around them make THAT claim.

It is relative.

Your story reminds me of one I heard about Ghandi.

Ghandi was introduced to a young man and his son. The young man asked Ghandi to tell his son not to eat candy because candy is bad for him.

Ghandi told the young man to wait a day, then ask him the same question a second time.

The following day the man returned with his son and asked the same question of Ghandi and THIS time Ghandi told the man's son that he shouldn't eat candy. When the man asked Ghandi why he had to wait a day before Ghandi would advise his son... Ghandi replied, "Yesterday... I still ate candy too."


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Fiddlesticks.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Rose]
    #7859736 - 01/10/08 02:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"Enlightenment" is synonymous with the word, "Wisdom".

Wisdom being smarts in action.:thumbup:

I tend to agree with you. 

I tend to think that last definition is incorrect at least according to what I believe the Buddha taught. Enlightenment comes not from absence of desire but instead absence of attachment. I believe this is attainable to a high degree by anyone willing to work on it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #7859761 - 01/10/08 02:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I tend to think that last definition is incorrect at least according to what I believe the Buddha taught. Enlightenment comes not from absence of desire but instead absence of attachment. I believe this is attainable to a high degree by anyone willing to work on it.




I draw similar conclusions... but reading translations of what Buddha said and figuring out what he MEANT when he said it, is an arduous task... at best.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Rose]
    #7859776 - 01/10/08 02:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think absence of desire would not be possible for any human. One would find themselves at a complete standstill.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #7859804 - 01/10/08 02:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think absence of desire would not be possible for any human. One would find themselves at a complete standstill.




I think dehydration would strike first.

:smirk:

Dictionary.com usually words their definitions better... but they are hardly perfect. I WISH the Oxford English Dictionary was free online.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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OfflinePhilanthropist
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Rose]
    #7859929 - 01/10/08 02:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Enlightenment is plato's allegory of the cave. Just be happy and you'll be enlightened. Do the right thing.

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #7860133 - 01/10/08 03:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

Now here's the Buddha who has recently become enlightened by tremendous personal effort over many years of contemplation, meditation and experience . Yet he had a bias against women that had to be overcome by the arguments of another.





Was his bias overcome by the argument of another?  Or was it also overcome by his own contemplation and meditation on the subject, inspired by someone else's opinion?

Quote:

So what is enlightenment?




"The end of suffering" seems to work for me, with the caveat that all suffering stems from attachment to desires.  I don't know if that necessarily means an enlightened individual is free of opinions.

Quote:

Now I would think that allowing women to be nuns (with all the ramifications of that action) would be a no brainer. But not for him. He had to overcome lots of resistance and ignorance in himself.




Maybe if you lived 2500 years ago it wouldn't be a no brainer.  I'm not sure what it was like to live in that time, and what sort of doctrine Siddhartha Gautama received during his upbringing.  Our personal realities are each created from nothing but our own respective experiences.

We are all continually overcoming our ignorance (or letting it overcome us in some cases :laugh:) and I don't think enlightenment is supposed to be what happens when there is no ignorance left to overcome.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #7860344 - 01/10/08 04:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The bias against women was a cultural obstacle, not a personal bias. This is the same reason why when women were finally allowed to renounce that they had to follow many more rules than males, and could be punished for things the males did. It was so the public would "buy" it.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7860356 - 01/10/08 04:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Also, it was stated in one of the Theravada sutras that nirvana (enlightenment) is the absense of the three fires, which are aversion, greed, and delusion.

This would be the Buddhist definition. This word is kind of like "god". Everyone can't agree on a definition.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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OfflineGomp
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7860443 - 01/10/08 04:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"Enlightenment is that which the one attaining it, will know what is!"

Not claiming that I am, but it can be hard for an enlightened one to teach one who is not, what exactly it is or is not. Not only cause it is individual.. ..but also cause it is kind of like trying to learn someone speak Chinese in French.. Sure, it is possible.. But, it could be easier to learn from kind, and self! (Other Chinese speakers. :tongue: )

Edited by Gomp (01/10/08 04:41 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7860513 - 01/10/08 04:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jonathanseagull said:
The bias against women was a cultural obstacle, not a personal bias.  This is the same reason why when women were finally allowed to renounce that they had to follow many more rules than males, and could be punished for things the males did.  It was so the public would "buy" it.




Cultural bias if acted on is personal.  He had the bias. It is interesting to me that all these liberated ones seem bent not telling the truth so the common man will accept certain things. Kind of seems like they are interested in starting a religion.:whoa::lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #7860968 - 01/10/08 06:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think absence of desire would not be possible for any human. One would find themselves at a complete standstill.




Unless one then lived to only fulfill the desires and needs of others. However, based on your theory of self-interest this would be impossible. Myself, I am not so sure.


--------------------

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OfflineLion
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7860977 - 01/10/08 06:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Unless one then lived to only fulfill the desires and needs of others. However, based on your theory of self-interest this would be impossible. Myself, I am not so sure.


Being free of desire, why would one work to satisfy the desires of others? Needs are one thing, desires another. Eh?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: Lion]
    #7861005 - 01/10/08 06:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The way I see it, the two are not that separate. If one is in an absence of desire and someone asks me to open a window, I would just get up to do it, not having any desire of my own. That might sound like depersonalization or might sound like it has some sort of underlying motive but I think one would just do it because that would be the thing to do, one would be called to action. Unless we are going to define what someone needs as something very absolute like they need to attain liberation like myself and all my actions would reflect that goal? Let me know what you think.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7861028 - 01/10/08 06:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Your interest would be to help the other person (yes to make them feel good - but only because it makes you feel good to make him/her feel good :nut:).
Would you do it if your interest was to leave the window closed?
Of course, you could argue and say: I didn't have any intention at all.
Is it really so? :sherlock:
Do we really do ANYTHING at all without having a bit of intention?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: What is enlightenment? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7861035 - 01/10/08 06:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think Icelander may be right on this one. We might be completely unable to do anything.. I think I've experienced this before.


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