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A lot of people equate enlightenment with some above average humanity. I really don't think so myself and the above quote is why.

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I think this is a tricky issue, because there are different perspectives one can take on this. From the dualistic perspective of ordinary, everyday mind, enlightenment IS something different from 'average humanity' (whatever average humanity means ). I don't know if I'd say it's above average humanity, but it's not the same as ordinary mind.

From the perspective of the awakening/enlightened mind, there is no difference between ordinary mind and the awakening mind. The great Zen master Joshu said "ordinary mind is Tao." Of course, it's easy to say this, but actually seeing this to be true is a whole different story.

As far as the woman thing goes, I agree with Lion, it definitely was a cultural thing. But he didn't let himself become limited by culture.

In the words of Seung Sahn, "Women can't achieve enlightenment."

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Enlightenment
n.


1a. The act or a means of enlightening.
1b. The state of being enlightened.

2. Enlightenment A philosophical movement of the 18th century that emphasized the use of reason to scrutinize previously accepted doctrines and traditions and that brought about many humanitarian reforms. Used with the.

3. Buddhism & Hinduism. A blessed state in which the individual transcends desire and suffering and attains Nirvana.

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Icelander said:

I tend to think that last definition is incorrect at least according to what I believe the Buddha taught. Enlightenment comes not from absence of desire but instead absence of attachment. I believe this is attainable to a high degree by anyone willing to work on it.

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Icelander said:

I think absence of desire would not be possible for any human. One would find themselves at a complete standstill.

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I think dehydration would strike first.



Dictionary.com usually words their definitions better... but they are hardly perfect. I WISH the Oxford English Dictionary was free online.

Icelander said:

Now here's the Buddha who has recently become enlightened by tremendous personal effort over many years of contemplation, meditation and experience . Yet he had a bias against women that had to be overcome by the arguments of another.

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So what is enlightenment?

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Now I would think that allowing women to be nuns (with all the ramifications of that action) would be a no brainer. But not for him. He had to overcome lots of resistance and ignorance in himself.

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Maybe if you lived 2500 years ago it wouldn't be a no brainer.  I'm not sure what it was like to live in that time, and what sort of doctrine Siddhartha Gautama received during his upbringing.  Our personal realities are each created from nothing but our own respective experiences.

We are all continually overcoming our ignorance (or letting it overcome us in some cases ) and I don't think enlightenment is supposed to be what happens when there is no ignorance left to overcome.

jonathanseagull said:

The bias against women was a cultural obstacle, not a personal bias.  This is the same reason why when women were finally allowed to renounce that they had to follow many more rules than males, and could be punished for things the males did.  It was so the public would "buy" it.

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Cultural bias if acted on is personal.  He had the bias. It is interesting to me that all these liberated ones seem bent not telling the truth so the common man will accept certain things. Kind of seems like they are interested in starting a religion.

Icelander said:

I think absence of desire would not be possible for any human. One would find themselves at a complete standstill.

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Unless one then lived to only fulfill the desires and needs of others. However, based on your theory of self-interest this would be impossible. Myself, I am not so sure.

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