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 redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 34,915
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 Re: Enlightenment/Realisation  [Re: Icelander]
#9405314 - 12/10/08 10:51 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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isn't that a personalism
how do you escape the monitor's heat?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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I just got an official warning. However I'm not sure why?
A pundit is a learned person in the teachings of others. So if someone is a pundit they are not speaking from personal experience but from something they book learned somewhere. It is not a negative. We are all pundits to some degree. I hope I don't get banned for saying that.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: Icelander]
#9406847 - 12/10/08 02:39 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Everyone seeks Enlightenment, but in seeking it, one surely prevents it.
Maybe we're all too afraid of truly becoming enlightened? 
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Recondicom
Power of four
Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 226
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: Icelander]
#9406850 - 12/10/08 02:39 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I just got an official warning. However I'm not sure why?
A pundit is a learned person in the teachings of others. So if someone is a pundit they are not speaking from personal experience but from something they book learned somewhere. It is not a negative. We are all pundits to some degree. I hope I don't get banned for saying that.
Pundit: In the age of internet and book stores… do we need company to enlight? No one will see my far-out look in armor suit… No one will bow to my original way of walking the path… No one to prompt for my heart desire… What kind of enlightment does not need that?
No introduction to convoluted thought in the visual identity of the imagined archetype. Am I clear on that?
No laughter either. Am I clear on that?
Fright or fight. ( I mean write your own meaning of life)…(…lol)
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Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
Edited by Recondicom (12/10/08 02:57 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: Recondicom]
#9406962 - 12/10/08 02:55 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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 MainlyMind
Stranger
Registered: 11/27/08
Posts: 41
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: Icelander]
#9411029 - 12/11/08 04:20 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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>>>:"...I just got an official warning. However I'm not sure why?
Me neither? I didn't read your message, I'm sure it can't have been that bad? I've got no wish to see anyone banned for voicing their opinion about me - this is the internet, and by posting I do realise that I'm open to counter-posts.
Icelander, I've seen your posts and actually agree with your stance in most of them, because you're both objective and open. Anything you did or will say to me I will certainly take in the spirit of your previous messages.
>>>>"...A pundit is a learned person in the teachings of others. So if someone is a pundit they are not speaking from personal experience but from something they book learned somewhere. It is not a negative. We are all pundits to some degree. I hope I don't get banned for saying that..."
I see what you mean, (don't know about 'learned' though!:) but I'm a 'working' Buddhist, it's pretty much all I do. I base what I write about on those far more learned than myself, but also on personal experience of these states too, which is what led me to write about them.
As a former journalist (with a background in psychology and particulary the use of suggestion) nearly 30 years ago, I started out in meditation as a complete cynic, hoping to write an expose piece on the then blossoming western occult and New Age movements, to show 'enlightenment' to be not much more than a psychosomatic event. Along the way, things happened, and little by little my cynicism was eroded and I eventually became a Buddhist.
That I have experienced anything is neither here nor there really, tens of people have experienced non-duality (emptiness/Kensho)- at least two here have had the edges of it, and in the long run it's about as good as a 'blind cat bumping into a dead rat' until you can transform it into Satori. It's a beginning, that's all. I'm less than nothing in the scheme of things.
Anyway, the point being I'm really very happy to try to answer any criticisms or questions about these things from people who don't believe in them; and nothing you can personally say to me is going to make me feel like you're having a go unnecessarily. You're just doing what I would have done 30 years ago in your position. So please Mods, no problem my end with anything anyone can say here.
MM
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MainlyMind
Stranger
Registered: 11/27/08
Posts: 41
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: Recondicom]
#9411058 - 12/11/08 04:47 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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>> Everyone seeks Enlightenment, but in seeking it, one surely prevents it.
Yes, absolutely. But as I said earlier, once you move beyond basic practises, nobody seeks anything. We practise meditation for the ease it brings, if enlightenment (in terms of a 'state') comes along, great, if not,then we've lost nothing, because we have no expectations.
On a deeper level though, the point is to realise that there is no seeking to be done, which is why the higher traditions have an entirely different approach to meditation and show how and why stopping trying to be enlightened can help you 'reach' it.
Reaching isn't really a good word for what's being done - think of it more as recognising your current nature, not going somewhere else, or reaching some new spiritual realm.
MM
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 34,915
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: MainlyMind]
#9411188 - 12/11/08 06:18 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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like seeking epiphany (aka satori)
does not work.
seeking absorption through concentration produces the epiphany side effect.
if you seek the middle way, you find elightenment as a side effect
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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if you seek the middle way, you find elightenment as a side effect
Well at least you're not claiming one can have enlightenment. 
BTW what exactly is elightenment? Sounds like diet spirituality.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest
Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: Icelander]
#9411655 - 12/11/08 09:30 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
BTW what exactly is elightenment? Sounds like diet spirituality.
Nah, it's the internet version.
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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards.
"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"
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WhiskeyClone
Not here
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,506
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: Grapefruit]
#9411805 - 12/11/08 10:00 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I prefer Crystal Light-enment
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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Recondicom
Power of four
Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 226
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#9411851 - 12/11/08 10:08 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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“Blessedness consists in love of God. Blessedness is not the reward of virtue, but virtue itself; not do we enjoy it because we restrain our lusts; on the contrary, because we enjoy it, we are able to restrain them. The power to restrain lusts arises from blessedness itself. For not only is the ignorant man troubled in many ways by external causes, and unable ever to possess true peace of mind, but he also lives as if he knew neither himself, nor God, nor things….The wise/enlightened man is hardly troubled in spirit, but being , by a certain eternal necessity, conscious of himself, and of God , and of things, he never ceases to be , but always possesses true peace of mind.”
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Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
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Royal_Shroom
Love Is Key
Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 57
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: Recondicom]
#9411936 - 12/11/08 10:29 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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“Blessedness consists in love of God. Blessedness is not the reward of virtue, but virtue itself; not do we enjoy it because we restrain our lusts; on the contrary, because we enjoy it, we are able to restrain them. The power to restrain lusts arises from blessedness itself. For not only is the ignorant man troubled in many ways by external causes, and unable ever to possess true peace of mind, but he also lives as if he knew neither himself, nor God, nor things….The wise/enlightened man is hardly troubled in spirit, but being , by a certain eternal necessity, conscious of himself, and of God , and of things, he never ceases to be , but always possesses true peace of mind.”
I like this one. It's one of the better ones I've heard. It seems some say you must meditate or travel to new heights of the mind to attain enlightenment. To that I say "phooey."
I think it's just about overall your findings in life and knowing everything is wonderful and beautiful and like you said being conscious of ones self and of God and everything in between. Life is beautiful and anyone at this moment can attain enlightenment by being happy and letting go of anything negative. Be happy, be positive, be in love.
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Embrace your soul, color, and the light
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Recondicom
Power of four
Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 226
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: MainlyMind]
#9411965 - 12/11/08 10:36 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
MainlyMind said:
>> Everyone seeks Enlightenment, but in seeking it, one surely prevents it.
Yes, absolutely. But as I said earlier, once you move beyond basic practises, nobody seeks anything. We practise meditation for the ease it brings, if enlightenment (in terms of a 'state') comes along, great, if not,then we've lost nothing, because we have no expectations.
On a deeper level though, the point is to realise that there is no seeking to be done, which is why the higher traditions have an entirely different approach to meditation and show how and why stopping trying to be enlightened can help you 'reach' it.
Reaching isn't really a good word for what's being done - think of it more as recognising your current nature, not going somewhere else, or reaching some new spiritual realm.
MM
"
The origen of knowledge.
-kinds of certitude according to the objects (idealism,Scepticism,etc)
Anthropological discussions on prejudices.
Cognition must stand in a twofold relation to its object (if they can be termed rational). Either it may have to determine the conception of the object (which must be supplied extraneously or it may have to establish its reality. The former is theoretical and the later is practical rational cognition."
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Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: Recondicom]
#9412467 - 12/11/08 12:19 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Recondicom said:
“Blessedness consists in love of God. Blessedness is not the reward of virtue, but virtue itself; not do we enjoy it because we restrain our lusts; on the contrary, because we enjoy it, we are able to restrain them. The power to restrain lusts arises from blessedness itself. For not only is the ignorant man troubled in many ways by external causes, and unable ever to possess true peace of mind, but he also lives as if he knew neither himself, nor God, nor things….The wise/enlightened man is hardly troubled in spirit, but being , by a certain eternal necessity, conscious of himself, and of God , and of things, he never ceases to be , but always possesses true peace of mind.”
OH BABY! Preach at me.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Recondicom
Power of four
Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 226
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: Icelander]
#9412697 - 12/11/08 01:12 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Recondicom said:
“Blessedness consists in love of God. Blessedness is not the reward of virtue, but virtue itself; not do we enjoy it because we restrain our lusts; on the contrary, because we enjoy it, we are able to restrain them. The power to restrain lusts arises from blessedness itself. For not only is the ignorant man troubled in many ways by external causes, and unable ever to possess true peace of mind, but he also lives as if he knew neither himself, nor God, nor things….The wise/enlightened man is hardly troubled in spirit, but being , by a certain eternal necessity, conscious of himself, and of God , and of things, he never ceases to be , but always possesses true peace of mind.”
OH BABY! Preach at me.
I’m still working on my first post in this thread. Absolute truth.
If blessedness is about being in touch with the absolute truth then we are talking about enlightment.
So…It is belief.
In:
God.
Absolute truth.
Blessedness.
Enlightment.
Since I’m a human…the enlightment will not come from me. But…by the above.
Perhaps you require something more tangible. That is why we define things.
Is your recursive point in the direction of other kinds of enlightment or a lesser meaning of enlightment?
Does blessedness exists?... perhaps you like a lesser meaning as well.
That leaves Absolute truth.
What is absolute is true and I’m human(a reflexion/soul of the truth we seek.)
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Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: Recondicom]
#9412728 - 12/11/08 01:18 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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There is no God as far as I can tell. So it's like believing in Santa or fairy tales for me. It's just plain fucking silly and often destructive.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 34,915
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: Icelander]
#9413064 - 12/11/08 02:27 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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make me write bad cheques
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Royal_Shroom
Love Is Key
Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 57
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: Icelander]
#9413258 - 12/11/08 03:07 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
There is no God as far as I can tell. So it's like believing in Santa or fairy tales for me. It's just plain fucking silly and often destructive.
I do see where your coming from. But i think you have to evaluate your definition of God. Some peoples beliefs are destructive. Christianity especially. I do like some of the things christians are for but others do indeed seem destructive. I believe God just to the Creator. I am part of no religion. I practice my own beliefs and what i have acquired both by learning from say other religions and then what I believe myself. I find God to be the creator...and we are of God's essence and Gods world. IMO he is an artist. Grand storyteller and beautiful painter. Look at the world man...the true makings whether you call it God or just the creator...i think its all to complex for there to be no higher power.
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Embrace your soul, color, and the light
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: Royal_Shroom]
#9413342 - 12/11/08 03:20 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Doesn't matter how you describe it if it doesn't exist.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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