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NextShop:  Buy Bali Kratom Powder  Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds  Red Vein Kratom  Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order |
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 Royal_Shroom Love Is Key  Registered: 10/16/08 Posts: 57 |
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Quote: You Dick 
-------------------- Embrace your soul, color, and the light
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 MainlyMind Stranger Registered: 11/27/08 Posts: 41 Last seen: 14 years, 2 months |
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For those who don't beleive in enlightenment as a state (if you haven't read a full definition, see the earlier post regarding how Buddha described it), what kind of 'illness' do you think that those who seem to experience it are having? This was the first question that interested me about it, as I didn't initially believe it myself as a real state, so I'm very interested to hear what the thinkers here might consider it to be.
I spent a lot of time trying to attribute it, amongst other things, to Temporal Lobe Epilepsy and self-suggestion for example, but neither fitted. TLE has a well defined set of symptoms that don't match, self-suggestion would only work if Kensho only happened to those who meditated or believed such a thing was possible. I couldn't really put it down to cultural expectation either, as the event is the same whether you're an Aryan Rishi having the experience 3,000 years ago, or a London businessman, the content is exactly the same. If you believe that it is a mundane state, mistaken for something much more, what do you personally think is the cause? MM
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Poid Shroomery's #1 Spellir     Registered: 02/04/08 Posts: 40,372 Loc: SF Bay Area 
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Quote: I was in an enlightened state on the bus yesterday evening, and the bus driver thought I was crazy and that I need to go to a mental hospital. Apparently being happier than the bus "conductor" isn't allowed......
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MainlyMind Stranger Registered: 11/27/08 Posts: 41 Last seen: 14 years, 2 months |
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>>I was in an enlightened state on the bus yesterday evening, and the bus driver thought I was crazy and that I need to go to a mental hospital. Apparently being happier than the bus "conductor" isn't allowed....."
LOL! Obviously based somewhere in the UK then? MM
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redgreenvines irregular verb  Registered: 04/08/04 Posts: 34,368 |
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it can be toronto
the transit commission rules -------------------- 
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Recondicom Power of four  Registered: 05/03/07 Posts: 226 |
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Quote: Death's Messengers 'All they who thoughtless are, nor heed, What time Death's messengers appear, Must long the pangs of suffering feel In some base body habiting. But all those good and holy man, What time they see Death's messengers, Behave not thoughtless, but give heed To what the Noble Doctrine says; And in attachment frighted see Oh birth and death the fertile source, And from attachment free themselves, Thus birth and death extinguishing. Secure and happy ones are they; released from all this fleeting show; Exempted from all sin and fear, All misery have they overcome.' Anguttara-... [The introduction] At first, the preliminaries, THE GUIDE SERIES, for emancipating beings, should be mastered by practice. Follow by subject-matter (Virtue) and Conclusion (Overcoming Bardo fear) -------------------- Wave. 'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape. Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
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Poid Shroomery's #1 Spellir Registered: 02/04/08 Posts: 40,372 Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote: Nope, SF Bay Area....
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Icelander The Minstrel in the Gallery  Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Quote: What you call enlightenment I would call non neurotic behavior. Or Rational Emotive Behavior if you will. Nothing mystical or magical or spiritual. Just healthy skillful animal behavior. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Poid Shroomery's #1 Spellir Registered: 02/04/08 Posts: 40,372 Loc: SF Bay Area
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It's magical to the neurotics out there......
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Icelander The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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for sure
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MainlyMind Stranger Registered: 11/27/08 Posts: 41 Last seen: 14 years, 2 months |
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Re: Enlightenment/Realisation [Re: MainlyMind]
#9418398 - 12/12/08 01:20 PM (2 days, 11 hours ago) Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: -------------------------------- MainlyMind said: >>I was in an enlightened state on the bus yesterday evening, and the bus driver thought I was crazy and that I need to go to a mental hospital. Apparently being happier than the bus "conductor" isn't allowed....." LOL! Obviously based somewhere in the UK then? MM -------------------------------- Nope, SF Bay Area.... So that settles it. Bus drivers the world over are a law to themselves...:) MM
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MainlyMind Stranger Registered: 11/27/08 Posts: 41 Last seen: 14 years, 2 months |
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quote: >>What you call enlightenment I would call non neurotic behavior. Or Rational Emotive Behavior if you will. Nothing mystical or magical or spiritual. Just healthy skillful animal behavior.
I would certainly agree that there's nothing magical/mystical/spritiual about it. I see it more as gaining fuller sight of what's already here, not of some 'other plane'. As for REB - anyone with half an interest in behaviour could hardly do better than to read Ellis' work, he's up there with the best of them as far as I'm concerned. But is it a suitable canditate? To me (and others too, the University of Hull tried to give it a similar cause 7 years ago) it doesn't fit in with the type of 'illness' we're talking about. One problem being that, unlike REB, there are no prior or post-symptoms. It can happen whilst you're arguing, meditating, waiting for a bus, etc, with absolutely no precursors (particularly neuroses), trance, loss of consciousness or any other of the things you might expect. REB is a theory/treatment regarding overcoming cumulative behavioural dysfunction against a background of say, on-going trauma or stress. It's not really an an explanation of why so many people, cross-culturally, have exactly the same content in experiences of so-called 'realisation' - but I may well be missing your point, so I'd definitely like to discuss this further. Can you explain how you see REB causing the initial hallucination? Do you think it's possible for an event like this to occur wihout a background of stress or neuroses to trigger it? In many cases, what is experienced actually goes against say, long-held beliefs in Christianity that the subject might have, and actually turn them away from it. This isn't people having an experience and then trying to fit it into their existing world-view to rationalise it; this is counter-intuitive in that in many cases it goes against existing beliefs, so its hard to see the experience as being self-created by the Subject as some kind of 'comfort zone'. The other problem too is the number of people having such experiences; according to polls, allegedly an average of 54% of us will have a small/large version of one at some point in our lives - though I disagree with some of the methodology used by people like Gallup who conducted the surveys as being too broad and including religious experiences of the kind that Theresa of Availa experienced, which have a totally different content. Can so many people possibly all come up with exactly the same unreality in these events, right down to precise content? I seriously have to doubt it. The point is that realisation isn't just a set of pretty lights and a funny feeling of connectedness that can be interpreted by the subject in whatever way he chooses. In pure versions it comes with precise knowledge concerning the nature of reality that is the same from person to person, regardless of culture, beliefs, era, or even expectation, which makes it very unusual. It would be like every person with TLE having exactly the same internal experience, say, seeing a red car, when they have an 'attack'. I've got no axe to grind, if between us we can prove enlightenment to be mundane then that would be extremely interesting, so any ideas like the above that you have are welcome:) MM
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Recondicom Power of four Registered: 05/03/07 Posts: 226 |
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Quote: The trained runner releases endorphins into the brain. Then he/she goes and reads passages of obscure knowledge or visits the great masters of art. My point is that changing the word enlightment to fit a pseudo Buddha could also apply to a fitted human being. The old fashion word is about the definition of virtue. It could be soldier type or ninja type or Buddha type…etc. I’m trying to get your point as to whether realization follows enlightment or that is the same as enlightment. What is realization to you? Is it physical and therefore connected to the endorphins or is it connected to the metaphysical meditation?. There is a connection which is described in Buddhist literature. A straight line between the first stage and the last stage (overcoming Bardo fear)… Still, that involves meditation in front of the Buddha and I assume a strong belief. But it is possible (as in bus ride) that there is realization first and then enlightment. The release of a chemical in the brain for being in touch with the absolute truth. A chemical connection so much wanted we/humans still praying for it in the many different ways humans pray. It may be possible to trick the mechanism… something that starts with I… then take some codeine. Still; it is my point that the mechanism to enlightment has to do with belief. Anything else fades. -------------------- Wave. 'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape. Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
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redgreenvines irregular verb Registered: 04/08/04 Posts: 34,368 |
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hey
are you equating a state of "buddhahood" with enlightenment. there may need to be more distinction there. also things like "emptiness", "sunyata", may just be little signposts that crop up on the "way" like "bump ahead" and "deer crossing"; i.e. not so exclusive that there only is one of each, or that there is a review board such as for "stigmata" --------------------
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redgreenvines irregular verb Registered: 04/08/04 Posts: 34,368 |
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Quote: belief fades quickly too. I think enlightenment relies on less foundation rather than more. --------------------
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mr_kite The Watcher  Registered: 09/16/02 Posts: 2,577 Loc: shambhala Last seen: 10 years, 8 months |
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"What you call enlightenment I would call non neurotic behavior. Or Rational Emotive Behavior if you will. Nothing mystical or magical or spiritual. Just healthy skillful animal behavior."
 
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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MainlyMind Stranger Registered: 11/27/08 Posts: 41 Last seen: 14 years, 2 months |
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Sorry about the following, my replies are becoming far too long, but you ask such good questions:)
>>>The trained runner releases endorphins into the brain. Then he/she goes and reads passages of obscure knowledge or visits the great masters of art. Kensho can happen to people lying in bed/meditating/watching TV, with no stress or endorphin release as a beginning. The problem is too that the state is triggered by understanding, not by doing, or reaching some kind of state of excitement. Certainly, a Mahayana practitioner might have a glimpse in any of the Dhyana's and, if this was the only source of realisation then we could easily say that it was a result of their control, or expectation - but it's triggered far more commonly by suddenly understanding certain aspects of reality. There's no pre-requisite of any particular act of meditation. It doesn't require either a kind of state of awe or appreciation that you might get from looking at great art or an imposing view. It's a fallacy that beauty, virtue and love for the world are the keys to reaching it (though they can help), that's really just a western idea based on popular books and media. Buddhism isn't a religion >>My point is that changing the word enlightenment to fit a pseudo Buddha could also apply to a fitted human being. The old fashion word is about the definition of virtue. It could be soldier type or ninja type or Buddha type…etc. I'm not quite sure what you mean here: 'A fitted human being'? Why does the Buddha's definition of enlightenment need to be changed to a western concept? >> I’m trying to get your point as to whether realization follows enlightment or that is the same as enlightment. Yes, the two words are interchangeable. In the 'trade' wed use the word 'realisation' more than 'enlightenment', as it's a state of understanding, realising, set within an experience of non-duality. >> What is realization to you? Is it physical and therefore connected to the endorphins or is it connected to the metaphysical meditation?. Neither. Meditation in the usual sense is just a tool, and you'd surprised how small a part it plays in higher forms of contemplation. The best way to think of it is that meditation will increase the liklihood of someone having such an experience, but it's certainly not the only trigger by any means. As for the physical, as I said above, I can't see a case for endorphins being present, except in the kinds of Bhakti (devotional) methods, where people are whipped into a state of excitement and expectation. As I say in the above, I can't see a case for anyone in other circumstances somehow generating endorphins when they're say, looking casually out of a window. I hope you'll forgive all the generalisations I'm making here, it really needs much more explanation, but it would be a long read, so briefly: There are two levels of initial realisation: one where the subject experiences non-duality of mind and reality from 'their own side'; they understand their true nature as Empty, non-duality. The higher level (Satori) is to experience the whole of reality as the whole of reality, beyond time, as reality itself, and Empty and non-dual. But understand that this brief explanation is hardly a shadow of what you do feel and learn. Once it's over, everything is different, and, depending on how deeply you went and what practises you then enter into, the 'difference' can stay with you for weeks or the rest of your life. Once you reach Satori though, it stays, regardless of what you do. >> There is a connection which is described in Buddhist literature. A straight line between the first stage and the last stage (overcoming Bardo fear)… You're describing some forms of Tibetan Buddhism above, like Kagyu, not all forms have the same structure between a first stage (Kensho) and last (Satori - then later full Buddhahood) stage. There is this line in what are called the 'gradual' schools, but in later forms there are 'sudden' schools too, or even a mixture of sudden and gradual, like in Zen and Mahamudra. Dzogchen is usually sudden - in part because you have to have a certain amount of realisation to begin it - but more because it will tend to take you straight to Satori with no in-between states. As you can appreciate, there are schools that are keen to hold onto the idea that there can be no sudden realisation, and Mahayana says that using its methods one could become realised after many lifetimes of accumulating merit. But Dzogchen says that it can, and is, reached regularly in one lifetime. So there isn't really an overall set of 'rules' in Buddhism on how to reach it, or even the stages one must pass through, it depends on the school you follow. >>>Still, that involves meditation in front of the Buddha and I assume a strong belief. No, not really. I and many others have never meditated in front of an image of the Buddha in our lives. We venerate him, not worship him, so it's not a necessary part of practise to include him in meditation other than to thank him for his guidance. Again, there are very few set rules or practices which are across the board in all type of Buddhism. 'Strong belief' doesn't play a part really, particularly in spontaneous experiences of realisation. >>But it is possible (as in bus ride) that there is realization first and then enlightment. The two are the same. But if you mean, first you understand the nature of reality, then you have an experience of it, in some cases yes, but not always; sometimes it literally just begins, regardless of what you're doing or thinking about. >>>>The release of a chemical in the brain for being in touch with the absolute truth. A chemical connection so much wanted we/humans still praying for it in the many different ways humans pray. Prayer isn't present in Buddhism, and in many cases, not even meditation or any kind of a special state, just pure and simple understanding. But, at this point we meet in our thinking - is there a chemical in the brain that causes it? I used to think so, but now I have to be honest and think not. I'm not sure what chemical could cause the same illusion - without any form of prior expectation - in every subject. I can't think either of a chemical that a subject could trigger the release of at will to produce these effects, as some can do. >>It may be possible to trick the mechanism… something that starts with I… then take some codeine. I agree. I think it could be possible too, and still continue to try to find chemical and psychological ways of inducing it. >> Still; it is my point that the mechanism to enlightment has to do with belief. Anything else fades. No, Kensho fades, if you don't know how to prolong it. But you have to realise that 'prolonging' it to reach Satori doesn't mean doing a set of actions (like meditating), then reach some state, then rise out of when you stop meditating, it isn't like that. Satori is continual, there's no leaving it. In the condition between Kensho and Satori it comes and goes, certainly, depending on how far along you are, but with the right approach, even after Kensho it can be more or less permanent. Overall, you aren't talking about a state - although you could call your glimpses of Kensho 'states' - but acquired knowledge.You can't leave knowledge behind, you can only forget it. So in a sense, Mahamudra and Dzogchen are there to teach you how to have that knowledge continually uppermost in your mind. But even the above is a gradual school approach really. If you were to go straight to Satori - as many do - there is no fading, or coming and going of a particular state. As an atheist, if it relied on belief or faith I can assure you I wouldn't have had the tiniest inkling of it:) MM
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MainlyMind Stranger Registered: 11/27/08 Posts: 41 Last seen: 14 years, 2 months |
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I know a few here have experienced bliss, so the below contains a few excerpts from Tibetan thought regarding its place in Vajrayana (tantric) Buddhism. Bear in mind that this isn't approached in quite the same way in all Buddhist traditions, bliss can play a much lesser role in some, but it's a good indicator of the basic ideas:
"...The three main components of the tantric path, the vajrayana, therefore, are these three - bliss, emptiness and compassion/bodhichitta. Bodhichitta [strong compassion] is required at the start of the path, in the middle and at the end. Bliss and emptiness, likewise, are required at all stages. It is not to be achieved through abandoning the world or abandoning oneself as is often commonly believed and erroneously taught, but through transforming our perception of both - transforming this perception slowly, continuously, incrementally and very thoroughly. The Buddha view is only attained through bliss and the bliss is only attained and maintained through deity yoga and seeing the world as mandala. This is the final step into Buddhahood - maintaining the unfading bliss. Rather than seeing the world as one big distraction from spiritual practice, we can then begin to use it as a source of bliss and use it continuously to generate bliss. Once our body and senses become the source of continuous and unfading bliss, conjoined with emptiness etc then we are very close to seeing the world as mandala and of achieving the truth body, enjoyment body and emanation body of a Buddha. Even the defilements become forms of bliss - anger bliss, hatred bliss, envy bliss, ignorance bliss, jealousy bliss, attachment bliss. The bliss must be welded with compassion or bodhichitta and tranquillity as this makes it warm, caring and powerful, radiant and supple. Ifthe compassion element is missing then it becomes selfish bliss, indulgent bliss and falls into hedonism. The non-attachment is also important or we become deeply attached to the bliss and the pleasure element. Similar arguments apply to the other required elements. Bliss is a very important topic within Buddhism generally, and especially within the Vajrayana. This is because direct experience of bliss of all kinds can lead to profound states of tranquillity and become of great service in a spiritual path. It is especially important as an aspect of deity yoga within all the tantras. 2 forms of bliss exist: 1 - Conditional bliss which depends entirely upon non-empty forms, sense stimuli and concepts and feelings for its generation and experience. 2 - Non-conditional bliss which depends for its generation on empty forms or on the perception of emptiness in general, on imagined visualised forms and concepts, etc. Most bliss is contaminated with feelings of desire, and actually arises from the sensations of pleasure that arise from proximity to desired forms and objects. The pleasure is elicited in the mind in response to contact with a desired form. Yet there are also karmic seeds in the mindstream that establish the object as desirable in the first place. All the pleasures we experience fall into this category and the pleasure is experienced in this manner, and are a distraction from mind development. However, with uncontaminated bliss, the pleasure is experienced as an aspect of oneself as a deity, as a precious emanation of emptiness and in a non-attached and compassionate way. Thus, commingled with these superior qualities, the bliss is a pure uncontaminated bliss that is an aid to practice, instead of a distraction from it. Contaminated bliss is also subject to fading and loss which causes a sensation of grief, sadness or aversion. The loss of the pleasure is regarded as a form of inner loss. Uncontaminated bliss does not have these qualities as it is not subject to fading or loss. It does not involve attachment and so there is not a sense of loss as it is non-fading and self-regenerating..." MM
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redgreenvines irregular verb Registered: 04/08/04 Posts: 34,368 |
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I like that quote
--------------------
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Recondicom Power of four Registered: 05/03/07 Posts: 226 |
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Quote: As I try to assimilate and find meaning to the extensive knowledge. I realize that is coming from a different source. Here we have doctrines. Doctrines are the different paths taken in Buddhism… so a path is a doctrine. Doctrines of Buddhism. I’m not trying to define Buddhism and I see that MM does not concur in any of my observations. But looking closely I find a desire to use descriptions that closely resemble those of Jehovah witnesses. Only one way of telling the truth. So it is pleasure and not endorphins. So Buddha hood consciousness is different than Christian consciousness. Deity is not God- like it is Buddha- like different than Jesus- like. But it is the use of the word deity that makes Buddhism a religion and not a philosophy. So it is religion that have doctrines. “Contaminated bliss is also subject to fading and loss which causes a sensation of grief, sadness or aversion. The loss of the pleasure is regarded as a form of inner loss. Uncontaminated bliss does not have these qualities as it is not subject to fading or loss. It does not involve attachment and so there is not a sense of loss as it is non-fading and self-regenerating..." In Judeo-Christian I call that sin. Ultimate truth in the two truths doctrine from Buddhism. Bliss is derived from ultimate truth. In Judeo-Christian I find it easier to say being in touch with the absolute truth. And so: realization. Gratification for some is the truth to be found. The bliss is a side effect. And for enlighten… being rational is just enough. For I learn from anybody rational. I like mandalas. I meditate in front of the word demagogue. -------------------- Wave. 'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape. Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
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