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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
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    #7703757 - 12/01/07 06:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

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OfflineWScott
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7703779 - 12/01/07 06:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You'll get better responses if you don't start with such an ignorant generalization. Also, there are many different ways that people interpret the biblical hell.


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7703804 - 12/01/07 06:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I may not see the logic, but I see the justice!  :hotidea:


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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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Offlineboxcarguy07
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: WScott]
    #7703810 - 12/01/07 06:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:
You'll get better responses if you don't start with such an ignorant generalization. Also, there are many different ways that people interpret the biblical hell.




x2


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:musicnote:Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.:musicnote:


:psychsplit:"Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind."
            -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:psychsplit:


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
. [Re: WScott]
    #7703836 - 12/01/07 06:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7703846 - 12/01/07 06:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
christians are filled with "ignorant generalizations"



Those who insist they are the only "true Christians" tend to be that way. Then there are those of us who follow Christ...


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7703859 - 12/01/07 06:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7703874 - 12/01/07 06:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
yeah well my stepfather was a bible thumping piece of shit who was also a raging alcoholic behind closed doors.



Interesting. Lie down on the couch over there and tell me more about your childhood. How was your relationship with your mother?

/takes out pen and notepad and lights a cigar.


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7703890 - 12/01/07 06:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

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OfflineWScott
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7703923 - 12/01/07 06:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Bill Hick's parents were both southern Baptist Christians.
"God's love is unconditional and there is nothing you can ever do to change that." ~Bill Hicks (roughly what he said, I can get the sketch if you want)

I'm not saying Bill Hicks was a Christian, but he has in fact referred to himself as a preacher. One of the best if I were to say so.


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
. [Re: WScott]
    #7703926 - 12/01/07 06:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

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Offlineevolprim
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704008 - 12/01/07 07:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

bill hicks is definetly not talking about the god of christianity.

i think that most fundamentalists regardless of religion have ass backwards logic. but ive met a few decent religious people in my life, sadly the majority seem to see religious as a get out of jail free card, and while i lean towards athiesm/skepticism, i still think the world would be a better place if people could follow some of the "better" ideals set forth in religion like being nice to other people .


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704022 - 12/01/07 07:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
According to christianity all "non believers" go to hell. so essentially a guy who just doesn't believe in christ but who leads a relatively normal life is going to go to the same hell and receive the same punishment as people who rape children.

yeah, i can see the fucking logic in that.



You are correct. Why does both the rapist and the "good" person go to hell? Because they are lacking perfect righteousness. God can not look at anything less then perfect righteousness. Christ died for His people and imputes to them His perfect righteousness. In time His unspeakable gift is revealed to them in the gospel. Notice the faith itself is a gift and not a meritorious cause of God's favor to them. Christ justifies and reconciles His people despite who they are, not because what they do.

Free grace is at the core of the gospel. It is just waiting to be believed. All believers are justified from all charges against them. The penalty being paid in Christ's blood. I hope one day you may know this.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704052 - 12/01/07 07:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

aren't references to hell actually talking about a real place in isreal?

i think i read that somewhere, that the actual mention of hell really means a place on earth that exists, but i could be wrong


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704064 - 12/01/07 07:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

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Offlineurtrippin
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704092 - 12/01/07 07:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

It appears that 82% of adult Americans are delusional.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7704101 - 12/01/07 07:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
aren't references to hell actually talking about a real place in isreal?

i think i read that somewhere, that the actual mention of hell really means a place on earth that exists, but i could be wrong



The word "Hell" does not appear in the Bible. The word "hell" is actually derived from "Hel," the land of the dead in Norse mythology(except for those warriors who died in battle and went to Valhalla).

There are different things in the Bible which are often all conflated as one single place. What you are referring to here is Gehenna, a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where trash was burned. By Jesus' time, the Jews had conflated Gehenna with a place of suffering after death for sinners. Interestingly, the Jews did not believe it to be a place of permanent suffering and punishment, except for the worst of sinners. Rather, they saw it as a temporary place of purification where one's sins were burned away.

Another place Jesus mentions is Hades. This the land of the dead in Greek mythology(interesting that Jesus would reference pagan mythology -- apparently the mixture of Christianity with paganism goes all the way back to the beginning).

A third place often conflated with Hell is Sheol, which is basically the Jewish equivalent of Hades. Both Hades and Sheol were not originally seen as places of eternal suffering. They were simply where one's soul went when one died. I think purgatory or limbo would be better parallels for them than the fire and brimstone that is usually associated with Hell in the popular imagination.

Then, finally, there is the "Lake of Fire" referenced in the Book of Revelation. This, along with Gehenna, is where most of our imagery of Hell comes from, and only in Revelation is it treated as a place of eternal suffering.


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Edited by Silversoul (12/01/07 07:50 PM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704227 - 12/01/07 08:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

dr_gonz said:
According to christianity all "non believers" go to hell. so essentially a guy who just doesn't believe in christ but who leads a relatively normal life is going to go to the same hell and receive the same punishment as people who rape children.

yeah, i can see the fucking logic in that.



You are correct.  Why does both the rapist and the "good" person go to hell?  Because they are lacking perfect righteousness.  God can not look at anything less then perfect righteousness.  Christ died for His people and imputes to them His perfect righteousness.  In time His unspeakable gift is revealed to them in the gospel.  Notice the faith itself is a gift and not a meritorious cause of God's favor to them.  Christ justifies and reconciles His people despite who they are, not because what they do.

Free grace is at the core of the gospel.  It is just waiting to be believed.  All believers are justified from all charges against them.  The penalty being paid in Christ's blood.  I hope one day you may know this.




LOL!!!!

so essentially if the penalty is the same i should start acting like a real fucking piece of shit. killing, raping, stealing, etc. :smirk:




They both will be in the Lake of Fire.  The question becomes are there levels of punishment in the Lake?  Jesus reviled the cities where He did His most of His miracles yet they repented not and warned them their judgment would be worse than Sodom's.  So it does appear that punishment is not uniform.

Mt 11:20  Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:21  Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.22  But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.23  And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.24  But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Jesus also warned of the stewards who knew his lord's will and didn't do it would be beaten with many stripes, while the steward who didn't know his lords will would be beaten with few stripes.  Those who have a knowledge of gospel truths and yet are not saved will be held more accountable and receive a worse punishment.

This could also apply to the OT nation of Israel that had the Word of God, yet they did not follow any part of it.  They were cut off and the gospel was given to others.

Luke 12:42  And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?43  Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.44  Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.45  But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;46  The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.47  And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


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OfflineWScott
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704255 - 12/01/07 08:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Fivepointer:
"God cannot look upon anything less than righteousness." ~you

"The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain." ~Genesis 6:5-6


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: WScott]
    #7704277 - 12/01/07 08:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:
Fivepointer:
"God cannot look upon anything less than righteousness." ~you

"The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain." ~Genesis 6:5-6



My quote said "PERFECT righteousness". Who had perfect righteousness? Christ only! No one else. God can look at the wicked only if they are in Christ. Christ's blood covers the wicked and they will appear as spotless. God can now look at those wicked because they have received perfect righteousness by imputation.


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