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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: 2Experimental]
    #3010760 - 08/16/04 08:36 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I wouldn't say the Earth has a consciousness like humans, but I definitely think the Earth is aware of itself and its existence.

It is a sentient entity, and we depend on it for our existence.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Shroomism]
    #3010857 - 08/16/04 09:07 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

More like we are it


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Offlinecurious4
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: bandaid]
    #3010891 - 08/16/04 09:18 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Nature is beautiful..even when one one animal kills another. There is a brief period of brutallity and pain but in the end one animal is eating a fine meal while the spirit of the other melts with all others that came before it. Death is just as beautiful as life if you ask me. Now as for the cruelity that man inflicts, it seems very out of place. Almost alien to how the rest of nature works.

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Invisiblebandaid
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: curious4]
    #3010967 - 08/16/04 09:35 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

If nature never did those things we wouldnt have ever gotten the idea to do malice in the first place right :confused:

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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: bandaid]
    #3012072 - 08/17/04 03:16 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Thats a really good point. I wonder jst how much human nature is environmentally-influenced and how much inherent in our species regardless of other factors. If we were to send a few babies to a planet where everything is love and peace and there are no natural disasters...would those babies still show the same human failings that we all do?

I think man does mimic nature to a large extent but our sheer power means that we are rapidly destroying nature at the same time.

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: &amp;amp;amp;amp; Re: timetraveller &amp;amp;amp;amp; kaiowas; s [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3012388 - 08/17/04 07:30 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Nice one dude :grin:

I think you are right about the wholesale war bit - changing this is the paradigm shift that will be necessary in order to stop humanity backfiring. This is the tricky part!

It seems to me that power itself forms a strong addictive pathway and usually produces obsessive and pathological behaviour amongst humans. That is one reason we need to link back to the vegetable mind matrix, in order to quell this personality trait and break conditioning.

When you look at any group of predatory mammals, if their group grows too large for the territory they exist in they will try to enlarge that territory. If they meet another group of the same species in the process of that expansion then battles, and even a kind of war errupts. A war over territory and resources.

This seems to be a habitual process in the minds of mammals (and other animal types). Nature seems to be a series of evolving habits and forms. We as humans possess the ability to transcend this habit, due to the concievable consciousness we have access to, however we as a group do not seem to have done so yet.

Instead the power addicts ensure the status quo, and that the rut of this habit is persued. It serves their purpose of self-elevation within their groups to keep any divisions prominent. This is a major source of inertia to the development of our species.

It could well even wipe us out, and most of the planet's life too, if things don't change fast. Even if this does happen, it by no means means the end of Mother Earth.

There does remain the distinct possibility of trancendance and a full recoupling with the vegetable mind matrix. In fact the escalated growth of psychedellic use worldwide, coupled with increasing awareness of our predicament and the failure of war in the minds of the masses, is a strong candidate for the catalyst that can change our species-wide habitual pattern. People are losing faith in their governments, in the leadership of the powerful, and in these warring ways.

Like you say - 'don't hold your breath' - and don't worry I am not. I'm breathing hard and running hard through the jungle to make the deadline - I'm doing all I can to bring this process to it's possible fruition. Many people might not be able to see that, but many do not understand my ways.

:sun:

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Shroomism]
    #3012410 - 08/17/04 07:44 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

  There is a difference, I think.. in animals killing other animals for survival, and human killing other animals or humans for war or "sport", or the variety of other reasons that don't have to do with survival.



 

Is the reason we as a species persue such 'sports' because we are locked in habitual patterns learnt from millenia of hunting for survival? It seems it to me.

The greatest step forward will be to overcome these habitual behaviours which no longer serve their once important purpose. Many however cling to what they know, and what their recent genetic memory reminds them is the 'natural' course of things, despite its present inadequacy. That is how species fail, because they fail to evolve into the mould neccesitated by new survival perameters. We as humans possess the ability to evolve mentally/spiritually, and this is what can carry us forward and beyond the old patterns that no longer fit.


ps - big up to everyone on this forum, a fine debate with fine people :thumbup:

Edited by CJay (08/17/04 07:57 AM)

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Offlinerepemon
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Shroomism]
    #3012501 - 08/17/04 08:25 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

About pain:

Also mental pain should be taken as "now there is something wrong going on". But, the hard part to learn is that it is one's own fault pretty much if others can hurt one mentally (not in every case though, like if your father says to you that actually I never loved you sonofabitch, of course then you have to think if there was a reason in you that made your father say it :wink:

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InvisibleLazerouth
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: Shroomism]
    #3014370 - 08/17/04 03:30 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
are atomic bombs natural?
is making a plant illegal natural?




Yes and yes.

Is an ape using a twig to fish out termites unatural?
Is an eagle dropping turtles onto rocks unatural?

As creations of nature everything we do is natural by default.

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: &amp; Re: timetraveller &amp; kaiowas [Re: Lazerouth]
    #3014381 - 08/17/04 03:32 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

the logic in your metaphors is nonsensical for his two questions.

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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: &amp; Re: timetraveller &amp; kaiowas [Re: vampirism]
    #3014598 - 08/17/04 04:15 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

According to this reasoning, no man is accountable for his actions since he lacks free will; his actions being controlled by nature. I refuse to accept this. Two humans can live lives diametrically opposed - say Hitler compared with Mother Theresa (obvious choices i know). One lifestyle must be unnatural, or both, but they cannot both be natural since that would break the law of non-contradiction. Two opposites cannot both be correct.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: &amp;amp; Re: timetraveller &amp;amp; kaiowas [Re: vampirism]
    #3014610 - 08/17/04 04:18 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Not at all! What he's saying (I think) is that as we are creations of nature, anything we create is also a part of nature.

Why view humans separately from nature? I don't think it makes sense. We are a (small) part of nature, not external to it. The things we create are distinctly human in nature, yet they are still creations of nature (through us).


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: &amp;amp; Re: timetraveller &amp;amp; kaiowas [Re: trendal]
    #3014631 - 08/17/04 04:21 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

So Trendal, do you refuse to believe that it is within human capability to defy nature?

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: &amp;amp;amp; Re: timetraveller &amp;amp;amp; kaiowas [Re: trendal]
    #3014661 - 08/17/04 04:27 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Well yes, but his metaphors are simply not suited for that, IMO. Ill take it very generally, as you are suggesting then.

I agree that we are a part of nature, but what definition of nature is to be settled on? The physical world ? I don't know about you, but I certainly don't spend all of my consciousness in reality.. Our bodies may be entirely part of nature, but I am hesistant to say so about our minds. That would suggest that we only experience our surroundings and use them to imitate or create.

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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: &amp;amp;amp; Re: timetraveller &amp;amp;amp; kaiowas [Re: vampirism]
    #3014685 - 08/17/04 04:33 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I'm inclined to agree with you Morrowind. And since the mind and body both influence eachother to varying degrees, this would mean that human actions are a mixture of nature-programmed and innovative factors that are not controlled by nature. Thus the existence of humanity on this planet shows signs of being both in harmony with nature in some aspects, and out of touch in other areas. This I would suggest is the reason so many people feel lost and lonely in this world.

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InvisibleLazerouth
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Re: &amp;amp;amp;amp; Re: timetraveller &amp;amp;amp;amp; kaiowas [Re: vampirism]
    #3014731 - 08/17/04 04:46 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Trendall is spot on. I'm sorry that I didn't word it better.

In all creation myths the gods and heavens are created with the earth. Does that mean that the spiritual world was born via a natural process hence making it natural as well?

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Offlinedeff
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Re: &amp;amp;amp;amp; Re: timetraveller &amp;amp;amp;amp; kaiowas [Re: Lazerouth]
    #3014776 - 08/17/04 04:56 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Natural is a human symbol. It is not some objective state of being, and for that reason, it varies in meaning from person to person. You people are only debating the meaning of 'nature', when it can mean whatever you want.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: &amp;amp;amp;amp;amp; Re: timetraveller &amp;amp;amp;amp [Re: Lazerouth]
    #3014782 - 08/17/04 04:58 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

sadly, creation myths have little influence on our current times, and are primarily expressive of the physical world.

Perhaps there is something beyond the spiritual and physical which can not be experienced, but which still influences us - kind of like gravity, but experienced through a bacterium. Just conjecture, naturally.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: &amp; Re: timetraveller &amp; kaiowas [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3014834 - 08/17/04 05:14 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Zoso_UK said:
So Trendal, do you refuse to believe that it is within human capability to defy nature?




"Defy nature" implies that there is some sort of command or rule coming from nature, or at the very least some sort of plan. It sounds like you are refering to "nature" as some sort of entity on it's own, separate from "us", which again is not something I think is true.

You'll have to clarify your question a bit for me, but if I'm picking up your idea correctly then the answer is No, I do not think it possible to "defy" nature.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: &amp; Re: timetraveller &amp; kaiowas [Re: trendal]
    #3014965 - 08/17/04 06:11 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Ok, I agree I phrased that badly. So, just so I can be clear on your position, you believe all of mankind to be in harmony with nature in the same way every other animal is?

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