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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
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    #7703757 - 12/01/07 06:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

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OfflineWScott
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7703779 - 12/01/07 06:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You'll get better responses if you don't start with such an ignorant generalization. Also, there are many different ways that people interpret the biblical hell.


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7703804 - 12/01/07 06:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I may not see the logic, but I see the justice!  :hotidea:


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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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Offlineboxcarguy07
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: WScott]
    #7703810 - 12/01/07 06:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:
You'll get better responses if you don't start with such an ignorant generalization. Also, there are many different ways that people interpret the biblical hell.




x2


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:musicnote:Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.:musicnote:


:psychsplit:"Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind."
            -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:psychsplit:


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
. [Re: WScott]
    #7703836 - 12/01/07 06:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7703846 - 12/01/07 06:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
christians are filled with "ignorant generalizations"



Those who insist they are the only "true Christians" tend to be that way. Then there are those of us who follow Christ...


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
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. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7703859 - 12/01/07 06:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7703874 - 12/01/07 06:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
yeah well my stepfather was a bible thumping piece of shit who was also a raging alcoholic behind closed doors.



Interesting. Lie down on the couch over there and tell me more about your childhood. How was your relationship with your mother?

/takes out pen and notepad and lights a cigar.


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
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. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7703890 - 12/01/07 06:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

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OfflineWScott
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7703923 - 12/01/07 06:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Bill Hick's parents were both southern Baptist Christians.
"God's love is unconditional and there is nothing you can ever do to change that." ~Bill Hicks (roughly what he said, I can get the sketch if you want)

I'm not saying Bill Hicks was a Christian, but he has in fact referred to himself as a preacher. One of the best if I were to say so.


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
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. [Re: WScott]
    #7703926 - 12/01/07 06:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

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Offlineevolprim
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704008 - 12/01/07 07:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

bill hicks is definetly not talking about the god of christianity.

i think that most fundamentalists regardless of religion have ass backwards logic. but ive met a few decent religious people in my life, sadly the majority seem to see religious as a get out of jail free card, and while i lean towards athiesm/skepticism, i still think the world would be a better place if people could follow some of the "better" ideals set forth in religion like being nice to other people .


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704022 - 12/01/07 07:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
According to christianity all "non believers" go to hell. so essentially a guy who just doesn't believe in christ but who leads a relatively normal life is going to go to the same hell and receive the same punishment as people who rape children.

yeah, i can see the fucking logic in that.



You are correct. Why does both the rapist and the "good" person go to hell? Because they are lacking perfect righteousness. God can not look at anything less then perfect righteousness. Christ died for His people and imputes to them His perfect righteousness. In time His unspeakable gift is revealed to them in the gospel. Notice the faith itself is a gift and not a meritorious cause of God's favor to them. Christ justifies and reconciles His people despite who they are, not because what they do.

Free grace is at the core of the gospel. It is just waiting to be believed. All believers are justified from all charges against them. The penalty being paid in Christ's blood. I hope one day you may know this.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704052 - 12/01/07 07:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

aren't references to hell actually talking about a real place in isreal?

i think i read that somewhere, that the actual mention of hell really means a place on earth that exists, but i could be wrong


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704064 - 12/01/07 07:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

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Offlineurtrippin
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704092 - 12/01/07 07:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

It appears that 82% of adult Americans are delusional.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7704101 - 12/01/07 07:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
aren't references to hell actually talking about a real place in isreal?

i think i read that somewhere, that the actual mention of hell really means a place on earth that exists, but i could be wrong



The word "Hell" does not appear in the Bible. The word "hell" is actually derived from "Hel," the land of the dead in Norse mythology(except for those warriors who died in battle and went to Valhalla).

There are different things in the Bible which are often all conflated as one single place. What you are referring to here is Gehenna, a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where trash was burned. By Jesus' time, the Jews had conflated Gehenna with a place of suffering after death for sinners. Interestingly, the Jews did not believe it to be a place of permanent suffering and punishment, except for the worst of sinners. Rather, they saw it as a temporary place of purification where one's sins were burned away.

Another place Jesus mentions is Hades. This the land of the dead in Greek mythology(interesting that Jesus would reference pagan mythology -- apparently the mixture of Christianity with paganism goes all the way back to the beginning).

A third place often conflated with Hell is Sheol, which is basically the Jewish equivalent of Hades. Both Hades and Sheol were not originally seen as places of eternal suffering. They were simply where one's soul went when one died. I think purgatory or limbo would be better parallels for them than the fire and brimstone that is usually associated with Hell in the popular imagination.

Then, finally, there is the "Lake of Fire" referenced in the Book of Revelation. This, along with Gehenna, is where most of our imagery of Hell comes from, and only in Revelation is it treated as a place of eternal suffering.


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Edited by Silversoul (12/01/07 07:50 PM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704227 - 12/01/07 08:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

dr_gonz said:
According to christianity all "non believers" go to hell. so essentially a guy who just doesn't believe in christ but who leads a relatively normal life is going to go to the same hell and receive the same punishment as people who rape children.

yeah, i can see the fucking logic in that.



You are correct.  Why does both the rapist and the "good" person go to hell?  Because they are lacking perfect righteousness.  God can not look at anything less then perfect righteousness.  Christ died for His people and imputes to them His perfect righteousness.  In time His unspeakable gift is revealed to them in the gospel.  Notice the faith itself is a gift and not a meritorious cause of God's favor to them.  Christ justifies and reconciles His people despite who they are, not because what they do.

Free grace is at the core of the gospel.  It is just waiting to be believed.  All believers are justified from all charges against them.  The penalty being paid in Christ's blood.  I hope one day you may know this.




LOL!!!!

so essentially if the penalty is the same i should start acting like a real fucking piece of shit. killing, raping, stealing, etc. :smirk:




They both will be in the Lake of Fire.  The question becomes are there levels of punishment in the Lake?  Jesus reviled the cities where He did His most of His miracles yet they repented not and warned them their judgment would be worse than Sodom's.  So it does appear that punishment is not uniform.

Mt 11:20  Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:21  Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.22  But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.23  And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.24  But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Jesus also warned of the stewards who knew his lord's will and didn't do it would be beaten with many stripes, while the steward who didn't know his lords will would be beaten with few stripes.  Those who have a knowledge of gospel truths and yet are not saved will be held more accountable and receive a worse punishment.

This could also apply to the OT nation of Israel that had the Word of God, yet they did not follow any part of it.  They were cut off and the gospel was given to others.

Luke 12:42  And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?43  Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.44  Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.45  But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;46  The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.47  And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


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OfflineWScott
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704255 - 12/01/07 08:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Fivepointer:
"God cannot look upon anything less than righteousness." ~you

"The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain." ~Genesis 6:5-6


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: WScott]
    #7704277 - 12/01/07 08:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:
Fivepointer:
"God cannot look upon anything less than righteousness." ~you

"The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain." ~Genesis 6:5-6



My quote said "PERFECT righteousness". Who had perfect righteousness? Christ only! No one else. God can look at the wicked only if they are in Christ. Christ's blood covers the wicked and they will appear as spotless. God can now look at those wicked because they have received perfect righteousness by imputation.


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
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. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704284 - 12/01/07 08:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704299 - 12/01/07 08:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
and you know this how?? let me take a wild guess........ your parents taught you to be christian....

DING DING DING



Wrong!!!! BZZZttt

I was an agnostic atheist probably longer than you have been alive. Who taught me, God Himself by the Spirit revealing the Word.

DING DING DING


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704316 - 12/01/07 08:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

fivepointer, born-again or not, your presence in this thread is doing nothing more than proving dr_gonz's original point.

No offense.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7704323 - 12/01/07 08:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I don't care, the Word is being expounded thanks to this thread. Those with ears will hear and those without shall be hardened.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704333 - 12/01/07 08:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Who taught me, God Himself




And not some random poster spouting scripture?


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
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. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704336 - 12/01/07 08:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704352 - 12/01/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

dr_gonz said:
and you know this how?? let me take a wild guess........ your parents taught you to be christian....

DING DING DING



Wrong!!!! BZZZttt

I was an agnostic atheist probably longer than you have been alive.  Who taught me, God Himself by the Spirit revealing the Word.

DING DING DING




and how did the "spirit" reveal himself? :smirk:

i'm not a stranger to your god. i had christianity jammed down my throat for 18 years, son. it's all bullshit. money, lies, and hidden agendas. wake up



Woke up by the grace of God.  You don't know since you have never been  convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment by the Spirit.

You were an unconverted Christian, I see why you hate it so.


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
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. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704358 - 12/01/07 09:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704367 - 12/01/07 09:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
You were an unconverted Christian, I see why you hate it so.




Yeah, brainwashing generally sucks. Happened to me, too, coincidentally also by my fundamentalist, closet-alcoholic father.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704370 - 12/01/07 09:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You can do nothing if the Spirit doesn't bring you to conversion by applying the Word. The Spirit comes like the wind when and if and to whom He wills.


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
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. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704374 - 12/01/07 09:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704381 - 12/01/07 09:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
how old are you?



42


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704382 - 12/01/07 09:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
You can do nothing if the Spirit doesn't bring you to conversion by applying the Word. The Spirit comes like the wind when and if and to whom He wills.




So basically, if I die tomorrow I'll go to hell because the Spirit never felt like visiting me to show me how magical and special and true this violent interpretation of the Bible is.

That's not arbitrary at all.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (12/01/07 09:06 PM)


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
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. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704389 - 12/01/07 09:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7704393 - 12/01/07 09:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
You can do nothing if the Spirit doesn't bring you to conversion by applying the Word. The Spirit comes like the wind when and if and to whom He wills.




So basically, if I die tomorrow I'll go to hell because the Spirit never felt like visiting me to show me how magical and special and true this violent interpretation of the Bible is.

That's not arbitrary at all.



No one deserves mercy. So no charge can be laid that it wasn't fair that mercy was not given. You only get what you deserve.


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,654
. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704396 - 12/01/07 09:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704398 - 12/01/07 09:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

dr_gonz said:
how old are you?



42




as death approaches you slowly start to fear what may await.



bzzzt! Wrong!
I was converted at 35 and I was not concerned at all about my death. Why would I be concerned, I was an agnostic/atheist, no God, no punishment, no fear.


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
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. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704402 - 12/01/07 09:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704406 - 12/01/07 09:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
humans are the product of a chemical reaction. we dont choose to be here, therefore, we shouldnt be forced to believe or burn.



Salvation is not a choice, it is a decree of God's will.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704413 - 12/01/07 09:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm glad God likes you so much more than the rest of us.

Do you come to this forum to actually discuss philosophy and spirituality, or to tell people they're going to hell? I was actually going to contest what dr_gonz said originally but you changed my mind. Why do you have to be so hard to get along with?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704415 - 12/01/07 09:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
i'm *anxiously* awaiting to hear how the "spirit" appeared to you?



The Spirit abides with every believer. It doesn't magically appear as some great vision or something. The Spirit opens and applies the Word, and witnesses its presence with my spirit.


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Invisibledr_gonz

Registered: 08/18/03
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. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7704419 - 12/01/07 09:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7704428 - 12/01/07 09:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I'm glad God likes you so much more than the rest of us.

Do you come to this forum to actually discuss philosophy and spirituality, or to tell people they're going to hell? I was actually going to contest what dr_gonz said originally but you changed my mind. Why do you have to be so hard to get along with?



All are hell deserving sinners, all are worthy to be damned. The very fact that some are not damned is amazing.

I am hard to get along with because you resist the truth.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704438 - 12/01/07 09:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't resist shit. I didn't deny anything you said what so ever. I just asked a couple questions, which you have been unable to answer to my satisfaction.

It's sad how Christianity and dominator culture have almost become synonymous to us secular westerners. You have the forefathers of your own ideology to thank for the knee-jerk resistance you experience on this forum, fivepointer.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704440 - 12/01/07 09:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
christians are elitist people.



You sure don't understand Christian doctrine. Whoever pounded you with doctrine didn't bring you Christian doctrine.


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Invisibledr_gonz

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. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704450 - 12/01/07 09:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7704455 - 12/01/07 09:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I didn't resist shit. I didn't deny anything you said what so ever. I just asked a couple questions, which you have been unable to answer to my satisfaction.

It's sad how Christianity and dominator culture have almost become synonymous to us secular westerners. You have the forefathers of your own ideology to thank for the knee-jerk resistance you experience on this forum, fivepointer.




I've answered your questions. Your not satisfied well that's your problem.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704469 - 12/01/07 09:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
what are the major faults of, oh I don't know, say, Buddhism?



I don't know I don't study Buddhism.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704482 - 12/01/07 09:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

dr_gonz said:
what are the major faults of, oh I don't know, say, Buddhism?



I don't know I don't study Buddhism.




Good to know you considered all your options...

Are you a puppet account? This is just ridiculous.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Invisibledr_gonz

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. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704486 - 12/01/07 09:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Invisibledr_gonz

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. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7704489 - 12/01/07 09:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704493 - 12/01/07 09:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I like to assume stereotypes are untrue out of hand. They make everything gray.

People like this make it really hard.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704496 - 12/01/07 09:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
oh ok. so maybe, just maybe, Buddhism may be more (or less) logical than Christianity. Along with every other religion on earth.

This is the major problem with you fundamentalist christians. You should really look at everything with an open mind. know your options.



There is only one true God and only one true gospel. So no Christian will be considering other options.


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Invisibledr_gonz

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. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704503 - 12/01/07 09:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704509 - 12/01/07 09:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Christians are not agnostics, they actually believe certain things. I don't know why you are so amazed at this.


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704518 - 12/01/07 09:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Christians are not agnostics, they actually believe certain things. I don't know why you are so amazed at this.




Fair enough, I guess we're just more amazed that you apparently went 35 years without giving Buddhism a single thought.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7704530 - 12/01/07 09:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I was an atheist, I considered all religion BS.


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Offlineshakercee
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704538 - 12/01/07 09:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think you need to stop talking to yourself, and consider other's experiences and viewpoints, but then :shrug:


--------------------
Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane


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Invisibledr_gonz

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. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704541 - 12/01/07 09:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704551 - 12/01/07 09:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
honestly. what's the point in discussing religion with people like you? you do not LISTEN. you only spew your preprogrammed rhetoric time and time again.



I discussed the doctrinal point you brought up. You wouldn't accept it. So who is the preprogrammed one?


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Invisibledr_gonz

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. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704557 - 12/01/07 09:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704566 - 12/01/07 09:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
hahahahahahaha. "i wouldnt accept it"

so you're automatically correct?



Yes.


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704567 - 12/01/07 10:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

fivepointer's logic is pretty good, his arguments given his beliefs are consistent.


Edited by falcon (12/01/07 10:01 PM)


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Invisibledr_gonz

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. [Re: falcon]
    #7704575 - 12/01/07 10:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704587 - 12/01/07 10:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Given his beliefs his logic is strong.

His beliefs, who cares.


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Invisibledr_gonz

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. [Re: falcon]
    #7704589 - 12/01/07 10:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704595 - 12/01/07 10:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
apparently they aren't his beliefs. they're more like ABSOLUTE TRUTH



Now you are seeing the light!


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704596 - 12/01/07 10:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Seems that way.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: falcon]
    #7704604 - 12/01/07 10:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Why would someone believe something if they didn't believe it to be true?


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704605 - 12/01/07 10:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Now you are seeing the light!

Like walking into a train tunnel. I saw the light.


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Invisibledr_gonz

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. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704610 - 12/01/07 10:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: fivepointer]
    #7704611 - 12/01/07 10:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

:shrug: Got no argument from me. Your free to believe whatever you wish.


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Invisibledr_gonz

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. [Re: falcon]
    #7704612 - 12/01/07 10:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704615 - 12/01/07 10:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

dr_gonz said:
apparently they aren't his beliefs. they're more like ABSOLUTE TRUTH



Now you are seeing the light!




JESUS HAS SHOWN ME THE WAY!!!! Rejoice. Wow, now that I've seen the light I have so much to consider! Which flavor of christianity should I try first?!?!?!? Pentacostal? Baptist? Lutheran? Catholic?

This is so exciting!!!!! PRAISE GOD!!!!!



If He showed you the way you would know the path and which ways are false and which are true.


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704627 - 12/01/07 10:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

but YOU aren't!

Life would be so much easier.


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Invisibledr_gonz

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. [Re: falcon]
    #7704631 - 12/01/07 10:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704643 - 12/01/07 10:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

What's the orange stuff on it's nose?


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Invisibledr_gonz

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. [Re: falcon]
    #7704647 - 12/01/07 10:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7704651 - 12/01/07 10:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Sheep spook easily, CAPS will do it.


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: fivepointer]
    #7705386 - 12/02/07 03:10 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

So what if I believe in the Christian god and in the Jewish god and in the Muslim god ?
It's all the same god, so why do they smash their heads ?
Because of fundamentalism.
-> fundamentalism = human BS and only leads to separation of that what was once ONE.
-> EVIL

qed


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7705516 - 12/02/07 03:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

dr_gonz said:
According to christianity all "non believers" go to hell. so essentially a guy who just doesn't believe in christ but who leads a relatively normal life is going to go to the same hell and receive the same punishment as people who rape children.

yeah, i can see the fucking logic in that.




The ancient Egyptians said Hell is in the Draco constellation near the pole star,
There, the hippo Taweret and her consort Set devour all souls found unworthy.



In the judgment scene of The book of going forth by day, (Egyptian Book of the Dead)
Taweret and Set are combined into one soul devouring beast, Ammit, who awaits behind Thoth.



It makes sense to me that if there is an afterlife and some sort of judgment,
that undesirable souls would simply be deleted rather than forced to suffer for eternity.

"I guess the Egyptians figured non-existence was punishment enough." - J.A. West


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: fivepointer]
    #7705610 - 12/02/07 06:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

dr_gonz said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

dr_gonz said:
apparently they aren't his beliefs. they're more like ABSOLUTE TRUTH



Now you are seeing the light!




JESUS HAS SHOWN ME THE WAY!!!! Rejoice. Wow, now that I've seen the light I have so much to consider! Which flavor of christianity should I try first?!?!?!? Pentacostal? Baptist? Lutheran? Catholic?

This is so exciting!!!!! PRAISE GOD!!!!!



If He showed you the way you would know the path and which ways are false and which are true.






--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlineshakercee
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7705618 - 12/02/07 06:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

:rofl2:

Oh, there was a glitch in the timetravel program. Right now he is in the Age of Dinosaurs.  So, the second coming is :thumbdown:


--------------------
Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: shakercee]
    #7705623 - 12/02/07 06:28 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shakercee said:
:rofl2:

Oh, there was a glitch in the timetravel program. Right now he is in the Age of Dinosaurs.  So, the second coming is :thumbdown:




The truth is... he got so pissed that day because of the people laughing at him, that he pushed a wrong button on the time travel machine and now he's stuck in the past... What happened is that some luvin' hardcore Christians decided we should follow Jesus' example and be stuch in the past as well :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlineshakercee
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7705632 - 12/02/07 06:36 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The truth is... he got so pissed that day because of the people laughing at him, that he pushed a wrong button on the time travel machine and now he's stuck in the past... What happened is that some luvin' hardcore Christians decided we should follow Jesus' example and be stuch in the past as well :smirk:




:rofl:

Lastest i heard is the that pope is not that keen to join the bandawagon..He very much loves the present age. :hehehe:  No power if he goes to the past.


--------------------
Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: shakercee]
    #7705653 - 12/02/07 06:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

That's because child porn is more accessible these days :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7705735 - 12/02/07 07:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

:rofl2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinecube talk
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: Silversoul]
    #7705755 - 12/02/07 07:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

adjust said:
aren't references to hell actually talking about a real place in isreal?

i think i read that somewhere, that the actual mention of hell really means a place on earth that exists, but i could be wrong



The word "Hell" does not appear in the Bible. The word "hell" is actually derived from "Hel," the land of the dead in Norse mythology(except for those warriors who died in battle and went to Valhalla).

There are different things in the Bible which are often all conflated as one single place. What you are referring to here is Gehenna, a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where trash was burned. By Jesus' time, the Jews had conflated Gehenna with a place of suffering after death for sinners. Interestingly, the Jews did not believe it to be a place of permanent suffering and punishment, except for the worst of sinners. Rather, they saw it as a temporary place of purification where one's sins were burned away.

Another place Jesus mentions is Hades. This the land of the dead in Greek mythology(interesting that Jesus would reference pagan mythology -- apparently the mixture of Christianity with paganism goes all the way back to the beginning).

A third place often conflated with Hell is Sheol, which is basically the Jewish equivalent of Hades. Both Hades and Sheol were not originally seen as places of eternal suffering. They were simply where one's soul went when one died. I think purgatory or limbo would be better parallels for them than the fire and brimstone that is usually associated with Hell in the popular imagination.

Then, finally, there is the "Lake of Fire" referenced in the Book of Revelation. This, along with Gehenna, is where most of our imagery of Hell comes from, and only in Revelation is it treated as a place of eternal suffering.




We always tend to think of fire as bad, just a thought came to my mind this very second...

What if the fire is a reference to the glory that will shine out of us, like a fire from within.


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: cube talk]
    #7705767 - 12/02/07 08:07 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

We always tend to think of fire as bad, just a thought came to my mind this very second...

What if the fire is a reference to the glory that will shine out of us, like a fire from within.





Is that the reason why they burnt the witches at the stake?


--------------------
Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: cube talk]
    #7706433 - 12/02/07 12:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

cube talk said:
We always tend to think of fire as bad, just a thought came to my mind this very second...

What if the fire is a reference to the glory that will shine out of us, like a fire from within.



Actually, in the Biblical tradition(and in pretty much every tradition) fire has a dual meaning. While being associated with the flames of Hell, fire is also associated with the light of the Holy Spirit. However, I don't think you can read the Book of Revelation and conclude that that's what the Lake of Fire refers to. Naturally, throughout human history, fire has been both a blessing and a curse.


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Offlinecube talk
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: shakercee]
    #7707141 - 12/02/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shakercee said:
Quote:

We always tend to think of fire as bad, just a thought came to my mind this very second...

What if the fire is a reference to the glory that will shine out of us, like a fire from within.





Is that the reason why they burnt the witches at the stake?





Is that the reason the cavemen used it to keep warm?


--------------------


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: cube talk]
    #7710099 - 12/03/07 09:56 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

Why is christian religion so simialar to the others before it? Watch this movie and it will explain everything about the misunderstandings of all religions. "Sun" of the father....just check it out


--------------------


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InvisibleCameron
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: ZShroom]
    #7713877 - 12/04/07 02:23 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I've always wondered: if God created all human beings on the Earth, spoke with Man, and sent prophets to carry his word (which involved instructions to be followed by all men that would earn them passage into Heaven?), did he also send prophets to people outside of Europe/Asia? What of the native peoples of North America who could not possibly have been baptized or learned of Jesus Christ before European invaders brought the word of God by sword in the seventeenth century?

I guess what I'm asking is: what exactly constitutes 'righteousness'? Did the natives of early North America and every other race/region of people go to Hell because they did not follow the code set by the Bible? Did God create us in expectation that we would follow certain guidelines, and if so, why allow such a large percentage of the population to live in ignorance of said guidelines?

Those questions are aimed at knowledgeable Christians out of pure curiosity. Maybe not the right thread but what the Hell.


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Invisibledr_gonz

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. [Re: Cameron]
    #7716061 - 12/04/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

.


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Re: christians and their logic [Re: dr_gonz]
    #7716441 - 12/04/07 05:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cameron said:
I've always wondered: if God created all human beings on the Earth, spoke with Man, and sent prophets to carry his word (which involved instructions to be followed by all men that would earn them passage into Heaven?), did he also send prophets to people outside of Europe/Asia? What of the native peoples of North America who could not possibly have been baptized or learned of Jesus Christ before European invaders brought the word of God by sword in the seventeenth century?

I guess what I'm asking is: what exactly constitutes 'righteousness'? Did the natives of early North America and every other race/region of people go to Hell because they did not follow the code set by the Bible? Did God create us in expectation that we would follow certain guidelines, and if so, why allow such a large percentage of the population to live in ignorance of said guidelines?

Those questions are aimed at knowledgeable Christians out of pure curiosity. Maybe not the right thread but what the Hell.





Yeah, watch them answer that in a rational manner....:rolleyes:

Hey Fivepointy, 'splain it to da man!


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Edited by SoY (12/04/07 05:11 PM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christians and their logic [Re: Cameron]
    #7716785 - 12/04/07 06:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I've always wondered: if God created all human beings on the Earth, spoke with Man, and sent prophets to carry his word (which involved instructions to be followed by all men that would earn them passage into Heaven?), did he also send prophets to people outside of Europe/Asia? What of the native peoples of North America who could not possibly have been baptized or learned of Jesus Christ before European invaders brought the word of God by sword in the seventeenth century?

No prophets were sent to far reaches of the world outside of the scripture. Those outside OT Israel, or Native Americans, or millions in tribes in Africa heard no gospel ever. God never decreed that they should become saved.


I guess what I'm asking is: what exactly constitutes 'righteousness'? Did the natives of early North America and every other race/region of people go to Hell because they did not follow the code set by the Bible? Did God create us in expectation that we would follow certain guidelines, and if so, why allow such a large percentage of the population to live in ignorance of said guidelines?

Man is condemned in the first transgression of Adam by imputation and a fallen personal nature since the Fall. No amount of personal efforts at righteousness can erase the original imputed sin. Fallen man has written in his heart some recognition of right from wrong thus making him without excuse, however he is naturally ignorant of God's righteousness and requirement for perfection. The Law shows Man his inherent nature. The Law is given not so that man can become justified by keeping it, but that he can see his absolute inability to keep it, and cry out for salvation from its demands. Christ kept the Law perfectly for His people, and this perfect righteousness is imputed them, and made real to them by faith.


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