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 bandaid
clever title
Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 340
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 How do you view nature so blissfully? 
#3001782 - 08/13/04 04:57 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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This is an age old question but I havent seen it posted on the shroomery so heres my bit.
Im not trying to suck the life out of ppls sense of nature, but I always found it sort of ironic when ppl say they try and find peace in nature when nature is by nature extremely cruel. You can view it as chaotic or not, and any of those views doesnt necessarily have to be bad, but with all the obvious agony that goes on, on a normal basis, such as poisoning, suffocation, bone crushing ect ect, how do you find yourself at "peace" with it?. Its all devised in nature, such a painfull form of existance, obviously the only one we're aware of but still, makes you think of what could be or could have been, and maybe even will be. As I see humans the only ones correcting all of this chaos, maybe not in the present but give it 1000yrs  . Maybe we where put here to make things well given enough time, or maybe not.
So.. how do you find yourself at "peace" with nature?, as I cant seem to grasp that concept very well at the moment.
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 Source
Remainder of anUnbalancedEquation
Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 667
Loc: Outer Darkness
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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 Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: bandaid]
#3001893 - 08/13/04 05:33 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I wouldn't necessarily say nature is 'cruel', that implies that animals etc. enjoy the infliction of pain on others (a trait only humans seem to possess). But nature IS brutal and is obviously a struggle for survival. I really don't have a problem with that. I feel closer to the source of creation in nature (whatever that source may be) simply because of the lack of human invented distractions.
I find myself at peace in nature because I accept the brutality of nature...just as it is. Everything moves...it's all just the transformation of energy from one form into another. The grass becomes the deer, the deer becomes the mountain lion, the mountain lion becomes the vulture, the vulture becomes the bacteria, the bacteria becomes the compost, the compost becomes the grass. Something like that.
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What you're searching for is what's searching.
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AbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
Registered: 07/08/04
Posts: 3,509
Loc: The Sea
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 Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: bandaid]
#3001922 - 08/13/04 05:51 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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How i find myself at peace with nature:
Simple. Natural. Naturally.
Nature in itself expresses in true form the concept of Infinity.
As Source was saying. In nature, there is a perfect balance. the spiral, the circle. Perfect.
This is how i find myself at peace with nature. Untouched, virgin. There is nothing that "man" can do to take the great gifts of mother nature away from me.
Nature is brutal, I am in South Florida right now, as we speak, in a hurricane, and the power just came back on. There is a viscious cycle of nature, but key word there is nature. natural. the natural cycle and way of things.
I find myself at peace with nature through the corruption of other cycles. Brainwashing, programming, schooling institutions, politics (Hollywood for ugly people), and any cycle that man and scientist try to unleash, most indefinitely comes out with an uncertainty.
IE-Blue Moon, Leap year, (in chemistry) the uncertainty sign before each lab prediction, etc.
Nature, in its simplist form, represents truth. For our world is slowly mutating to the concrete jungle.
NO BIG BROTHER, you cannot defeat Nature. Mother earth is pissed, and right now she is shouting all over Florida, and i think it is because there aren't return amounts on cans and bottles here (No one here is motivated to recycle, so she is gonna get her lash on)...
You know, in my opinion 
-Ares
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A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.
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AbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
Registered: 07/08/04
Posts: 3,509
Loc: The Sea
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 Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: bandaid]
#3001944 - 08/13/04 05:58 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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And by looking at your post icon, I find it odd you would make such a post.
The yinandyang...perfect, balance. 6-9 complimentary.
Also did you know that the number 9 is the only number that can give life back to any other number?
Example:
9x2=18 1+8=9
9x3=27 2+7=9
9x4=36 3+6=9
9x5=45 4+5=9
9x6=54 5+4=9
9x7=63 6+3=9
9x8=72 7+2=9
Or something cool like that
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A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.
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bandaid
clever title
Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 340
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Interesting math. I put that icon up because I accept but not happily that I come from the "monsters" womb (nature), and I know Im capable of doing good things so I figured that would be appropriate to make ppl think a little more on the ying-yang thing, good to see it worked .
Putting it my way I'll just consider myself an associate to the monster, working with it at all times but never becoming its friend  .
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AbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
Registered: 07/08/04
Posts: 3,509
Loc: The Sea
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 Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: bandaid]
#3002097 - 08/13/04 06:49 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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WE ALL CREATE OUR OWN REALITY, AND YOUR IDEALS AND THEOLOGIES ARE JUST AS TRUE AS THEY ARE FALSE TO MINE AND ANYONE ELSES. THATS THE GREAT THING ABOUT THEORY.
I RESPECT EVERYONE AND WHAT THEY THINK.
BUT I WILL NOT COMPLY UNTIL GIVEN DAMN GOOD REASON TOO
NICE THEORY ON THE YIN-AND-YANG, AND IF NATURE IS IN UBER MONSTER FORM IN YOUR VISION, AWESOME!
NATURE MONSTER
NATURE MOTHER
NATURE MYSTERY
IT IS ALL GOOD, IN ALL FORMS, EVERYONE IS JUST FUCKIN' AWESOME!
-SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS
-aRES
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A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: bandaid]
#3002304 - 08/13/04 08:35 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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nature tears itself apart, but if u lookmdeeply there are evolving connections, partnership, that rises through the destruction.
For instance, the evolution of conscious beings, leading to (perhaps) us (so far on Terra).
How about your own cells as part of that process. It appears that the mitochondria, traditionally viewed as the powerhouse of the animal cell, were once a separate organisms. At some point in pre-history they formed a symbiosis with plant-type cells and entered into them. Eventually to the depth that they became one organism.
How about the pilot fish that live on whales, cleaning them for a living. Together the pair of species operate in total harmony.
There are many examples of this kind of partnership within nature. Examples of symbiosis in progress.
however like u say - there is also untold brutality.
Nature gives life - nature takes life.
N ature overcomes duality
The energy flows
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: bandaid]
#3002591 - 08/13/04 10:09 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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yet another great post today...S&P is on fire!!! 
have you ever lived in the woods for say more than six months at a time? you should!! it may be tough at first, but you will find that the concrete jungle we surround ourselves with is a lot tougher and even more brutal than nature because we are in charge of civilization.
Remember...we are not the caretakers of this planet, this planet takes care of us. without a certain number of this, and a certain number of that...we wouldn't be here.
Have you ever wondered in the woods and looked at the ancient trees. Ever sit down on the ground and realize, I am actually sitting upon the earth (as opposed to concrete). HAve you ever dangled your feet in a creek and feeling the water flow? Have you ever heard the song of the birds sing...or the crickets and frogs at night...the stars above putting on a show night after night...the wind as it blows the spirits of earth through you. this is the peace i feel.
and most importantly, ther is also complete silence. no buzzing, hissing, conjestion, or all the other crap that our civilized world brings to us.
maybe I'm jsut crazy, but I feel nature has a lot to teach, especially about stillness. hehe I'll end this ramble now 
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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2Experimental
Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 18,073
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: kaiowas]
#3002612 - 08/13/04 10:12 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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 to both of yall
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension 
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: bandaid]
#3002693 - 08/13/04 10:31 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Nature is hardcore and that is what makes it nature. It has to be brutal or else it would not evolve, as chaos and creation are two parts of the whole that contribute to learning/wisdom/evolution. Material reality is the foundation for the spirital world, and 'nature' as it exists in the 3rd dimension, is a perfect representation of the great balance between two colliding forces. It's perfect by itself.
What do you mean poisoning, suffocation, bone crushing, etc etc.. that sounds more like cruel things humans do to each other than something nature does. If you are referring to nature 'killing' humans or animals, that is simply a fact of physical life, there must also be death. But with the death there is new life , and this being the cycle of nature.. life and death, creation and destruction..
Pain is just a fact of material life. With a physical body and material senses, one must feel pain to know if something is wrong with the body, or else we would die too easily. Pain is a good thing. The whole purpose of living material incarnations is to get the entire range of the human experience.. the good and the bad, or at least, what is perceived as such.
But with all the death and chaos in nature there is at least that much life and beauty. Peace comes from within, and if one is at peace with oneself, they can be at peace in the harshest environment.
I see humans committing much more atrocious acts than I have ever seen nature commit. Least we forget... if nature did not exist, neither would we. We would be wise to take a few lessons from it.
As for me, I find myself most at peace in a lush forest.
I'll take a few trees and some plants over a dirty, crowded, concrete jugnle anyday.
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TimeTraveler
Another
Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 46
Loc: I'm right here.
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: bandaid]
#3002847 - 08/13/04 11:03 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I view nature blissfully because I recognize that it is the source of all things that I know as the World Around Me. Civilization is comfortable, yes, but it also has an element of nastiness involved in it that nature does not. Sure, nature is cruel in ways, but as others have said, it is always in balance, and with death brings new life.
In society, people linger on until they are 60-100 years old, and as new children come into the world, less and less of the old ones are dying. Now i'm not complaining about living a long life, but if nature would have it her way we'd die off well before the current life expectancy rate. So, here we are in society, living outside of nature and sucking up all of our own resources. How can I not view nature blissfully?
-T
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The air is cut with cyanide.
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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& Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: Shroomism]
#3002904 - 08/13/04 11:16 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Do you guys not view humans, or our civilisation, as a part of nature? They way you talk seems to me to make it sound like you feel we are somehow unnatural.
I think we are totally natural, and all our creation and destruction is natural.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: CJay]
#3002919 - 08/13/04 11:21 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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well when someone says nature, I think rocks, water, wind, plants, trees, earth, sky, stars, space.. for some reason my mind classifies animals and humans in different categories. I think we are perfectly natural.
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2Experimental
Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 18,073
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: CJay]
#3002950 - 08/13/04 11:37 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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no offense but I hate when people pull the ' humans are natural and whatever we do, good or bad, for the planet/ourselves is how it is supposed to be, because this is how it is, so it's ok'
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TimeTraveler
Another
Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 46
Loc: I'm right here.
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: CJay]
#3002962 - 08/13/04 11:41 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think we are natural in origin, but we exist outside the balance of nature, with the exception being using natural resources. So I made the point that in society it is sort of a seperate balance that is not all dependant on nature. Nature has its own balance that to me is beautiful because it is so different than what I see going on around me on a day to day basis.
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The air is cut with cyanide.
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 deff
just love everyone
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,382
Loc: clarity 
Last seen: 3 minutes, 45 seconds
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: TimeTraveler]
#3002981 - 08/13/04 11:47 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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It isn't that we aren't 'natural', it's that our common idea of the term is impossible to escape, and quite formless. Explain natural, and you will see how malleable the term is, not because of the external conditions, but because of the internal illusion behind the concept.
Basically, the term was created out of an illusioned perception of the world, yet we try to apply this illusion to the truth of the universe. Natural is nothing more than a symbol used exclusively by humans as a form of duality between them and the not-them.
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TimeTraveler
Another
Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 46
Loc: I'm right here.
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: deff]
#3003029 - 08/14/04 12:05 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Deff...I guess i see your point there, but without man and all of his places, wouldnt everything be what our concept of natural is? Using the symbols logic, nothing is anything unless we label it as such. I think "nature" is just everything physical, biological and tangible that has not been created by the hands of an intelligent being (humans).
Do hippos or elephants build houses out of trees that they cut down and shaped into lumber?
Do gorillas have steel mills where they make beams that eventually are used to make skyscrapers?
I by know means think I speak the truth, i'm just raising some questions here : )
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The air is cut with cyanide.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: TimeTraveler]
#3003065 - 08/14/04 12:17 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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are atomic bombs natural?
is making a plant illegal natural?
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deff
just love everyone
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,382
Loc: clarity
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: Shroomism]
#3003127 - 08/14/04 12:35 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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"that has not been created by the hands of an intelligent being (humans)"
We cannot create. We are only capable of temporarily transforming already existant energy. This energy is """""natural""""".
"are atomic bombs natural?
is making a plant illegal natural?"
It would depend entirely on your definition of natural. If it is anything not temporarily arranged by a human, then no. Otherwise, it must certainly is as """"""natural"""""" as anything else. The idea of natural comes from the illusion of seperation from the external.
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deff
just love everyone
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,382
Loc: clarity
Last seen: 3 minutes, 45 seconds
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: deff]
#3003139 - 08/14/04 12:38 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Oops missed some...
"Do hippos or elephants build houses out of trees that they cut down and shaped into lumber?
Do gorillas have steel mills where they make beams that eventually are used to make skyscrapers?"
No. Do humans suck water into their trunks and wash themselves? Do humans live in trees? These are just characteristics of these species, by applying a label such as natural it is obvious that you exist within one of these species and are using it as a way of illusioning yourself into the belief of seperation from the universe.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: bandaid]
#3003147 - 08/14/04 12:44 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Nature is not cruel, it is simply unyeilding. Fight against it and you will be destroyed, but flow with it and you shall be as nature intended.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#3003161 - 08/14/04 12:49 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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exactly
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deff
just love everyone
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,382
Loc: clarity
Last seen: 3 minutes, 45 seconds
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: Shroomism]
#3003185 - 08/14/04 12:54 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Even if you fight against it, that struggle is still intentional through the chain of cause and effect that is nature.
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Lazerouth
Drunkard
Registered: 10/15/00
Posts: 1,091
Loc: England
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: bandaid]
#3003440 - 08/14/04 02:46 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Nature is chaotic for sure but it's all in harmony.
Saaay if a snake eats a mouse. The mouse will be in alot of pain but the snake is deriving great pleasure from it's meal. Just as I'm sure scavengers will when the snake eventually dies and gets eaten.
For every action etc. I think it seems quite peaceful if you think of it like that.
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Zoso_UK
Zepoholic
Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 291
Loc: Neverland
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Lazerouth]
#3003639 - 08/14/04 04:35 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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The chief difference between everything organic on this planet and us humans is that everything else, like people have said, lives in harmony and has something to offer the environment. I know its a generalisation to say all humans don't live in harmony with nature or their Tao since there still exist an albeit diminishing population of tribes in various eastern countries who have a far better understanding of the importance of living with nature rather than on or against it. Living in London means I get a pretty good view of how disrespectful to nature humans can be :P
As for why I view nature blissfully... the site of a great forest with an ancient past (at least those that have thus far escaped human greed) is far more breathtaking than a city full of concrete and pollution. In the former, a variety of animals live together to some extent symbiotically, while in the latter, humans lead often angry lives which, if they do have direction, invariably leads to satisfying greedy appetites. Now, whether the other species in nature would be doing the same to the planet if they possessed our "intellect" and a dexterity, no one will know.
Sorry if that was a ramble...jst woke up. This thread actually finally got me to join this board
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3004062 - 08/14/04 10:41 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Fantastic.... welcome aboard
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deff
just love everyone
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,382
Loc: clarity
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Shroomism]
#3004134 - 08/14/04 11:12 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I hardly call our role in nature "bad". Sure we may be destroying previous resourses and species, but change is inevitable. There is no way we will actually *destroy* the earth though, that's impossible.
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Zoso_UK
Zepoholic
Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 291
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: deff]
#3004260 - 08/14/04 12:16 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well, we are already destroying the earth and inventing new ways of doing it all the time :P
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Mixomatosis
great ape
Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: bandaid]
#3004298 - 08/14/04 12:34 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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The other day I came across an interesting scene.. 3 paralyzed baby squirrels lay on the ground, evidently thrown out of a tree by a full-grown squirrel. He was just finishing off the first one when I showed up, and the other two were barely moving. It took about 5 minutes for the squirrel to systematically kill them 1 by 1 by chewing their throats. When he was done, he went back to the first one and started canibalizing it.
Anyway,
it is always in balance
This is a common misconception. It's purported by environmentalists who contrast humanity's destruction of natural environments to the delicate harmonies of symbiosis. The truth is nature is in constant flux, never in balance. Temperatures change, mountains slide, forests burn.. there is no steady perfect state. Whenever a discussion comes up about humans destroying the environment, I like to point out that hundreds of millions of years ago almost every species on the planet earth was wiped out by blue green algae's release of the extremely toxic gas we call oxygen.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: deff]
#3004334 - 08/14/04 12:49 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm not worried about destroying the earth, I'm worried about destroying each other.
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Zoso_UK
Zepoholic
Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 291
Loc: Neverland
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Shroomism]
#3006076 - 08/15/04 05:12 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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nature is both in balance and in flux simultaneously. the two needn't be mutually exclusive. the point is that no matter what change nature goes through, a balance is always achieved.
and shroomism, i couldn't agree more 
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: bandaid]
#3006168 - 08/15/04 05:40 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think the sense of peace comes from viewing the beauty inherent in nature, along with embracing the fact that death/destruction is a part of nature.
Also, it seems rather pointless to separate nature from the creations of man; man is himself a part of nature so his creations are also a part of nature.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Zoso_UK
Zepoholic
Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 291
Loc: Neverland
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: trendal]
#3006186 - 08/15/04 05:44 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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If that is true, then it is pointless to separate the countryside from a city?
Also, would you say that all our synthetic compounds like plastic are a part of nature?
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3006210 - 08/15/04 05:55 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Separation is pointless. Grouping is not: the creations of man are a subgroup of nature.
Also, would you say that all our synthetic compounds like plastic are a part of nature?
They exist, don't they? Is not everything in existence a part of nature?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Zoso_UK
Zepoholic
Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 291
Loc: Neverland
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: trendal]
#3008205 - 08/16/04 05:11 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Not necessarily, what exists that is created by nature or a natural product of nature is a part of nature. However, synthetic compounds that are in no way naturally-occurring cannot be considered a part of nature, for the simple reason that they are not naturally-occurring.
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bandaid
clever title
Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 340
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Shroomism]
#3008301 - 08/16/04 07:21 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomism said:
What do you mean poisoning, suffocation, bone crushing, etc etc.. that sounds more like cruel things humans do to each other than something nature does.
Its interesting you put it that way because these are regular things animals do to other animals every day. Its as if your trying to seperate the bad in nature as if it wasnt there and not accepting it, Im not saying your doing that but it sounds like it.
I dont think I actualy have to tell you which animals do these things, or do I.
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kaiowas
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: trendal]
#3008327 - 08/16/04 07:50 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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"Separation is pointless. Grouping is not: the creations of man are a subgroup of nature."
a very distinct point that I thought long and hard about. humans need to catagorize things in order to make sense of them.
on the other hand, an oil spill from a ship that goes under killing many animals in the water and air i find hard to "group" with nature, but maybe that's just me. sure man is a part of nature, but does that mean we are to assume that man's creations are also a part of it?
more thinking needed.... 
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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trendal
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: kaiowas]
#3008374 - 08/16/04 08:42 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Is man "naturally occuring"?
If so, does that make his creations "naturally occuring"?
If humans exist naturally, in the form that they do (with our creative urge) then is it not a natural occurance that we would "create" things?
Yes, it happens that (usually) one person or a small group of people are "responsible" for the creation of something "artificial". I don't think who "created" it is important, because someone would have. The "creation" is a natural byproduct of human existence, which is itself considered "natural".
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: kaiowas]
#3008379 - 08/16/04 08:44 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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The separation of "man-made" from "natural" probably comes from the viewpoint that we are not a part of nature. I think if you see humans as a true piece of nature you must realize that our creations are also a part of nature.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Zoso_UK
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: trendal]
#3008389 - 08/16/04 08:51 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, man is naturally occurring.
No, his creations are not thus automatically naturally occurring.
There are natural processes in the world and artificial processes. Indeed, these artificial processes (e.g. plastic) might be the product of a natural process (e.g. man). However, no matter how hard we try, we will never find these artificial processes occurring in nature. Although almost everything artificial that man produces in some way mimics a corresponding natural process, this does not make man's artifical creations natural. Particularly since they invariably subdue and destroy nature.
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Zoso_UK
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3008394 - 08/16/04 08:54 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Basically, I completely agree with you that man is a part of nature. However, what distinguishes our species from every other is that we produce things that do not naturally exist. Thus they are certainly not natural.
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CJay
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3008473 - 08/16/04 09:51 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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The things do exist naturally, we just put them through a kind of mental filter and manifest a change of form in them.
Most animals do this to some degree when creating their homes etc.
Of course they do not do it to the degree we do, the level of specialism we possess in this area is (as you say) probably our most defining feature as a species of this planet.
It is also what will lead us to the stars, taking the biosphere with us and propagating the galaxy with biological life, using our skills in accelerating the flowering of our solarsystem and beyond.
And making a great story along the way!
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CJay
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas; shroomism [Re: 2Experimental]
#3008503 - 08/16/04 10:11 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I disagree - I think that though we may call things 'unnatural' (like atom bombs + making plants illegal) this is actually a part of the process of nature. Steps on the path, though some may be detestable.
Just like 'natural disasters' which can be virtually unimaginably destructive.
Our mind(s) are a part of nature, and our culture(s) are part of an evolving entelechy type being that is coming through us.
Most of our problems as humans are caused by the fact that people do not appreciate the relativity of their culture, and take their particular cultural entity point to be an end point.
We become knotted as individuals, and a species. This is where submersion in the vegetable mind matrix helps by untangling such knots and breaking down our imagined separation, and cultural conditioning.
This is all part of the process of nature as it creates us as a species. We are a very young species, perhaps only a million years old, I personally don't think we can classify ourselves as a truly adult human species until we truly begin spacefaring.
It does often appear that we are out of sync with nature, however the character of nature is that it is cyclic, and our imbalance (I believe) will likewise prove to be so. Many species get 'out of balance', they use up their resources since the population gets too big. Then they die off, only to recouperate and begin regrowth.
Sure we are running it to the wire - but Mamma Nature is right behind us.
Edited by CJay (08/16/04 10:28 AM)
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Zoso_UK
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas; shroomism [Re: CJay]
#3008532 - 08/16/04 10:28 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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The chemicals and materials that we have and do produce do not exist in nature. We mix elements in ways that are not to be found in nature. It is not merely a change of form.
I like your idea of spacefaring and I think it would be great but your Roddenberry optimism fails to consider how badly we look after our own world let alone what we'd do to others. Humans see this planet as their planet and hate sharing so I hope we don't survive long enough to ravage the rest of the universe (and with the way the American Empire is going, humanity may well not live to see the end of the century).
Btw, what other species has become 'out of balance'?
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CJay
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas; shroomism [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3008641 - 08/16/04 11:02 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
The chemicals and materials that we have and do produce do not exist in nature. We mix elements in ways that are not to be found in nature. It is not merely a change of form.
It is not merely a change of form, it is a change of form manifested through the use of our mental filters and manual dexterity - both of those being gifts of nature.
Rabbits populations become 'out of balance' for one, when left to nature's devices. Their populations grow to a ridiculous level as they ravage their immediate environment, and famine and disease eventually knock their populations back down.
The hope is that we humans will not follow this J curve, we will become conscious enough to hit a level they call an S curve and exist within our limits. Either way, it will be the natural way of things.
I do not have some Roddenbury like optimisum, besides most of the guy's stories are about 'unnatural' things like wholesale war betwen humanoid populations.
I feel that as with all of the cycles of nature, things will revolve. Perhaps thwere will be some kind of golden age, however I doubt it will last forever. Before long another epoch will come and swallow that.
We have reached the planetary envelope, our level of technological innovation is going beyond the level our planet can handle. It would do a lot of good if we could get our asses in gear and get off it. In space itself the things we do on the planet would damage nothing. Consider the fact that in space radiation levels are already at unappreciably dangerous levels, and biological life cannot exist. If we were to create off planet environments we would be introducing biologicval life where there is currently none. If we produced things that are pollutants on earth they would be swallowed up by the immesurable vacumn of space.
In time our inginuity and our evolving intellect/consciousness will overcome the difficulties as they come up. Our big problem right now is the prevailance of 'leaders' on this planet who adopt the reptillian (mammalian at best) base line. Obsessed with power and territory they cage us all on this ball we could already be resourcing for from asteroids and off planet sources.
I personally believe we are kind of terrified of leaving the mother planet, as her children we cling to her skirt - but now it is time to face the big wide universe. The adventure and story it offers.
We will surely cause destruction, but we will also bring life. Consider if we terraformed Mars - an entire biosphere could exist up there within a century or two. This is the kind of thing our skills can lead to.
I don't think we are heading for a utopia, perhaps a pragmatopia for a while at least. Maybe for longer. Sure we may not make it, but then the Earth will begin again to flower and once more will eventually produce a creature like us to carry her spawn forth.
We are evolving at quite a rate as a species, and so are our ideas on how to exist in harmony with nature at a technologically advanced level. This is now the main thrust of science and technological achievement. As a species we are conscious of our plight, and wareness is the first step to trancendence.
I feel that going into space will be a life changing experience for most humans, consider the astronauts who have been into space. It is well documented that commonly they go up military men/women, and come back with all these fluffy outlooks.
Seeing the entire Earth as this tiny blob is a major chnge of perspective. National boundries and cultural argument fade into insignificance when the Earth is viewed like this. We are as a planet but a speck in the night sky. That is extremely humbling and distinctly psychedellic.
We are moving into a time when the old conditioning which (naturally) holds back our evolution to this state and relies on monkey mind must be overcome as we accept the alien mind we can (naturally) evolve into.
Sure we may fuck up - but that's what adds life's natural tension - nothing is certain. Or is it?
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Zoso_UK
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas; s [Re: CJay]
#3008766 - 08/16/04 11:41 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thank you very much for that post A very interesting read. I do hope you are right. As for my stories about wholesale war, however, I wouldn't say that is entirely unnatural since one of the few constants that has defined modern humans is war and I would say it is a natural, defining attribute. If we can change that then humanity could do great things.
Only one other thing I will say concerning your recognition that as a species we are conscious of our plight. Although it is the first step to ridding ourselves of the causes, humanity has instead made many decisions to the contrary. The people with real power in this world, while aware of environmental destruction, tend not to care and exploit the earth more and more. Although I hope we will find a solution and that may well conceivably lie in space, I wouldn't hold your breath :P
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trendal
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3009257 - 08/16/04 02:11 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zoso_UK said:
Yes, man is naturally occurring.
No, his creations are not thus automatically naturally occurring.
There are natural processes in the world and artificial processes. Indeed, these artificial processes (e.g. plastic) might be the product of a natural process (e.g. man). However, no matter how hard we try, we will never find these artificial processes occurring in nature. Although almost everything artificial that man produces in some way mimics a corresponding natural process, this does not make man's artifical creations natural. Particularly since they invariably subdue and destroy nature.
Are diamonds naturally occuring? Would they exist if it were not for the naturally occuring processes which cause them to form?
Does oxygen exist naturally in the universe? Would it exist at all if it were not for stars "changing" hydrogen and helium into heavier atoms?
My point is: nothing other than hydrogen and a little helium would exist "naturally" if it were not for other "naturally occuring" processes which serve to change one thing into another. No one would argue that a star or a volcano is not "natural"...and most people would not argue that the products of a star or volcano are "not natural" - because they are.
So if you view all the products of nature's processes as natural themselves, why do you view the products of one very specific process (human creativity) to be "un-natural"?
Unless, of course, you view humans themselves as separate from nature...which (quite obviously) I do not
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3009273 - 08/16/04 02:15 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Basically, I completely agree with you that man is a part of nature. However, what distinguishes our species from every other is that we produce things that do not naturally exist. Thus they are certainly not natural.
The psylocybe mushroom (and related species) are able to "create" a group of chemicals - namely psilocin/psilocybin - which do not exist "naturally" (that is, they do not exist without the psylocybe mushroom). Is psilocybin then a "artificial" or "unnatural" creation?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Zoso_UK
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: trendal]
#3009295 - 08/16/04 02:20 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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All of your examples exclude things created by life. That is what I am getting at. Not even just human life. Things created by any life process. Diamonds and oxygen do not fall in to this category and so are irrelevant.
The psilocybe mushroom doesn't create the chemical external to itself. The chemical is produced by its natural design.
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trendal
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3009345 - 08/16/04 02:28 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ahh, ok, so you view "life" as "nature" and "everything else" as "not nature"?
The chemical is produced by its natural design.
What if human creativity and invention are produced by "natural design" (ie: perhaps it is "natural" for humans to create new things - it is part of our fundamental design and the way we function)?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Zoso_UK
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: trendal]
#3009396 - 08/16/04 02:37 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Lol! Life is clearly a very distinct part of Nature from the inanimate parts of nature like rocks and wind. To group living nature with non-living nature is a gross oversimplification of nature.
As for whether human inventions are part of their natural design. Perhaps, if it were we would feel content as a species to follow our design. Humanity as a species is, however, anything but content and very few people have a feeling of definite purpose in their lives. The feeling that comes with following one's natural design whatever that may be. I'm certainly not suggesting that human creativity and invention aren't a part of our design. On the contrary it seems that they are since all human cultures worldwide use tools. However, this doesn't mean that everything we create or invent is part of our natural design. We can produce things that help neither ourselves nor the environment and it wouldn't make sense to say that these things are part of our natural design.
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trendal
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3009596 - 08/16/04 03:15 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well then, it looks like we have a fundamental difference in opinions/viewpoints here! We will have to agree to disagree on this one
I view "nature" as all that exists - the star is no less "natural" in it's existence and functioning than a sea turtle or dog - and thus all nature can be separated into ever more well-defined subgroups. The sun is not part of the subgroup we can define as "Life"....but Life is a subgroup of the physical existence that stars belong to. Humans, then, are a subgroup of Life. We are not separate, in any way, from the rest of nature (again: all that exists).
From the most all-encompasing level everything is "natural" because everything is part of the group defined as "nature". Physical processes combine, increasing complexity by several orders of magnitude, and we have Life (an extremely complex system of electro-chemical processes). Life is in the business of creation - creating things that would not exist without life. This does not make anything "unnatural" because it all is the natural progression of the universe. These things, chemicals and whatnot, that are created are natural products of the functioning of the universe.
It doesn't take too much imagination to extend this framework one step further: human consciousness, along with the creativity and forward-looking insight that come along with it, is a natural product of the functioning of the universe. One step further: the creations of humans are a natural product of human consciousness, and are thus a natural product of the functioning of nature.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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deff
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: trendal]
#3009878 - 08/16/04 04:32 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yup, my views exactly on nature. Although this poses the question then, if everything is natural, what is the importance of having such a word. This is why I think while everything fits into the term 'natural' as you've clearly shown, the true meaning of nature would have to be that which exists without our conscious construction. In this case, natural is a very subjective word just to try and label the external world from that of humans. Objective nature however, would be as you said, everything.
Basically, dumb word founded on the view that we are seperate from the world.
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Zoso_UK
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: deff]
#3010280 - 08/16/04 06:52 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Although I can see the logic in your thinking, you are right in that we will have to agree to differ. I see the universe as being divided in to two categories - life and non-life. Living things in the universe are quintessentially different from non-living things for many reasons - the will to survive, the ordered positioning of chemicals creating purpose... these are but two of them. I also believe that living entities can function according to their design (in tune with nature) or against their design (unnaturally). With simple creatures, their design is obvious (for instance, an ameoba exists to reproduce and survive and nothing else) but as the complexity of creatures increases so does their design brief. As far what our design in nature is, I don't know. However, I don't believe this earth would create life in order to destroy the earth which is what mankind at large is doing so I would deem man's current path unnatural or out of tune with nature.
I see that the foundation of our beliefs is fundamentally different and I don't know which is correct but thanks for the debate
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kaiowas
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3010292 - 08/16/04 06:56 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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to trendal Cjay, and Zoso_UK
great thread this has turned into.
I have thought aboiut this for a little bit, and for the most part I'm going to have to go with what man creates is natural. that doens't mean though, that what man creates, flows with nature.
we could do a whole hell of a lot better job flowing with nature. it seems that more technology we make, the war like games with play with each other leads to more destruction. we've always had these war like tnedencies as humans, but with the increase in technology, we have to really look at ourselves and the power we can create.
what man does a lot is it tries to duplicate what nature already has provided, and most of the time, it's subpar to nature itself.
does that mean we go back...no...but I think we should up our standards as a species, becase in my view our actions as a race on a whole doesn't flow with nature very well.
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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bandaid
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3010304 - 08/16/04 06:59 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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You guys rule, I dont know if I could learn what I do here so easily and so in-sync in the order the questions and answers arise
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Shroomism
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: bandaid]
#3010549 - 08/16/04 07:48 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bandaid said:
Quote:
Shroomism said:
What do you mean poisoning, suffocation, bone crushing, etc etc.. that sounds more like cruel things humans do to each other than something nature does.
Its interesting you put it that way because these are regular things animals do to other animals every day. Its as if your trying to seperate the bad in nature as if it wasnt there and not accepting it, Im not saying your doing that but it sounds like it.
There is a difference, I think.. in animals killing other animals for survival, and human killing other animals or humans for war or "sport", or the variety of other reasons that don't have to do with survival.
I'm not separating the "bad" in nature, I see bad as completely subjective. When the fox eats the rabbit, it is 'bad' for the rabbit, but "good" for the fox. The tidal wave may be "bad" for the community that gets wiped out from it, but perhaps it is "good" for the Earth or nearby ocean and forests that were suffering from that community's destructive actions. There is the yin to the yang. However, I fail to see nuclear weapons, or pollution, as good for anyone, and that is the difference of which I speak. Animals live in harmony with nature in that they do not usually take more than they need for survival, and they do not "battle" against nature.
I'm not separating the bad, I am saying the bad exists as a part of the whole and is completely subjective.
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2Experimental
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Shroomism]
#3010689 - 08/16/04 08:17 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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ya well, if only nature would send a massive title wave to wipe out the entire US.. too bad earth doesen't have a consciousness...I think what some of those guys were arguing is how nature not only meaning animals killing each other for survival but the entire nature of the planet, the bone crushing as the avalacnhe kills the baby seals... I mean, what is a seal in the big picture of it all? but what is a human in the big picture, the power to create and change, humans are against nature
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Shroomism
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: 2Experimental]
#3010715 - 08/16/04 08:24 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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the avalanche kills the baby seals, so we compete by clubbing them to death
Earth doesn't have a consciousness? Is that the latest proven scientific fact?
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2Experimental
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Shroomism]
#3010754 - 08/16/04 08:34 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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yes we club them, but that just shows we mimic nature right? does that mean because we use sticks and nature uses ice it is justifiable, I would hope not... and I don't think the earth has a consciousness like we would talk about human concsciousness... what were you refering to
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Shroomism
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: 2Experimental]
#3010760 - 08/16/04 08:36 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I wouldn't say the Earth has a consciousness like humans, but I definitely think the Earth is aware of itself and its existence.
It is a sentient entity, and we depend on it for our existence.
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deff
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Shroomism]
#3010857 - 08/16/04 09:07 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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More like we are it
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curious4
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: bandaid]
#3010891 - 08/16/04 09:18 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Nature is beautiful..even when one one animal kills another. There is a brief period of brutallity and pain but in the end one animal is eating a fine meal while the spirit of the other melts with all others that came before it. Death is just as beautiful as life if you ask me. Now as for the cruelity that man inflicts, it seems very out of place. Almost alien to how the rest of nature works.
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bandaid
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: curious4]
#3010967 - 08/16/04 09:35 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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If nature never did those things we wouldnt have ever gotten the idea to do malice in the first place right 
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Zoso_UK
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: bandaid]
#3012072 - 08/17/04 03:16 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thats a really good point. I wonder jst how much human nature is environmentally-influenced and how much inherent in our species regardless of other factors. If we were to send a few babies to a planet where everything is love and peace and there are no natural disasters...would those babies still show the same human failings that we all do?
I think man does mimic nature to a large extent but our sheer power means that we are rapidly destroying nature at the same time.
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CJay
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 Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas; s [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3012388 - 08/17/04 07:30 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Nice one dude
I think you are right about the wholesale war bit - changing this is the paradigm shift that will be necessary in order to stop humanity backfiring. This is the tricky part!
It seems to me that power itself forms a strong addictive pathway and usually produces obsessive and pathological behaviour amongst humans. That is one reason we need to link back to the vegetable mind matrix, in order to quell this personality trait and break conditioning.
When you look at any group of predatory mammals, if their group grows too large for the territory they exist in they will try to enlarge that territory. If they meet another group of the same species in the process of that expansion then battles, and even a kind of war errupts. A war over territory and resources.
This seems to be a habitual process in the minds of mammals (and other animal types). Nature seems to be a series of evolving habits and forms. We as humans possess the ability to transcend this habit, due to the concievable consciousness we have access to, however we as a group do not seem to have done so yet.
Instead the power addicts ensure the status quo, and that the rut of this habit is persued. It serves their purpose of self-elevation within their groups to keep any divisions prominent. This is a major source of inertia to the development of our species.
It could well even wipe us out, and most of the planet's life too, if things don't change fast. Even if this does happen, it by no means means the end of Mother Earth.
There does remain the distinct possibility of trancendance and a full recoupling with the vegetable mind matrix. In fact the escalated growth of psychedellic use worldwide, coupled with increasing awareness of our predicament and the failure of war in the minds of the masses, is a strong candidate for the catalyst that can change our species-wide habitual pattern. People are losing faith in their governments, in the leadership of the powerful, and in these warring ways.
Like you say - 'don't hold your breath' - and don't worry I am not. I'm breathing hard and running hard through the jungle to make the deadline - I'm doing all I can to bring this process to it's possible fruition. Many people might not be able to see that, but many do not understand my ways.
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CJay
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Shroomism]
#3012410 - 08/17/04 07:44 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
There is a difference, I think.. in animals killing other animals for survival, and human killing other animals or humans for war or "sport", or the variety of other reasons that don't have to do with survival.
Is the reason we as a species persue such 'sports' because we are locked in habitual patterns learnt from millenia of hunting for survival? It seems it to me.
The greatest step forward will be to overcome these habitual behaviours which no longer serve their once important purpose. Many however cling to what they know, and what their recent genetic memory reminds them is the 'natural' course of things, despite its present inadequacy. That is how species fail, because they fail to evolve into the mould neccesitated by new survival perameters. We as humans possess the ability to evolve mentally/spiritually, and this is what can carry us forward and beyond the old patterns that no longer fit.
ps - big up to everyone on this forum, a fine debate with fine people
Edited by CJay (08/17/04 07:57 AM)
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repemon
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Shroomism]
#3012501 - 08/17/04 08:25 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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About pain:
Also mental pain should be taken as "now there is something wrong going on". But, the hard part to learn is that it is one's own fault pretty much if others can hurt one mentally (not in every case though, like if your father says to you that actually I never loved you sonofabitch, of course then you have to think if there was a reason in you that made your father say it
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Lazerouth
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: Shroomism]
#3014370 - 08/17/04 03:30 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomism said:
are atomic bombs natural?
is making a plant illegal natural?
Yes and yes.
Is an ape using a twig to fish out termites unatural?
Is an eagle dropping turtles onto rocks unatural?
As creations of nature everything we do is natural by default.
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vampirism
Stranger
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: Lazerouth]
#3014381 - 08/17/04 03:32 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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the logic in your metaphors is nonsensical for his two questions.
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Zoso_UK
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: vampirism]
#3014598 - 08/17/04 04:15 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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According to this reasoning, no man is accountable for his actions since he lacks free will; his actions being controlled by nature. I refuse to accept this. Two humans can live lives diametrically opposed - say Hitler compared with Mother Theresa (obvious choices i know). One lifestyle must be unnatural, or both, but they cannot both be natural since that would break the law of non-contradiction. Two opposites cannot both be correct.
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trendal
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: vampirism]
#3014610 - 08/17/04 04:18 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Not at all! What he's saying (I think) is that as we are creations of nature, anything we create is also a part of nature.
Why view humans separately from nature? I don't think it makes sense. We are a (small) part of nature, not external to it. The things we create are distinctly human in nature, yet they are still creations of nature (through us).
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Zoso_UK
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: trendal]
#3014631 - 08/17/04 04:21 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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So Trendal, do you refuse to believe that it is within human capability to defy nature?
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vampirism
Stranger
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: trendal]
#3014661 - 08/17/04 04:27 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well yes, but his metaphors are simply not suited for that, IMO. Ill take it very generally, as you are suggesting then.
I agree that we are a part of nature, but what definition of nature is to be settled on? The physical world ? I don't know about you, but I certainly don't spend all of my consciousness in reality.. Our bodies may be entirely part of nature, but I am hesistant to say so about our minds. That would suggest that we only experience our surroundings and use them to imitate or create.
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Zoso_UK
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: vampirism]
#3014685 - 08/17/04 04:33 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm inclined to agree with you Morrowind. And since the mind and body both influence eachother to varying degrees, this would mean that human actions are a mixture of nature-programmed and innovative factors that are not controlled by nature. Thus the existence of humanity on this planet shows signs of being both in harmony with nature in some aspects, and out of touch in other areas. This I would suggest is the reason so many people feel lost and lonely in this world.
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Lazerouth
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: vampirism]
#3014731 - 08/17/04 04:46 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Trendall is spot on. I'm sorry that I didn't word it better.
In all creation myths the gods and heavens are created with the earth. Does that mean that the spiritual world was born via a natural process hence making it natural as well?
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deff
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: Lazerouth]
#3014776 - 08/17/04 04:56 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Natural is a human symbol. It is not some objective state of being, and for that reason, it varies in meaning from person to person. You people are only debating the meaning of 'nature', when it can mean whatever you want.
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vampirism
Stranger
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Re: & Re: timetraveller &amp [Re: Lazerouth]
#3014782 - 08/17/04 04:58 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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sadly, creation myths have little influence on our current times, and are primarily expressive of the physical world.
Perhaps there is something beyond the spiritual and physical which can not be experienced, but which still influences us - kind of like gravity, but experienced through a bacterium. Just conjecture, naturally.
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trendal
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3014834 - 08/17/04 05:14 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zoso_UK said:
So Trendal, do you refuse to believe that it is within human capability to defy nature?
"Defy nature" implies that there is some sort of command or rule coming from nature, or at the very least some sort of plan. It sounds like you are refering to "nature" as some sort of entity on it's own, separate from "us", which again is not something I think is true.
You'll have to clarify your question a bit for me, but if I'm picking up your idea correctly then the answer is No, I do not think it possible to "defy" nature.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Zoso_UK
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: trendal]
#3014965 - 08/17/04 06:11 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ok, I agree I phrased that badly. So, just so I can be clear on your position, you believe all of mankind to be in harmony with nature in the same way every other animal is?
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Lazerouth
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: deff]
#3015263 - 08/17/04 07:22 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said:
Natural is a human symbol. It is not some objective state of being, and for that reason, it varies in meaning from person to person. You people are only debating the meaning of 'nature', when it can mean whatever you want.
I was trying to get to that but I wanted them to admit it themselves so it would be much more damning. 
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trendal
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3015323 - 08/17/04 07:31 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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So, just so I can be clear on your position, you believe all of mankind to be in harmony with nature in the same way every other animal is?
Oh no, certainly not. I take "harmony" here to mean something the same as balance...we are most certainly not in balance with our environment.
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Fliquid
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 Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: bandaid]
#3016645 - 08/18/04 01:04 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bandaid said:
This is an age old question but I havent seen it posted on the shroomery so heres my bit.
Im not trying to suck the life out of ppls sense of nature, but I always found it sort of ironic when ppl say they try and find peace in nature when nature is by nature extremely cruel. You can view it as chaotic or not, and any of those views doesnt necessarily have to be bad, but with all the obvious agony that goes on, on a normal basis, such as poisoning, suffocation, bone crushing ect ect, how do you find yourself at "peace" with it?. Its all devised in nature, such a painfull form of existance, obviously the only one we're aware of but still, makes you think of what could be or could have been, and maybe even will be. As I see humans the only ones correcting all of this chaos, maybe not in the present but give it 1000yrs . Maybe we where put here to make things well given enough time, or maybe not.
So.. how do you find yourself at "peace" with nature?, as I cant seem to grasp that concept very well at the moment.
The first thing that came up in my mind was "and they say t.v. is violent".
I guess we look at the beauty, and not the actual activities.
It's a good way of viewing.
--------------------
 My latest music! 
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Zoso_UK
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Fliquid]
#3016951 - 08/18/04 02:59 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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So if we are definitely not in balance with nature, why then do you find it inconceivable to think that we could invent something unnatural (out of balance with nature)?
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CJay
Dark Stranger
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Posts: 931
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3017148 - 08/18/04 05:28 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Two humans can live lives diametrically opposed - say Hitler compared with Mother Theresa (obvious choices i know). One lifestyle must be unnatural, or both, but they cannot both be natural since that would break the law of non-contradiction. Two opposites cannot both be correct.
This is where I disagree with you. I personally feel that the contradiction we usually see is due to the level at which our verbal language currently exisists. Our human verbal language divides things into opposites, but I feel that is in effect a kind of species wide shortsighted view.
Our words are inherrently not the things they represent, they are signifiers. That's why I esentially agree with Deff on the issue of using the word natural. The nature (he heh) of our language means that to have 'natural' automatically, there must be 'unnatural'. I personally feel though that in life while things may not be black, doesn't mean they have to be white.
And in fact, much like the yin-yang, all things contain their opposite.
I'm sure we all use the metaphor 'unnatural' at times to describe things which are perfectly 'natural'. And for the purpose of describing a situation this may be a useful release for our emotions.
This is our language, not the thing our language points to.
Sure we may as individuals find much behaviour detestable, but it is a part of the learning experience of our species. Opposites are necessary to make the whole. What is a star without a blackhole? What is life without death? Where is the balance? What is the meaning? The universe would simply not be, the energy flow that it is could not be. Without passing through the dark spaces of consciousness, how would we ever know the light? How would we ever figure out where we are going and what we aspire to?
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Zoso_UK
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: CJay]
#3017185 - 08/18/04 06:09 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Interesting post. But perhaps human language does actually point to a fundamental truth that opposites do exist? It is our attempt to make sense of the world but that doesn't mean it is an erroneous one. I'm personally undecided on this because I haven't given it enough thought.
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trendal
J♠
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Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3017235 - 08/18/04 07:14 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zoso_UK said:
So if we are definitely not in balance with nature, why then do you find it inconceivable to think that we could invent something unnatural (out of balance with nature)?
Well I wouldn't say we are "out of balance with nature"...we are out of balance with other parts of nature. We are still a part of nature, and something which harms the environment here on Earth is no less a part of nature: it is simply out of balance with some other parts of nature.
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Zoso_UK
Zepoholic
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: trendal]
#3017302 - 08/18/04 08:07 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Good point :P
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CJay
Dark Stranger
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: Zoso_UK]
#3022285 - 08/19/04 06:10 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes I do agree that opposites do exist for sure; but I think they are necessary parts of the whole rather than aberations of each other. ie: within nature and within humanity (as a part of nature) opposites are, by the necessity of existence, entertwined to form the whole.
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Zoso_UK
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Re: & Re: timetraveller & kaiowas [Re: CJay]
#3022307 - 08/19/04 06:22 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ok, my bad. I misunderstood your post :P
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