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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #6271863 -

Was it genes that caused homo habilus to make tools?

I'd say that behavior developed because of the interaction between genes and the environment. Genes don't "cause" a behavior, but I guess you could say they lay the groundwork for them.

What I'm saying is that an organism can make decisions which will affect their evolutionary course.

:yesnod:

Sometimes a behavioral change precedes a genetic change.

If by this you mean behaviors can determine whether a gene gets passed on, then I agree. If you mean a behavior can change a gene, then I'd have to accuse you of Lamarckism (and spit at you and do all sorts of other nasty things.  :crazy2:)

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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6271872 -

Quote:
If you mean a behavior can change a gene, then I'd have to accuse you of Lamarckism (and spit at you and do all sorts of other nasty things. :crazy2:


:lol:

Technically speaking though, behavior can change a gene. Say, if you decide to ingest some mutagenic substance.


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: dblaney]
    #6271878 -

Well shit... I guess ya got me there.  :doh:

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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6271880 -

I guess my main beef is what I see as a trend towards genetic determinism. What I was trying to point out with the homo habilus example is that free will can play a role in evolution. I don't think that genes can decide to make tools. They can only provide the brain which has the potential to be used that way(but is by no means destined to do so).


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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #6271899 -

Silversoul said:
Was it genes that caused homo habilus to make tools? What I'm saying is that an organism can make decisions which will affect their evolutionary course. Sometimes a behavioral change precedes a genetic change.


Impossible. The genetic change must precede the behavioral change, otherwise the organism has no potential for behavioral change. The behavior can then be passed down socially (and another factor comes into play: social Darwinism) but the genetic changes must occur first.

After all the prerequisite genetic changes allowing a behavioral change have evolved, then this may affect which organisms survive in the environment as opposed to before the behavioral change, but it is still entirely the genes that are undergoing natural selection. Dawkins has not been logically contradicted by any proof yet to my knowledge, and it's unlikely that the gene-centered view of evolution is going to be refuted. It may be elaborated, just as the gene-centered view of evolution was an elaboration on Darwinistic evolution, but there are no logical inconsistencies or evidence that would seem to contradict it.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: dblaney]
    #6271914 -

dblaney said:
Quote:
If you mean a behavior can change a gene, then I'd have to accuse you of Lamarckism (and spit at you and do all sorts of other nasty things. :crazy2:


:lol:

Technically speaking though, behavior can change a gene. Say, if you decide to ingest some mutagenic substance.


Yet that behavior has resulted as a potential given to the organism by its genetics and the environment that acts upon the genetics. If the DNA is changed by mutagenic substances, exposure to radiation, etc. then the new genes will be subjected to the process of natural selection, just like it would have occurred otherwise except at a slower rate without these catalysts.

No one's disputing there's a relationship between behavior and genetics, or that behavior given to the organism by its genetics therefore affects the future natural selection processes upon that species. But it all begins and ends with the genetics- the organism itself, its habitats, its social structure and its behavior are all a bridge for the evolution of the genes.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: MycoCat]
    #6274195 -

yeah, the genes evolved so much and far, that it is possible for our organisms to reach the spiritual plane, the plane of choice and more.
At this moment, some other, reflective factors come into play to influence evolution. Like our free will.
Now the question is, did the genes purposefully evolve into that direction ?
Imho, that is so for a big sure. Building more complexity, fiddling the rules out of this by reduction to stabilize, then building more complexity and then reduce again, again and again.
With humans, these factors, called memes these days have gotten ahead of plain genetic evolution, but on base level these genes are of course mainly that what supports and sustains our existence and in the long run those genes can be demolished by the back reflection of the memes (like destroying the biosphere by destroying natural life support).


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #6275060 -

BlueCoyote said:
Now the question is, did the genes purposefully evolve into that direction ?


This brings up another issue I have with evolution as it's taught today. In science textbooks, it's common to describe evolution as "purposeless," which seems highly speculative to me. Such a claim is not falsifiable, and therefore not scientific.


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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #6275096 -

Such a claim is not falsifiable

Of course it's falsifiable. All you have to do to falsify it is find evidence of the designer. :shrug:

Stating that evolution proceeds along a design is what's not falsifiable and therefore not science.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Diploid]
    #6275100 -

Neither claim is backed by scientific evidence, and therefore it is not proper science to make a claim either way.


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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #6275111 -

But the claim that evolution is designerless is part of the theory. It's subject to falsification by the finding of evidence of evolution's design, and so it is fair game.

Not so for ID.

Edit: I think it would be fair to say, though, that the designerless claim is more conjecture than theory but it's arrived at by a careful analysis of the available evidence and the intuition of those whose life work is the study of this evidence. Because of this, it's fair to lend it more weight than mere conjecture.

In areas of study where I'm not an expert and not certain about an issue, I defer to experts, especially when it is the case that those experts are in almost-unanimous agreement.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Diploid]
    #6275133 -

Just to clarify, my complaint was not that evolution was claimed to be "designerless," but rather the claim that it was "purposeless."


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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #6275151 -

Aren't the two synonymous? How can you have a design without a purpose?

I suppose you can have a purpose without a design, but that's anthropomorphizing evolution. You could say that a hammer's purpose, once dropped, is to fall, but that's anthropomorphic. Hammers just fall when dropped, nothing more.

Evolution just happens when 100 or so elements exist in the presence of a couple dozen universal constants. No design, no purpose.

Now, if you want to argue that the 100 elements and the finely tuned constants are designed, well, that's another thread and WAY more all-encompassing than just the tiny phenomenon of evolution in the grand scheme of things.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #6275157 -

purpose- The object toward which one strives or for which something exists; an aim or a goal.

Evolution is purposeless, because natural selection acts only random mutations. To say evolution has purpose would mean life would need to evolve towards a certain direction with foresight of the future, and this is obviously impossible. The mechanisms of evolution exist only in the present environment, and life itself follows only the motif of "Survival of the fittest"- meaning that evolution cannot act towards anything in the future, but exist only in the present environment of the organisms.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Ravus]
    #6275163 -

Praise for your excellent post. :wink:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Icelander]
    #6275176 -

The Zen Buddhists and Taoists seem to only emulate evolution, don't they? That must be where the human presentist mindset comes from.

I see you like to mock the quotes in my signature, eh?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Ravus]
    #6275191 -

Ravus said:
The Zen Buddhists and Taoists seem to only emulate evolution, don't they? That must be where the human presentist mindset comes from.


I'm curious about this statement, could you elaborate on what you mean?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: dblaney]
    #6275210 -

I mean that, just as natural selection acts only in the present environment as it cannot hold regard for the future, so too do Taoists and Zen Buddhists realize that they must focus their mind entirely on the present in meditation. It is the same present affecting both, and neither can truly look ahead to the future, because purposes are, after all, abstract and impossible to know. Why they cannot/ decide not to look ahead to the future are, however, different, because natural selection is a process, not a consious entity. That is why I said they emulate evolution, because you can only emulate the process of existing and changing in the present without the possibility of knowing the future, yet the consciousness of human beings mindfully in the present distinguishes them.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Ravus]
    #6275360 -

Ah okay then, well said.

:smile:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Ravus]
    #6275672 -

no purpose in nature an life ?
:what:
Maybe I am living on another planet, but to bring aware consciousness into living organisms seems quite the strongest purpose of evolution of life ever seen.
All around I look and see purpose, represented by cause and effect, and even meaning, represented by cause.
If one lets evolution play for some hundred thousand or million years on any organism in a most complex environment, I am sure it evolves aware consciousness.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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