Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 |  [ show all ]
God and Science/Republicans and Bush
    #6269881 -

I happened to make this comparison after watching Rush Limbaugh admit, for the past six years, he's been lying about supporting Bush because "the stakes were so high"; but now he doesn't have to lie anymore because of the Democratic majority. Now, despite whether or not that makes sense, (I don't think it really does), I thought this was very similar to support of religious people to obviously ridiculous concepts like Intelligent Design (mostly the belief that the earth is 6,000 years old part).

It just made me wonder if, while saying these logically defiant statements, religious people are akin to the Republicans over the past few years (secretly cursing the fact they have to support such a silly position).

I'm not sure, but the two seem to have a lot in common. The amount of self deception in our society today just troubles me...


--------------------
No question is so difficult to answer as that to which the answer is obvious.

Meow.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: MycoCat]
    #6269901 -

And if anyone is religious (not spiritual) and doesn't think they practice self deception every day...you're wrong.


--------------------
No question is so difficult to answer as that to which the answer is obvious.

Meow.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: MycoCat]
    #6269919 -

Haha yeah, intelligent design is kinda rediculous


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: MycoCat]
    #6269948 -

MycoCat said:
And if anyone is religious (not spiritual) and doesn't think they practice self deception every day...you're wrong.


We all practice self deception at times but your point is valid.

Did Rush actually say that? What a dildo! :rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: dblaney]
    #6269950 -

Given all the things that can go wrong with the human body, I call it Stoopid Design.  :tongue:

:dunce:
:braindamage:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Diploid]
    #6270116 -

:lol: :thumbup:



--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: MycoCat]
    #6270553 -

Quote:
Intelligent Design (mostly the belief that the earth is 6,000 years old part)


I suggest reading up on intelligent design before making such ridiculous claims. Intelligent Design != Young Earth Creationism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #6270668 -

Are you advocating intelligent design or just suggesting that the poster better inform himself?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: dblaney]
    #6271041 -

dblaney said:
Are you advocating intelligent design or just suggesting that the poster better inform himself?


I mean exactly what I said. Nothing more.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #6271451 -

That's fine, but I didn't really understand what you meant, which is why I asked for clarification.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: dblaney]
    #6271541 -

I was simply trying to clear up a common misconception about intelligent design. Many people on both the evolution and creation side have the misconception that it is basically the same thing as creationism, which is not true. Intelligent design is a model of evolution which says that certain features of biology cannot be explained by natural selection, and are best explained by an intelligent cause. It doesn't deny evolution. It merely complements it.

As for my personal feelings on intelligent design, they are mixed. I think it gets a bad rap because of its association with the religious right, and I don't think it's as ridiculous as people make it out to be. However, I also don't think it's truly scientific, as it's not falsifiable. Even so, I think that many researchers in the ID crowd have done a thorough job at finding problems with the current evolutionary model, and even if their alternative is not taken seriously, I think that the objections they raised should be considered and addressed by the scientific community.

I'm not a fan of the current "Selfish Gene" model of evolution, either. I think it's a very narrow-minded way of looking at evolution, being overly reductionist and deterministic. It basically says that we are our genes, and that it is the universal unit of selection. I think there is plenty of reason to believe that selection also occurs at the cellular, individual, and group level, and even higher taxonomic levels. I also think that Lynn Margulis' work on symbiogenesis has shown that evolution is as much about cooperation as it is about competition.

On the subject of intelligent design, my main objection to it is theological, not scientific. I just don't think that's how God works. I don't believe in a "God of the gaps." I think that God is the Ground of Being, from which everything springs. God is not some mechanic who tinkers with his creation every once in a while. God is always present and active in every moment.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #6271729 -

It doesn't deny evolution. It merely complements it.

Intellegent design proposes that organisms are too complex to have been created by natural causes. This seems to contradict the very premise of biological evolution (The premise being: Organisms evolved due to natural causes.)

I'm not a fan of the current "Selfish Gene" model of evolution, either. I think it's a very narrow-minded way of looking at evolution, being overly reductionist and deterministic.

Evolutionary theory has been reductionistic and deterministic since Lamarck. The gene-centered paradigm of biological evolution didn't cause this. Plus, it seems a hellova lot less "narrow minded" than the organism-centered paradigm. Most evolutionary theorists since Darwin had a gene-centered view of evolution (Mendel, Hunt, etc), but nobody articulated this until Richard Dawkins. Things such as Genetic drift, mutations, altruism, empathy, recombination, etc are all much easier to discuss using the gene-centered model. The only reason the organism-centered paridigm existed is because for a long time genes were nothing but theoretical entities.

I think there is plenty of reason to believe that selection also occurs at the cellular, individual, and group level, and even higher taxonomic levels.

Huh? Those are all phenotypes.

Edited by MushmanTheManic (11/11/06 11:39 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: MycoCat]
    #6271743 -

The amount of self deception in our society today just troubles me...

I think most of the people expressing irrational religious beliefs really do believe them and are unable or unwilling to understand anything else... whichs seems even more troubling.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6271772 -

Quote:
Huh? Those are all phenotypes.


Selection acts on phenotypes...

I agree with everything else you say though.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6271777 -

MushmanTheManic said:
Intellegent design proposes that organisms are too complex to have been created by natural causes.


No, it says that certain features of organisms are too complex to be explained by natural selection alone.

Quote:
I'm not a fan of the current "Selfish Gene" model of evolution, either. I think it's a very narrow-minded way of looking at evolution, being overly reductionist and deterministic.

Evolutionary theory has been reductionistic and deterministic since Lamarck. The gene-centered paradigm of biological evolution didn't cause this. Plus, it seems a hellova lot less "narrow minded" than the organism-centered paradigm. Most evolutionary theorists since Darwin had a gene-centered view of evolution (Mendel, Hunt, etc), but nobody articulated this until Richard Dawkins. Things such as Genetic drift, mutations, altruism, empathy, recombination, etc are all much easier to discuss using the gene-centered model. The only reason the organism-centered paridigm existed is because for a long time genes were nothing but theoretical entities.


Certainly genes are important to evolution. I'm not denying that. It's the premise that natural selectiong can all be reduced to genetics that I object to. Look at the red-footed booby and the blue-footed booby. The different colors of their feet have nothing to do with their genes reacting to the environment. Some boobys preferred mates with red feet while others prefered mates with blue feet, so they evolved into different species due the preferences of the individuals. In this case, the unit of selection was the individual organism, not the genes.

Quote:
I think there is plenty of reason to believe that selection also occurs at the cellular, individual, and group level, and even higher taxonomic levels.

Huh? Those are all phenotypes.


So?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: dblaney]
    #6271791 -

Selection acts on phenotypes...

Phenotypes cannot be inherited.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #6271802 -

The different colors of their feet have nothing to do with their genes reacting to the environment. Some boobys preferred mates with red feet while others prefered mates with blue feet, so they evolved into different species due the preferences of the individuals. In this case, the unit of selection was the individual organism, not the genes.

The individual organism doesn't get passed on to future generations though, the genes for red or blue feet do.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6271805 -

Was it genes that caused homo habilus to make tools? What I'm saying is that an organism can make decisions which will affect their evolutionary course. Sometimes a behavioral change precedes a genetic change.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #6271846 -

Quote:
Was it genes that caused homo habilus to make tools?


Early man's genes allowed him to have a brain capable of intelligence complex enough to make and use tools.

Quote:
What I'm saying is that an organism can make decisions which will affect their evolutionary course.


Evolution deals with changes in the genetic structure of a population, not an individual organism.

Quote:
Sometimes a behavioral change precedes a genetic change.


This is sometimes true, but I don't see where you're going with this.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: God and Science/Republicans and Bush [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6271852 -

MushmanTheManic said:
Selection acts on phenotypes...

Phenotypes cannot be inherited.


Sure they can. Say two individuals homozygous for blue eyes mate. Notwithstanding a mutation, their offspring will have blue eyes, which is a phenotype, and which was inherited.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 |  [ show all ]

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Niestche, Bush, and Christianity. nugsarenice 1,080 11 08/29/02 04:17 PM
by Anonymous
* Thou shalt have no other gods before Me
( 1 2 3 all )		 falcon 3,893 41 09/16/03 01:17 PM
by gnrm23
* Do You Believe In God?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )		 EffedS 7,047 92 09/08/03 09:58 AM
by Clover
* Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ?
( 1 2 3 4 all )		 lucid 11,266 74 09/25/03 05:08 PM
by ska8ball
* Religion and God
( 1 2 3 all )		 RandalFlagg 4,311 40 09/19/03 01:49 PM
by Clover
* why you should believe in god
( 1 2 3 all )		 2Experimental 3,423 47 09/21/03 02:00 PM
by fireworks_god
* If God really wants us to believe in him...
( 1 2 3 4 all )		 Baby_Hitler 5,192 74 05/06/03 12:35 AM
by Deiymiyan
* The Absurdity of God
( 1 2 3 all )		 silversoul7 3,938 40 12/11/03 08:20 PM
by bumski

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
3,707 topic views. 1 members, 358 guests and 22 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.027 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 16 queries.