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Offlineferago2
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Original Sin
    #2946594 - 07/30/04 11:55 PM (13 years, 25 days ago)

I was thinking last night that the first reaction of Adam and Eve upon receiving the knowledge of good and evil is to become ashamed of their nakedness, at least according to the Judeo-Christian tradition. Infants, children, and certain cultures of course have no qualms or shame with nudity. Does this mean that as a child grows up, society forces original sin and its consequences on him? Is original sin something not born into, but learned?

I don't really mean original sin in a religious sense, but rather the sociopsychological meaning of such a central myth to certain cultures. What does it say if the consquences of the original sin against God is now something taught, unnatural to the children?

Thoughts?


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Original Sin [Re: ferago2]
    #2946602 - 07/30/04 11:59 PM (13 years, 25 days ago)

... humans are supposed to be naked... I think Abercrombie payed god to add that little bit


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Original Sin [Re: ferago2]
    #2946616 - 07/31/04 12:03 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

I think it is interesting that the moment when the original sin is incurred it is also the moment where we became separate from the animals in that we had self awareness. The original sin is seeing us as separate from nature because of our knowledge. I have pissed off several Christians by putting forth this concept.


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Offlineferago2
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Re: Original Sin [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2946619 - 07/31/04 12:05 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

Oh, I don't believe it. I just think it, combined with those who believe it teach their children and enforce their society, is interesting.

After all, movies around here are considered more inappropriate for children if they show a female nipple than if they show someone machinegunning orphans while yelling "Die you motherfuckers!"

Or, to quote someone else:
If a man touches a woman's breast in a movie, it's an R rating, but if he cuts off a limb with a chainsaw, it's a PG-13.
-Martin Sheifer, quoted in Nadine Strossen's Defending Pornography"


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Original Sin [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2946620 - 07/31/04 12:06 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

dude, humans had self conciousness before they 'ate the fruit' if that shit even happened.


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Re: Original Sin [Re: ferago2]
    #2946621 - 07/31/04 12:07 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

true, society REALLY has a double standard when it comes to sex and violence in the media... seeing janet jacksons nipple make SUCH a big ruckes it made me laugh how stupid everyone is


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Original Sin [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2946628 - 07/31/04 12:11 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

They had no awareness of their nudity...therefore they were not self concious. Concious...yes, but not SELF concious.
"if that shit even happened"
I think it is a myth with a lesson bundled within...not a real event.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Original Sin [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2946634 - 07/31/04 12:16 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

I think they were conscious and self conscious... just maybe not self conscious in the way that would require them to feel ashamed at being naked.there is no sin in nakedness.. I think the whole concept is kinda bad... I wish the bible made the first sin murder, cause then it would actually make some sense


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Original Sin [Re: ferago2]
    #2946641 - 07/31/04 12:19 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

I like that alot, Huehuecoyotl. Our knowledge is truly a part of nature because it exists in nature.

The original sin was our self separation from the animals. When you think about it, our feeling of separation from nature is not very healthy for us or the Earth.

I don't see how it clusterfucks Christian minds though.


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Offlinejono
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Re: Original Sin [Re: ferago2]
    #2946646 - 07/31/04 12:21 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

Ive often wondered about the idea of original sin myself. Ive thought that it might be possible that its infact referring to the idea of 'delusion' in eastern religions, to do with the idea of self / ego / individuality that we take to be 'ourselves'. I see some others in this thread have thought the same!


--------------------
Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Original Sin [Re: MAGnum]
    #2946672 - 07/31/04 12:28 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

"The original sin was our self separation from the animals. When you think about it, our feeling of separation from nature is not very healthy for us or the Earth."

This is the basis for all forms of shamanism...to reconnect us to nature as an animal.


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Original Sin [Re: jono]
    #2946750 - 07/31/04 12:52 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

Please, elaborate, Jono


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OfflinePed
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Re: Original Sin [Re: ferago2]
    #2946791 - 07/31/04 01:15 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

In Buddhism, fear is taken to be the "original sin", though it is not viewed as a crime for which we are being punished. Fear is the necessary result of mistaken awareness. There is the notion that we are "I" and that our "I" is absolutely confined and has impenetrable borders, and then there are a series of assumptions about what that "I" -- which actually does not exist -- actually is.

When living beings believe their imputed identity to be actually existing, there arises the natural instinct to cherish and to protect their sense of "I". It is the idea that "I" inherently exists which is the basis for fear. If we do not have the belief that we are discrete entities, or that our comfort is important, there is no basis for the experience of fear, even to the most subtle degree.

We can see this be looking at our experiences with psychedelics. If we've ever undergone an intense psychedelic experience, we may have noticed that there is a stark terror which often arises immediately prior to ego dissolution. Once the ego is fully dissolved, there is a sense of release into calm luminosity. It is a profound sense of spiritual relaxation. This is because our sense of "I" functions primarily to create in us inner tension. It functions to create the potential for fear in the same way that a large mass creates a proportionate field of gravitational attraction. When the sense of "I" disappears, the fear which surrounds it like an aura evaporates.

It might be helpful to note that since our awareness remains as the ego (or "I") dissolves, the ego cannot be synonymous with ourselves. Logically, it follows that the "I" is something added atop what we actually are. If it is ourself who observes our "self" dissolving, ourself cannot be our "self".

When a human being is born into samsara, he or she immediately begins associating himself with his surroundings. Our parents will typically adore and cherish us, looking at us and telling us how wonderful we are. It is natural that we would eventually believe this to be so. Through observation, we fall into the ignorance believing that we are not others, and that others are not us, that we are indivisible, and that we are of highest importance. These ideas grow into an all-pervasive vine called self-grasping ignorance, and the gap between ourselves and others grows wider and wider. Herein lies the foundation which sustains all the fear we have experienced, are experiencing, and will experience in the future.

Let's look at the reasons people wear clothes. Clothes are worn to keep people warm, to protect the skin from burns and scrapes. They are worn to protect people from the weather. Clothes are worn to maintain a sense of individuality through fashion. They are worn to show allegiance to certain groups, cultures, or subcultures. And, they are worn to sheild one's self from the vulnerability that is nudity.

Sex is an act which makes people vulnerable like no other. For sex to be a safe and healthy act, a deep sense of mutuality is required. In copuluation, the barriers between two individuals are not so well defined, especially when there is a powerful emotional bond involved. Therefore, when a society (such as our own) places a high priority on self-segregation and individuality, the sex organs are seen as a threat to the absolution of one's uniquity, and are associated with vulnerability to pain or rejection. To expose the sex organs is a betrayal to one of the most fundamental social values. When a strong sense of "I" and "not other" is happening in a society which holds these ideas as supreme, there necessarily arises an amount of fear and shame surrounding sex and nudity.

"The extent to which a man sees his culture in his identity is the extent to which his world is a hallucination." -- Alan Watts

"Culture is not your friend." -- Terence McKenna


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OfflineOOISI
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Re: Original Sin [Re: ferago2]
    #2946984 - 07/31/04 02:20 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

clothes are cool, i mean they protect us from weather, well not really but could you imagine it hailing hard and everyones naked? red asses galore!

i think you should be able to choose which one you want, and sexual activity shouldnt be looked down upon, thats just straight up hypocritical


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Offlinecleaner
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Re: Original Sin [Re: Ped]
    #2947692 - 07/31/04 09:58 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
When the sense of "I" disappears, the fear which surrounds it like an aura evaporates.






Ped i could kiss you Your a genius.


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Offlinecleaner
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Re: Original Sin [Re: Ped]
    #2947730 - 07/31/04 10:10 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
If we do not have the belief that we are discrete entities, or that our comfort is important, there is no basis for the experience of fear, even to the most subtle degree.




In that case i have an issue that i want you to help me with.
I know (and i try) to believe in God and Love. But how can one take lightly and calmly whats happening on the planet, how can one not fear of what might happen if people do not wisen up?


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Original Sin [Re: cleaner]
    #2947762 - 07/31/04 10:20 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

i don't know if you just wanted ped to answer this but....


I have fought with this as well, and what I try to do is jsut not feel negative about it.  you can still disagree and not feel negative right??  The whole basis of this is to not force your will upon what happens.  if you try to say, "I want it this way" or "it should go this way"  you'll fiund that you'll be left feeling disappointed, afraid, jealous, resentful, angry, frustrated, etc.  These do nothing bu make yourself feel uncomfortable.  it all stems from your righteous thoughts your ego gives.

you can still think you are right, but I am willing to bet you would be way more effective in making decisions towards fixing the problem if you aren't feeling negative. 

I think it's about acceptence.  :smile:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Original Sin [Re: ferago2]
    #2947766 - 07/31/04 10:22 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

When i was very young i had no shame in running around no clothes on. In fact i did not like them..Now i am 23 years old and i am typing this message fully dressed (dont worry ,you havent got "The naked Poster" case).

To use computer terms i believe that somethings come with our hardware (our BIOS) and some of them are imprented on us ,like OS and various software.

Is "the sin" BIOS or merely a software? I cannot answer that.It would be very interesting though to compare and contrast all world religions so we can come up with a table stating similarities and differences.Maybe in the similarities we can find our BIOS? Maybe the differences are culturally tweakes OS'es and software?

More questions than answers,as usual...


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Original Sin [Re: ferago2]
    #2947775 - 07/31/04 10:25 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

intersting concept right there, especially how TV shows us killing and death all the time, but is limited in showing the human body.

I definately think we put the idea of seperateness into the child. think about it, the child is dressed everyday and everyday it gets used to it. we are taught to hide ourselves through repetition and as a child gets older, it will learn this idea of feeling shame for displaying the body.

I don't think for one secodn that we are inherently born with the idea of original sin. to me it's one of the dumbest most limiting concepts christianity puts forth.

it's like saying "you are bad for being born..." that's fucked up.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Original Sin [Re: kaiowas]
    #2947822 - 07/31/04 10:40 AM (13 years, 25 days ago)

Another view on it would be that humanity has understood that "Life is difficult" ,since we have a physical body and it can suffer.So much suffering sometimes ,we arent sure where we are coming from (prebirth?) and when we are going when we die.Im sure i wouldnt pull that funny face on my avatar or we would have Kaiowas smiling for us if for example we suffered from gangrene or something funky was moving in my bowels....So...Someone might think "what did i do to deserve that"?,"Why dont i live in a Paradise?" By the way the way "paradise" is pictured reminds me very much of nature archetype...Oh ,,yes ,when we used to run wild (prefferably naked) amonst trees,streams,friendly and unfriendly animals,parasites that want to make their way in our guts,but also beautifull unspoiled sunsets,clean fragrand air and no cement around!


I dont think that i am in this planet because of a sin,but i can see why someone might believe it.

My post has a "no offence to anyone" policy,i hope people get that.I have to warn though that my "humour" (at least called like that by some) is a bit....weird ,boarding at the "black humour" category.


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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