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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
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The Origins of the I Ching
    #1443282 - 04/09/03 03:42 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

heyo heyo what's up?

The first dynasty in China, the Shang dynasty, was a dynasty made up of the descendants of Shang. Shang was a manifestation of all good attributes in a leader, and was thought to be one of many ancestors controlling the fate of the Chinese. Without the blood of Shang, an emperor's rule could not be justified. The emperor's court at this time had shamans who would communicate with these ancestral spirits and keep them appeased. In their model, all misfortunes were caused by angry ancestors, and all things fortunate occured by the grace of the almighty ancestors. One technique commonly used to divine and seek guidance from these spirits was reading the cracks in the skull of cattle. The shaman would drill at the bone with a bronze knife until a depression was made and then would heat the knife until it was red-hot and then press it into the bone. The bone would crack, and the shaman would use proto-pictograms to write down the result and decide on the best source of action.

Things were going well for this new empire, but eventually a string of emperors dying consistenly before manhood led to instability in the rule and a war of succession began. The point about the Shang dynasty all being descended from Shang is important, because that is how rule was justified. Without the inherited blood of Shang nobody could justify ruling China, so when the dust from the civil war settled with all the descendants of Shang dead, there was a little confusion over what to do.

The Zhous (or Chous) were a people existing on the sidelines of the empire, but were drawn into the conflict. They were a feudal group, or maybe they were nomadic, or a combination of both, it's hard to say. What we do know is that they were led by a man named Wen, who's title was the duke of Zhou. At the end of the conflict the Zhous were the dominant force in China, and in the best position to once again unify it and rule. But they had to justify their position, and to do so they came up with the concept of the mandate of heaven. According to them, it wasn't Shang who granted the right to rule, but heaven itself. For the length of the Shang dynasty heaven had approved the Shang's to rule, but eventually abandoned them in favour of the Zhous. How else to explain the Zhous' position? So, the duke of Zhou became king Wen, the first leader of the Zhou dynasty.

How the I Ching emerged as 64 changes recorded in a book isn't exactly certain, but it is certainly connected to the shaman's divination techniques. Archeologists from an Ontario university (can't remember which one) took all the cattle skulls which had been used to divine, and ran them through some kind of mathematical machine. What they discovered is .. get ready.. there are eight basic ways a cow skull cracks. These correspond to the original eight triagrams. The triagrams are made of three stacked lines. Each line is either broken or solid, yin, or yang, and there are eight possible combinations.

Another piece of the I Ching puzzle is king Wen's biography. The story of his life was recorded for others to learn from. His victories, defeats, rises, falls, ebbs, and flows were written down as his life was considered to be the epitome of success. Basically, he's the country boy prince who becomes the emperor of the known world. To the people at the time, the I Ching was the biography of king Wen. It details all the fundamental tendencies of change in the universe, and king Wen's life was a perfect microcosm for people to examine the greater patterns of life. That's an interesting way of reading the I Ching, eh, as a biography?

So what happened next? Well, king Wen established an efficient feudalism in China and went down in history as one of the nation's greatest thinkers. Whatever happened for sure, we'll never know, but king Wen is generally accepted as the first to lay down the sequence of the I Ching as a book. He didn't invent it, however, as the examination of the divination bones proves, the I Ching has its roots in the shamanic traditions of ancient China. And what happened to these shamans? Well they eventually left the court to live in the mountains where they became the taoists. Today taoism seems to take a back seat to buddhism and other perhaps more accessible religions and spiritual practices, but to me it's what China, the world's oldest civilization, has contributed to the world. Around 1990, an anthropologist seeking taoist hermits in the wilderness of asia found a Chinese man, who, when asked of his opinion on the communists said "Communists? Who are the communists?" This has some interesting implications. I wonder what these taoist hermits are cooking up, way out there in the mountains.

Some more interesting things: I don't remember his name, maybe some of you might know, but the inventor of binary mathematics was reading the I Ching, and then had a dream that night. The next morning, he invented binary code (10010100101010) which of course, bears an uncanny resemblance to the sequences of broken and unbroken lines of the I Ching. So here we all are, communicating using devices based on taoist philosophy. Overlooked, these taoists, but their contributions to mankind are... almost spooky.

Another interesting thing about China and the mandate of heaven: when you think about it, China still, after all these years, hasn't fundamentally changed their system for selecting leaders. Tieneman square (sp) was very misinterpreted by us westerners. To us it was a protest against communists where the people wanted to usher in a new era of democracy and freedom, but that's not exactly it. It was a protest because a Chinese official didn't recieve a proper funeral. The official (who's name I can't remember) was a kind of people's hero, because he suggested that there was corruption rampant among the leaders of the communist government. Because he was so highly ranked and loved by the people, the government couldn't simply imprison him because it would cause a revolution, so instead the government opted to try and forget about him by putting his body in a hole with a "good riddance". The tienemant square protests occured because the people were suggesting, as their hero had, that the Chinese rulers had lost credibility, or the mandate of heaven, so it was time for them to go. The Chinese government disagreed, however, and so we have a massacre. Did they want democracy? Some maybe, but that's not really the point, simply what we'd like to believe and what makes sense to us. So, China hasn't fundamentally changed. Since ancient times, the mandate of heaven has followed chinese history and has always been there. I wonder if China will ever end?

well, I think that's it. I find it really interesting how everything ties together.. the eight cracks in the skull, the eight triagrams, using the principles of the I Ching to tell you this information.. neat-o. If people want sources and the like, I'll see what I can dig up. I just wrote this as though I was telling it orrally so it's a bit of a word-of-mouth historical thing, but I can back it up if you'd like, and I think I will over the next few days..

Edit: Once again I'll reccomend to you the translation of the I Ching by Alfred Huang The Complete I Ching. It's the best translation (trust me).


Edited by Dogomush (04/09/03 05:52 PM)


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: The Origins of the I Ching [Re: Dogomush]
    #1445231 - 04/10/03 01:37 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

dude this post went off the radar with only 8 views...

bump


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: The Origins of the I Ching [Re: Dogomush]
    #1445259 - 04/10/03 01:44 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

the inventor of binary mathematics was reading the I Ching, and then had a dream that night. The next morning, he invented binary code

fascinating. do you have a source for this?


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OfflineStateInBetween
still wandering
Registered: 04/03/03
Posts: 3
Loc: Fresh in the new world
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
India is Way more cool [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1445534 - 04/10/03 03:23 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Well I think that the I ching is all about how you feel man...it like your bodies interpretation of what the spirit is trying to tell the world. Its like the earth mother is trying to warmly bring us back into the womb, man. There like this total freedom of essence, some great body of beautiful stuff, man, you gotta go there to feel it. MUshrooms are a great way of finding the great mother within and without. Another good way is by travelling. Get away from your crappy culture and go and live a totally new and better one. I lived in india for 3 years and its just so amazing, man, unbelievable. The people are so beautiful and theres this great energy that i felt beating inside my chest, and it beat to the same rhythm of the movement of the beautiful people going about thier rituals. It felt so amazing to have no ties, man, i didnt bring anything but my camera and some black and white film. I took some amazing pictures of some of the indian children that were always swarming me for my money. I ended up giving the camera and the shot film away man, cause i totally realized that its stupid to own anything. I gave away most of my clothes too, then someone stole my ticket to get home and i had to spend two and a half years earning a ticket home by re-soling sandals. But thats what its all about, man, just letting what happens happen. And keeping a totally open, positive mind. Anything else is totally stupid. And you should forget about chinese stuff anyways, cause indian beliefs are way more amazing.

-Dont leave the country until you KNOW you can handle it. Especially india.


--------------------
Sometimes the meaning that youre desperately searching for is that theres no meaning in the first place.


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Offlinecleaner
Stranger

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 508
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: India is Way more cool [Re: StateInBetween]
    #1445731 - 04/10/03 06:22 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Hell i dont know!

Supposedly it says that evil and good, positive and negative, are always equal and/or opposite.

I don't see how one can compare good and evil to be equal.

I theory, good makes 1 out of 0. And evil is to make 0 out of 1.

Creation - destruction.


Damn, those china men they sure know how to screw with your brains


--------------------


Edited by cleaner (04/10/03 06:23 AM)


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OfflineKathaneal
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Registered: 03/13/03
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Re: India is Way more cool [Re: cleaner]
    #1448368 - 04/11/03 12:44 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

[q]Another interesting thing about China and the mandate of heaven: when you think about it, China still, after all these years, hasn't fundamentally changed their system for selecting leaders. Tieneman square (sp) was very misinterpreted by us westerners. To us it was a protest against communists where the people wanted to usher in a new era of democracy and freedom, but that's not exactly it. It was a protest because a Chinese official didn't recieve a proper funeral. The official (who's name I can't remember) was a kind of people's hero, because he suggested that there was corruption rampant among the leaders of the communist government. Because he was so highly ranked and loved by the people, the government couldn't simply imprison him because it would cause a revolution, so instead the government opted to try and forget about him by putting his body in a hole with a "good riddance". The tienemant square protests occured because the people were suggesting, as their hero had, that the Chinese rulers had lost credibility, or the mandate of heaven, so it was time for them to go. The Chinese government disagreed, however, and so we have a massacre. Did they want democracy? Some maybe, but that's not really the point, simply what we'd like to believe and what makes sense to us. So, China hasn't fundamentally changed. Since ancient times, the mandate of heaven has followed chinese history and has always been there. I wonder if China will ever end?[/q]

So we were misled by the media covering it??? That's quite a boob on its part.

The Middle Kingdom by David Wingrove was fascinating. China meaning middle kingdom was the dominating race on earth that ruled like dynasties - each section of the world was led by a Tang (emperor).


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Invisibledjfrog
omgws!!!1!

Registered: 10/23/00
Posts: 3,710
Re: India is Way more cool [Re: Kathaneal]
    #1449471 - 04/11/03 01:22 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I don't advocate any text as the final word on anything, but I imagine the world would be a lot better place if more people read the I Ching.

A good number of countries rose to power with a conquer and destroy mindset. This mindset does lead to growth and prosperity initially, but as the pool of lesser-protected resources is depleted that mindset will lead to more strife than gain.

The I Ching to me represents a cumulation of what is not just great about Taoist thought but also Buddhist thought or what I've come to consider 'eastern thinking'.

I prefer the shorter GNL translation though, I've never gone into any of the booksized ones. I have a bookmark to http://home.san.rr.com/merel/gnl.html#gnl , but if anyone has links for other short prose-form translations that they think are good, hook me up.


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
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Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: India is Way more cool [Re: djfrog]
    #1449955 - 04/11/03 03:50 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

errr that's not the I Ching you linked to. That's the Tao Te Ching.

The Tao Te Ching was written by this guy who was riding out of China west on the back of a water buffaloe and when someone saw him doing this they were like "Damn, you must know some shit. Hey, please, before you go, can you write something down for us?" So he took a little break, wrote the Tao Te Ching, and then rode the water buffaloe off into the sunset. Funny shit.

And Buddhism is Indian, not Chinese... although it's as well established in China, maybe better, it really is a foreign product. The thing about Taoism is that it can be traced back in China to Chinese shamanism, so it's a system born right out of China. I highly reccomend checking it out, because there is a fairly big distinction between Buddhism and Taoism despite them all being eastern. One big distinction is that taoists usually have wispy beards and thick white hair tied back, but buddhists are usually bald with little burn marks on their skull.

Hmmm.. as far as the final word on anything... I think the I Ching might be the only book on the planet that is the final word on everything. That and zetatalk.com..... NOT. (watch me kick myself in the mouth when planet X arrives and they fly us all away in spaceships).


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 64,435
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: India is Way more cool [Re: Dogomush]
    #1449967 - 04/11/03 03:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Element of Earth rise forth
Water to teach me
Wind on my back
As the fire purifies
I will glide into formlessness
I am that I am


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: India is Way more cool [Re: Shroomism]
    #1449986 - 04/11/03 03:57 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

is that from the tao te ching? This one is, it's pretty sweet:

The best rulers are scarcely known by their subjects;
The next best are loved and praised;
The next are feared;
The next despised:
They have no faith in their people,
And their people become unfaithful to them.

When the best rulers achieve their purpose
Their subjects claim the achievement as their own.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Registered: 02/13/00
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Re: India is Way more cool [Re: Dogomush]
    #1449989 - 04/11/03 03:57 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

No, it's from My-Ching


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
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Re: India is Way more cool [Re: Shroomism]
    #1449994 - 04/11/03 03:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

nice...

yea I was wondering where the metal element was


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Invisibledjfrog
omgws!!!1!

Registered: 10/23/00
Posts: 3,710
Re: India is Way more cool [Re: Dogomush]
    #1454220 - 04/13/03 05:41 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

oh, I was thinking Tao Te Ching.

The I Ching is total rubbish.


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OfflineDogomush
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Registered: 10/05/02
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Re: India is Way more cool [Re: djfrog]
    #1454973 - 04/13/03 06:09 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

You serious? Please elaborate.


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Invisibledjfrog
omgws!!!1!

Registered: 10/23/00
Posts: 3,710
Re: India is Way more cool [Re: Dogomush]
    #1456757 - 04/14/03 12:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Heh no I'm not serious, I was just trying to save face after making a dumb mistake.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
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Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: India is Way more cool [Re: djfrog]
    #1459029 - 04/15/03 01:51 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

if were talking about taoism, then lets forget the I-ching and LaoTzu, they are irrelevent. ZhuangZi is the real mutherfucker who took things to the next level.

Laozi basically placated the government and beleived that taoist priests should control the minds of the masses, while zhuangzi's writings spawned the first anarchists in recorded human history. and plus, dont forget, zhuangzi was the forefather of Chan (zen) buddhism, he was one cool mo-fo.



--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
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Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: India is Way more cool [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1459076 - 04/15/03 02:20 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

funksoldier,

why don't you try opening your mind out of the box that is your institutionalized education?


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: India is Way more cool [Re: Dogomush]
    #1459079 - 04/15/03 02:22 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Oh, and buddhists are brainwashed slaves, even the one's who call themselves "zen"


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
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Re: India is Way more cool [Re: Dogomush]
    #1461746 - 04/15/03 10:05 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

sure dogomush, ill try opening my mind, once you WAKE UP.

WAKE UP PEOPLE, YOUR ALL A BUNCH OF MINDLESS CONSUMERS

TV HAS BRAINWASHED YOU WAKE UP BEFORE ITS TO LAAAAAAAAAAATE!!!


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: India is Way more cool [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1462050 - 04/15/03 11:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

my shroom rating is higher than yours


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