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InvisibleFreedomFight
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Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 427
Tao Te Ching #13
    #4568556 - 08/22/05 11:59 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.

What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
you position is shaky.
When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
you will always keep your balance.

What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?
Hope and fear are both phantoms
that arise from thinking of the self.
When we don't see the self as self,
what do we have to fear?

See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things.

--enjoy--


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: FreedomFight]
    #4568588 - 08/23/05 12:03 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Here is the rest of it:
http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/taoism/ttcstan3.htm
enjoy...but anyone worth their salt should have read it already.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: FreedomFight]
    #4568633 - 08/23/05 12:10 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I've read the Tao Te Ching multiple times, perhaps a dozen or so, and there is wisdom and knowledge contained in it. But it almost seems too content; if the entire human race were true Taoists, I wonder if anything great would be done.

With Taoists as the exception, it's comforting to look at these people, living under the delusion of oneness, content in the Tao, but it's the irregularity of these people among the general population that makes them comforting. They're not always striving and overcoming, like great humans will do. Perhaps they're just interesting like surreal paintings on the wall, simply there to leave an impression and not to strive for greatness.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleFreedomFight
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: Ravus]
    #4568760 - 08/23/05 12:35 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, its thought-provoking but for me it is little more than that. I just like to hear other people's thoughts so that I can put my own into context.


--------------------
I do not grow anything illegal.
I do not sell anything.
I am, however, a very curious individual.
I also try to be helpful.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: FreedomFight]
    #4569145 - 08/23/05 02:06 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

" I've read the Tao Te Ching multiple times, perhaps a dozen or so, and there is wisdom and knowledge contained in it. But it almost seems too content; if the entire human race were true Taoists, I wonder if anything great would be done."

everything would get done and much more efficiently. if i follow the tao when im at work i do my job flawlesssly and do not stop until everything is accomplished. if i distract myself with thoughts and desires i make mistakes and cut corners. also, what would it matter? if everyone did not think of themself, what would it matter if "nothing got done" and to whom?
"the delusion of oneness,'

who says its a delusion? i already explained the reason for the claim of oneness to you in another thread. if there is no self there is no one to be deluded. ideas like "oneness" and "seperateness" are mere thoughts. give up thinking and their reality dissapears leaving only the tao.

"content in the Tao, but it's the irregularity of these people among the general population that makes them comforting. They're not always striving and overcoming, like great humans will do. Perhaps they're just interesting like surreal paintings on the wall, simply there to leave an impression and not to strive for greatness. "

define greatness.


Edited by Deviate (08/23/05 02:09 AM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: Deviate]
    #4569257 - 08/23/05 02:35 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

everything would get done and much more efficiently. if i follow the tao when im at work i do my job flawlesssly and do not stop until everything is accomplished. if i distract myself with thoughts and desires i make mistakes and cut corners. also, what would it matter? if everyone did not think of themself, what would it matter if "nothing got done" and to whom?




For normal jobs Taoism is alright (though we may have a rise in hermits  :wink:) but I'm talking about the philosophers and artists and inventors. Many of these people create through their inner turmoil and tension- if they became true Taoists, realizing the delusion of oneness and laying their inner turmoil to rest, who knows what would happen to art and philosophy? Would Nietzsche, van Gogh, Munch, Poe and other great artists and philosophers have achieved greatness if they had the Tao?

Quote:

who says its a delusion? i already explained the reason for the claim of oneness to you in another thread. if there is no self there is no one to be deluded. ideas like "oneness" and "seperateness" are mere thoughts. give up thinking and their reality dissapears leaving only the tao.





"If there is no self", you say, but indeed there is a self, and through this self we can have greatness and overcoming. You say give up thinking, but why give up thinking? We have developed ideas and concepts and genuine human thought for thousands of generations- you could say these thoughts are what make humans unique. To give up thinking!- would this not be a return to the human animal?

Quote:

define greatness.




Greatness is like love; it is hard to define, but when you experience it or read it or see it in art you know it has been achieved. If you have not experienced greatness, I don't really know how to explain it. Perhaps you could say greatness is what makes some humans different- it's what the artists create in their most creative intoxications and what philosophers create when they escape from the herd mentality and realize a completely unique and personal way of thinking.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: Ravus]
    #4569290 - 08/23/05 02:51 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

"For normal jobs Taoism is alright (though we may have a rise in hermits ) but I'm talking about the philosophers and artists and inventors. Many of these people create through their inner turmoil and tension- if they became true Taoists, realizing the delusion of oneness and laying their inner turmoil to rest, who knows what would happen to art and philosophy? Would Nietzsche, van Gogh, Munch, Poe and other great artists and philosophers have achieved greatness if they had the Tao?"

they would have acheived a different kind of greatness, namely the kind that is one with the tao. all inventions, music, art and philosophy would fully reflect and express the tao.

""If there is no self", you say, but indeed there is a self, and through this self we can have greatness and overcoming."

each self is merely an individualization of the tao. greatness and overcomming are only done by the tao which bears all burdens. the individual self only appears to do these things from the point of view which is ingorant of the tao.

" You say give up thinking, but why give up thinking? We have developed ideas and concepts and genuine human thought for thousands of generations- you could say these thoughts are what make humans unique. To give up thinking!- would this not be a return to the human animal?"

i say give up thinking to prove that all these things you treat as real are merely cocnepts, or imagined. they only have as much reality as we give them and if we were to stop thinking of them they would cease to be a part of our reality. there is no need to literally give up thinking.



Edited by Deviate (08/23/05 02:54 AM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: Deviate]
    #4569304 - 08/23/05 03:04 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

they would have acheived a different kind of greatness, namely the kind that is one with the tao. all inventions, music, art and philosophy would fully reflect and express the tao.




Assuming there is a Tao, yet I don't see any evidence of the Tao helping humanity. Humans function fine without realizing the Tao (if it exists); they create great artwork and philosophies still being completely filled with inner strife. So why is the Tao necessary if we can function without realizing it? Doesn't that make it just another extra philosophy?

Quote:

each self is merely an individualization of the tao. greatness and overcomming are only done by the tao which bears all burdens. the individual self only appears to do these things from the point of view which is ingorant of the tao.




And how do you know this? Perhaps the Tao is only a delusion of the self; take away the self and you've got nothing. And the Tao is not Nihilism, though they may be intertwined ways of thinking.

The Tao that can be talked about is not the Eternal Tao, but perhaps this is because the Tao is just an etheral dream of the self that vaporizes upon contact with logic?

Quote:

i say give up thinking to prove that all these things you treat as real are merely cocnepts, or imagined. they only have as much reality as we give them and if we were to stop thinking of them they would cease to be a part of our reality. there is no need to literally give up thinking.




But what's the difference? To temporarily give up thinking as a way of seeing the concepts only exist in the self is to temporarily try to view things from the viewpoint of the human animal. Even if you go back to human thinking, you haven't achieved much growth in a logical sense, because you've simply regressed to the thoughtless state which humans tens of thousands of years ago could have potentially existed in.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: Ravus]
    #4569334 - 08/23/05 03:30 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

"Assuming there is a Tao, yet I don't see any evidence of the Tao helping humanity. Humans function fine without realizing the Tao (if it exists); they create great artwork and philosophies still being completely filled with inner strife. So why is the Tao necessary if we can function without realizing it? Doesn't that make it just another extra philosophy?"

everyone knows the tao intimately as there is nothing which is apart from the tao. the tao is the way things work. everyone knows that in order to do anything they must make use of the tao, some people just don't concioussly recognize themselves as also being the tao. the philosophy of the tao is no more necessary than any other philosophy, it arose in response to conflict.

"And how do you know this? Perhaps the Tao is only a delusion of the self; take away the self and you've got nothing. And the Tao is not Nihilism, though they may be intertwined ways of thinking.

The Tao that can be talked about is not the Eternal Tao, but perhaps this is because the Tao is just an etheral dream of the self that vaporizes upon contact with logic?"

i know it because ive taken away the self and there was still the tao. you may only be able to conceptualize it as nothing but the tao is not nothing, it encompasses both existance and nothingness. it's just what is with no concepts and thus no ignorance to comfound it or misrepresent it as anything other than what it is. a simple direct experience. "the way" is the best name for it.


"But what's the difference? To temporarily give up thinking as a way of seeing the concepts only exist in the self is to temporarily try to view things from the viewpoint of the human animal. Even if you go back to human thinking, you haven't achieved much growth in a logical sense, because you've simply regressed to the thoughtless state which humans tens of thousands of years ago could have potentially existed in. "

youve acheived the knowledge of what it is to know nothing which serves as an aid to logical thought. it gives you a reference point to start from.


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OfflineVarthDader
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: Deviate]
    #4569472 - 08/23/05 06:50 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It doesn?t matter


you can both believe what you want


its still just a belief


none of you really know

neither do I

why not just end all this superstition and worry about real life? Live real life?

why quarell and argue over something which none of os will ever be 100% sure about ?


Edited by varthdader (08/23/05 06:51 AM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: VarthDader]
    #4570889 - 08/23/05 03:04 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Why think or talk at all even? We could just sit curled up in a ball, rocking back and forth as our blank minds process nothing.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineVarthDader
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: Ravus]
    #4570995 - 08/23/05 03:31 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

hmm .... the cutting-down-on-thinking-plan might be good, ... but personally, I would improve on the sitting/curling/rocking-plan


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: VarthDader]
    #4571394 - 08/23/05 05:36 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Why? What is the purpose of cutting down on thinking? Thinking is what makes our personality and knowledge grow. We'll simply exist either way, so we might as well think while we're doing it.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineVarthDader
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: Ravus]
    #4571441 - 08/23/05 05:46 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Oh I don?t think there is any purpose, I just liked the idea thats all


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: VarthDader]
    #4571474 - 08/23/05 05:54 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

cutting down on thinking can sharpen your intuition, increase your focus and give you a greater enjoyment of your perceptions. in my experience at least.


Edited by Deviate (08/23/05 06:26 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: Ravus]
    #4571587 - 08/23/05 06:28 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

The Tao does not advocate complacency or conformity. It stresses personal freedom. Your estimation that nothing would get down were it more widely utilised is flawed. The Tao is not making suggestions. It is bluntly stating the laws of our existance which are quite independant from us. It is The Way...not a suggestion...The Way.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4571699 - 08/23/05 07:05 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

This is the part of Taoism that most do not get. Great post.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: Icelander]
    #4572531 - 08/23/05 10:32 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I read the Tao Te Ching about a dozen times. Everytime you read it you come away with more. I keep it linked in my browser favorites and read it often. Here is the translation I use. It is a good one, but I have read 2 other translations. The poetic ones are the best and easiest to read.
http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/taoism/ttcstan3.htm
I posted the link already at the beginning but here it is for any that missed it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4572542 - 08/23/05 10:33 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It is a software manual for the human machine.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Tao Te Ching #13 [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4572844 - 08/23/05 11:26 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Tao does not advocate complacency or conformity. It stresses personal freedom. Your estimation that nothing would get down were it more widely utilised is flawed. The Tao is not making suggestions. It is bluntly stating the laws of our existance which are quite independant from us. It is The Way...not a suggestion...The Way.




"Let us not be aggressors,
but defend."
"Let us not advance an inch,
but retreat a foot."
-69

Good warriors do not arm,
good fighters don't get mad,
good winners don't contend,
good employers serve their workers.
-68

For the Way you lose daily.
Losing and losing,
thus you reach noncontrivance;
be uncontrived, and nothing is not done.
Taking the world is always done
by not making anything of it.
-48

I'm not a Taoist, but if everybody followed the Tao Te Ching I stick with my statement; I do not believe there would be the great artists and philosophers we have had, because, after all, "good winners do not contend." :wink:

If there is a Tao, in my opinion it is the sum total of all existence and nothingness, and therefore there is no one who isn't following the Tao, because we are the Tao. The Tao Te Ching, in that light, becomes useless, because existence and nothingness are always there, and there's no way to become part of them anymore than we already are. Everybody is the Tao equally, and therefore you can't say colors blind the eyes, because colors are also part of the Tao, along with all of the self. After all, how could anything exist outside the Tao?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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