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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27747982 -

Discussing honestly is an option

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27748623 -

Yes.  Please discuss honestly what option(s) I missed?


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27748722 -

I just did.

I said you were building strawmen and you responded with

Quote:
What other option is there?


I'm not going to list off the many options one has with regard to logical fallacies

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27748922 -

Me asking a question about your position is different than me misrepresenting your position (a straw man).

You seem to be against Russia ensuring a peaceful referendum, and you seem to be against Far Right interference in the referendum.

So I'm asking again, what your position is.  I could only see those two options, but you may have thought of others.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27749279 -

You’re assuming a bunch of things here

- that Russia is deploying troops for a peaceful referendum
- that a peaceful referendum can’t exist without Russian troops
- that far right interference doesn’t include Russian troops

to name a few.


Russia was gaming Ukrainian politics just fine before 2014 without overt violence, they can do the same now.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27749528 -

When it comes to Russia, falcon shuts down all critical thinking.  Russia is the hero. Nothing the hero does can be bad.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #27749681 -

Like I told chopstick, be pro Russia if you want, but formulate some sort of salient reasoning behind that support. Repeating official talking points ad nauseum ain’t it. I get that there’s the fog of war and that it’s difficult to disseminate information, but come on man.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #27749769 -

The Ecstatic said:
You’re assuming a bunch of things here

- that Russia is deploying troops for a peaceful referendum
- that a peaceful referendum can’t exist without Russian troops
- that far right interference doesn’t include Russian troops

to name a few.


Russia was gaming Ukrainian politics just fine before 2014 without overt violence, they can do the same now.


Never did I say Russia didn't have other reasons to want the referendum. Obviously they wanted to protect their only warm water base from a Western takeover.

But the Government of Ukraine had just been overthrown.  Is it your opinion that the new Far Right government would have allowed a peaceful referendum calling for Crimea to split from Ukraine and rejoin Russia???


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (04/24/22 05:08 PM)

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #27749783 -

Enlil said:
When it comes to Russia, falcon shuts down all critical thinking.  Russia is the hero. Nothing the hero does can be bad.


If you're going to dismiss my critical thinking, I'd really appreciate some examples, rather than just you flinging blind insults.  And no, I don't think Russia is a hero that can't  do anything bad.  But everyone else points those things already so I generally don't have to.  I tend to point out the information that the mainstream news doesn't cover, or I point out the lies that get told.  If I get something wrong, I WANT you to chime in with counter-evidence.

But I guess you seem to prefer hurling blind insults.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27749891 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The Ecstatic said:
You’re assuming a bunch of things here

- that Russia is deploying troops for a peaceful referendum
- that a peaceful referendum can’t exist without Russian troops
- that far right interference doesn’t include Russian troops

to name a few.


Russia was gaming Ukrainian politics just fine before 2014 without overt violence, they can do the same now.


Never did I say Russia didn't have other reasons to want the referendum. Obviously they wanted to protect their only warm water base from a Western takeover.

But the Government of Ukraine had just been overthrown.  Is it your opinion that the new Far Right government would have allowed a peaceful referendum calling for Crimea to split from Ukraine and rejoin Russia???


Of course not, but that’s a consequence of losing your own puppet regime via Yanukovych. Being able to control decisions like that is why both the US and Russia are vying for control of that state. You can obviously argue that soft power is just as coercive as overt power but then we’re just back to some philosophical debate.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27750162 -

The Ecstatic said:
...that’s a consequence of losing your own puppet regime via Yanukovych. Being able to control decisions like that is why both the US and Russia are vying for control of that state. You can obviously argue that soft power is just as coercive as overt power but then we’re just back to some philosophical debate.


But Yanukovych wasn't a Russia puppet; you shouldn't believe everything the NY Times tells you.  Yanukovych tried to have good relations with both sides.  What happened is that Russia offered Ukraine a better gas deal than the US did, and Yanukovych took it.  That wasn't acceptable to the US because you're either with us, or you're with Russia, you're not supposed to take both sides in our eyes.

So all the mainstream outlets called Yanukovych a Russia puppet, and that's the kind of false information that I (and many others) are trying to dispel.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27750210 -

:hmm:


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Give me Liberty caps or give me Death caps.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27750303 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The Ecstatic said:
...that’s a consequence of losing your own puppet regime via Yanukovych. Being able to control decisions like that is why both the US and Russia are vying for control of that state. You can obviously argue that soft power is just as coercive as overt power but then we’re just back to some philosophical debate.


But Yanukovych wasn't a Russia puppet; you shouldn't believe everything the NY Times tells you.  Yanukovych tried to have good relations with both sides.  What happened is that Russia offered Ukraine a better gas deal than the US did, and Yanukovych took it.  That wasn't acceptable to the US because you're either with us, or you're with Russia, you're not supposed to take both sides in our eyes.

So all the mainstream outlets called Yanukovych a Russia puppet, and that's the kind of false information that I (and many others) are trying to dispel.


Zelensky isn’t a US puppet dude you shouldn’t believe everything you see on RT. What happened was Ukraine wanted a centrist in power that didn’t lean too far either way, so they elected Zelensky. That wasn’t acceptable to Russia because etc etc etc you see how easy this is?

No matter what you want to call Yanukovych, the fact remains that he maintained Russian influence in Ukraine so much so that the US staged a coup, which was helped along by the fact that Ukraine has always been incredibly corrupt and Yanukovych was the face of that corruption at the time.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27750309 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The Ecstatic said:
You’re assuming a bunch of things here

- that Russia is deploying troops for a peaceful referendum
- that a peaceful referendum can’t exist without Russian troops
- that far right interference doesn’t include Russian troops

to name a few.


Russia was gaming Ukrainian politics just fine before 2014 without overt violence, they can do the same now.


Never did I say Russia didn't have other reasons to want the referendum. Obviously they wanted to protect their only warm water base from a Western takeover.

But the Government of Ukraine had just been overthrown.  Is it your opinion that the new Far Right government would have allowed a peaceful referendum calling for Crimea to split from Ukraine and rejoin Russia???


"their only warm water base"
'Their'
It hasn't been theirs for 31 years.
Putin said in reference to Ukraine quite a while before this war, "Lenin took it, it belongs to us."
That is the one and only thing this war has ever been about.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

Simulacrum
The truth which conceals that there is none

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27750324 -

Warm water ports, historically a very important strategic goal for Russia, it ended up causing the Russo Japanese War, which Tsar Nicolas promptly lost.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27750361 -

I know. I was just trying to figure out how he was saying it was theirs, when it hadn't been since 91.

Speaking of Nicholas II, Putin is going to get lumped in with him now; the biggest losers in Russian history.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

Simulacrum
The truth which conceals that there is none

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27750461 -

Mo army, Mo problems.

Seriously though, it was an issue when railways were the hot new ticket for supply lines and it's still an issue

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27750482 -

Brian Jones said:
I know. I was just trying to figure out how he was saying it was theirs, when it hadn't been since 91.

Speaking of Nicholas II, Putin is going to get lumped in with him now; the biggest losers in Russian history.


Idk about that, Putin has strung together some W’s whereas Nicholas was just relentlessly stupid. We’ll see how this Ukraine thing plays out, certainly doesn’t look like it’ll end well, but even if Ukraine makes concessions in respect to NATO/EU membership or recognition of sovereignty in the east, Putin will just spin that as a win. “I punched the west in the nose and made them say sorry.” People in Russia aren’t stupid, Putin is very much like their Biden in that they understand the political reality around his leadership. He’s constrained by the ruling class to not do much, but it’s a steady continuation. Last time the Russian government was led by a U.S. crony their lives went to shit, they didn’t forget that.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27750660 -

The Ecstatic said:
Zelensky isn’t a US puppet dude you shouldn’t believe everything you see on RT. What happened was Ukraine wanted a centrist in power that didn’t lean too far either way, so they elected Zelensky.


Actually, you're right so far.  Zelensky WAS elected to make peace with the ethnic Russian territories.  Both sides will agree to this, so I don't think this point is really in question.

But the Far Right has been pushing for war, we've seen plenty of evidence for this and they claim they have been working with the US. 

It's not about believing the NY Times (that we know lies all the time) or RT (which no one has yet found any fake news from), it's about looking at ALL the available evidence from all sides and making logical conclusions from the facts that are hard to dispute.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27750664 -

Brian Jones said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Obviously they wanted to protect their only warm water base from a Western takeover.


"their only warm water base"
'Their'
It hasn't been theirs for 31 years.
Putin said in reference to Ukraine quite a while before this war, "Lenin took it, it belongs to us."
That is the one and only thing this war has ever been about.


Are we going to get into an Enlil semantics debate here?  Russia had a lease agreement with Ukraine to keep its naval facilities in Crimea until 2042.

How about this:

"Obviously they wanted to protect their only warm water base, which was being leased from Ukraine through 2042, from a Western takeover."

Better?

It doesn't change a thing.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Political Discussion
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