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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: BCBudJohn]
    #4370784 - 07/04/05 11:41 PM (15 years, 9 days ago)

I'm chilling in Vancouver right now. It seems cool here. Lots of cute
Asian chicks are here. I might consider moving to Ole Canada for that reason alone.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4370879 - 07/05/05 12:11 AM (15 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:

There were no Canadians in the Gulf War of 1991? You might want to check your facts, dude. There are no Canadians in Afghanistan? Repeat after me... "Google is my friend".

Phred





And let us not forget how Canadians fought so valiantly along side the US in WWII (and other major conflicts as well). They were a major military presence in all the major campaigns with the US against the Germans, including the D-Day invasion....


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4370917 - 07/05/05 12:24 AM (15 years, 9 days ago)

ToiletDuk writes:

Quote:

And let us not forget how Canadians fought so valiantly along side the US in WWII (and other major conflicts as well). They were a major military presence in all the major campaigns with the US against the Germans, including the D-Day invasion....




Indeed. There was a time when Canada's military was no joke. That doesn't alter the fact that it is today and has been for decades.



Phred


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: BCBudJohn]
    #4370966 - 07/05/05 12:44 AM (15 years, 9 days ago)

BCBudJohn writes:

Quote:

Canadas public health-care system is still very young, of course it will be shaky to start.




Four decades is "young"? If you say so, Gramps.

Quote:

Taxation is a necessary part of a socialist system. By its very nature, there is more government to pay for, which is what canadians have chosen.




Yet another reason to denigrate Canada (and by extension, Canadians). Canada is (with the exception of Cuba) the most Socialist-oriented country in the Western hemisphere since the Sandinistas were voted out of power. Hell, even the Nicaraguans reject Socialism. Canadians embrace it.

Quote:

The scandals the canadian government has undertaken are generally speaking less reprehensible and less dramatic than our neighbours. IMO.




In the sense that it's only Canadians getting screwed, perhaps. What I find reprehensible is that Canadians would prefer to re-elect and re-elect a party known by all to be corrupt to its core rather than risk having to actually do something for themselves. Give up a shred of Nanny State cradle-to-grave mollycoddling -- which they don't even get anyway (see Canadian Medicare)? Perish the thought!

Quote:

If you see how canadians responded in world war I and world war II, you would see an important aspect of canadas military is to defend itself from imminent and legitimate threats.




Defend itself? Get real. Hitler posed no threat whatsoever to Canada, either imminent or legitimate, nor did the Kaiser. But Canadian bomber pilots incinerated thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of defenseless German civilians.

Quote:

Unfortunately, an un-moderated capitalist system leaves people behind, and takes away oppurtunity for those who are not already rich. Rich get richer, poor get poorer.




That myth is a topic for a different thread (although there are only about a hundred and eighty such threads scattered through the archives of this forum already), but any perceived evils of Capitalism are certainly no danger to Canadians.



Phred


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OfflineBCBudJohn
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4371141 - 07/05/05 01:45 AM (15 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Four decades is "young"? If you say so, Gramps.




You said yourself the world lacks precedence for socialist based health-care systems. It will take trial and error to work out the best-value for money, universal healthcare system. Canadians have expressed a national interest in this, so it will be explored in time. I'm sure you heard of the courts decision in quebec to allow private clinics while the government twiddles its thumbs. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the system is perfect, i do however believe the idea of universal healthcare is one worth working towards (and yes this will entail long wait lists at times, but its better than just being out of luck if it were completely privatised with no insurance)

Yet another reason to denigrate Canada (and by extension, Canadians). Canada is (with the exception of Cuba) the most Socialist-oriented country in the Western hemisphere since the Sandinistas were voted out of power. Hell, even the Nicaraguans reject Socialism. Canadians embrace it.

I don't mind paying high taxes to help out my fellow man.

Quote:

In the sense that it's only Canadians getting screwed, perhaps. What I find reprehensible is that Canadians would prefer to re-elect and re-elect a party known by all to be corrupt to its core rather than risk having to actually do something for themselves.




And vote for whom, one of the other .. two choices? If you're not for sticking our nose up the americans asses and electing that blubbering idiot harper (who can show no merit for his party other than by contrast to the liberals) or the NDP who would waste away the economy on principles as they have demonstrated when elected provincially in BC, you take into account what the corrupt liberal government has wasted my money on, and what they've actually accomplished and the choice is obvious for me.

Theres even less choice in the US. Demo-crap and re-poop system.

Give up a shred of Nanny State cradle-to-grave mollycoddling -- which they don't even get anyway (see Canadian Medicare)? Perish the thought!

The idea is quality of life, equality for all in the name of freedom. A noble pursuit in my opinion. I wasn't put on earth to push my way through life helping myself along, while forgetting the rest. Why is the idea of universal care so intimidating? Its like having a huge extended family, everyone benefits in the end, and if you aren't willing to take a few hits for the team, you don't deserve to be on it. (now its the REAL hippy liberal BS, eh?) Universal care doesn't negate meritocracy. Ensuring poverty for many, abundance for few does.

Quote:

Defend itself? Get real. Hitler posed no threat whatsoever to Canada, either imminent or legitimate, nor did the Kaiser. But Canadian bomber pilots incinerated thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of defenseless German civilians.




I was proving our ability to mobilize to action on that which we feel strongly about. If we cared about having a big ass military, and we may one day, i'm sure we will move towards it. Thats what freedom is for.


--------------------
Peace
John


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4371444 - 07/05/05 06:24 AM (15 years, 9 days ago)

I still don't understand why so many here are quick to bash Canada. I can't count how many times I've seen this debate in the year-and-a-half I've been here. I've yet to see one (one!) current Canadian wander into PA&L and say that they are opposed to Canadian culture or the Canadian brand of socialism. And the Shroomery is not at a loss for canucks. They are obviously relatively happy with how their country generally manages itself. That doesn't mean it's good or bad or right or wrong or preferrable. It just means that, so far, it works for them. It obviously would not work in America. So fine, discuss it, debate it, say what you like. I just don't understand the knee jerk revulsion people show to our northern neighbors.

As for the 2020 thing, 15 years is not long. Candians will still have long lines at the hospital. Americans will still have global dominance and all the nasty things that go along with it. People will still be here making the same threads.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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OfflineRiverMan
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Gijith]
    #4371752 - 07/05/05 09:37 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

I just don't see why people (usually Americans, probably because they are more in number on these boards, I guess) simply go ahead and bash any socialist state, turning every single point we make to justify ourselves to ridicule. And I thought McCarthism was gone for good! I guess not everyone is open-minded enough to simply try and understand the basic principles of socialism, or communism for that matter. Heck, its not because certain POLITICAL doctrines have been turned to bloodshed in the past that they were meant so. If so, then capitalism would be amongst the most gruesome political doctrines still in place today.

As I see it, the people who machinely bash socialism/communism people are cold-hearted capitalists who don't give a shit about others and will only think of others when it becomes profitable in terms of money.

This may only be my opinion, but the fact of the matter is you can continue to ridicule us all you want, we've succeederd in building a better society for all Canadians over the years once we made the decision to run a social democracy. All the comparisons you make with the US about healthcare, businesses, taxation, etc. are only those you know of. They are what you see in your little upper-class world. Just venture in the lower corners of America and then come and tell me you've achieved what you speak of for ALL americans, that you've not left behind anyone. You'll then perhaps aknowledge America works in 2 different worlds : the world in which people get what they need because they can afford it and the others who have to struggle everyday to meet their basic needs.

In the minds of Canadians, this is what differentiates us from you. And if America is such a perfect world to you, then why is Canada ahead of the US in terms of quality of life ? (United Nations Development Programme - Human Development Report 2002, 2003, 2004 web: http://www.undp.org) I usually don't like such listings but I noticed some of you needed to see "sources" or whatever.... It's on the web anyway!

To come back to Phred's posts, well I still have some things to address :

"Canadians as a whole (and yes I realize this cannot be said of every single Canadian) are an envious bunch..."
Well, let's just end the charade and call you God right away! Who are you to judge the caracters of 30 million people? Maybe you met a couple of envious people up North in all those years, but it doesn't give you the right to generalize your experience to a whole nation. Believe me, I've met some stupid, fat, poorly educated, etc. people in the US and I won't go and state that I believe that most americans are also like that. That would be just plain dumb.


"They can't bear to think that anyone might have anything more than they do, no matter how hard that person worked to get it. But rather than make it easier for everyone to get more, they have decided it's better to make sure no one can get anything"
Well, the way I see it we just let everyone get the same no matter if they are rich or poor. That may create some problems, but I believe they can be fixed. Not everything is "hopeless", as you might think. And if you are used to higher standards of medecine than that of Canada, then good for you. But pray to God you don't go bankrupt because I can tell you you'll be remembering the good old days when you got free and decent treatment up North...

"Indeed. There was a time when Canada's military was no joke. That doesn't alter the fact that it is today and has been for decades."
I wouldn't call a conscripted army a "no-joke" army if you ask me. I'd call it more of a sacrifice. Not a very useful one I might add.

"Dude, if I can't understand what a sales clerk is saying to me, I'll shop elsewhere. Of course, as a longtime resident of Ottawa and a frequent visitor to Hull, Aylmer, Gatineau, and Montreal, I've run into the situation of having salesclerks refuse to speak to me in English countless times. Hell, it's happened to me in border towns on the Ontario side of the river as well, and a couple of times even in Vanier (a Francophone section of Ottawa). No sweat off my nose. "
The point is Quebec is a French-speaking state. Its official language is in fact French. As a Quebec resident, the "Charte de la langue francaise" tells me that : "Le droit des consommateurs d'?tre inform?s et servis en fran?ais." (Titre I, art. 4) This means when I go shopping near home I have the right to be served in French. Unfortunately for you, English is legally the second language in Quebec. The only place in the province where YOU would be served in English ALL the time would be in a federal-regulated institution. (since the federal gov.'s position is that Canada is a bilingual country...my ass! They should open their eyes and see that lots of people outside of Quebec don't care about learning French and that lots of peope in Quebec don't care about English either...) And it would also be in such institutions that I would be guaranteed to be spoken to in French if I traveled in the other provinces.

"Hell, even the Nicaraguans reject Socialism. Canadians embrace it. "
Well, I'd like to tell you a little story about a man named ROnald Reagan and his buddies, the Contras... Or maybe the millions and millions poured into right-wing parties in the Eighties. So, officially (and once again), Americans reject Socialism. Leave them poor Nicaraguans out of this for God's sake!


Anyways, this exchange of thoughts could last for years the way I see it... so I'll just leave you alone at your justifications for now.
At least try to remember you're a mere human, just like all of us, and what most of what you think is right comes from beliefs, and not thoughts. Arguing over beliefs is just pointless, as I could condition myself to believe I hold the truth.


--------------------
A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: niteowl]
    #4371774 - 07/05/05 09:46 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

niteowl said: What have they done to piss you off?


Their missile defense decision pissed me off.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: RiverMan]
    #4371868 - 07/05/05 10:26 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

Socialism is not the answer, but it's stupid and hypocritical to bash Canada's socialized medicine without noting the advantages it has over our own corporatized medicine. In terms of bringing keeping the majority of the population healthy, Canada's system has us beat. But I would venture to say it's because we don't have a free market in medicine. What we have instead is a government-protected oligopoly of pharmaceutical companies and a wide array of harmful regulations which cause inflate the price of medicine and medical insurance. To hold up America's health care system as the ideal, or even as largely preferable to the Canadian system, is to show an unwillingness to fully investigate the problem.


--------------------


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4371878 - 07/05/05 10:30 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

That myth is a topic for a different thread (although there are only about a hundred and eighty such threads scattered through the archives of this forum already), but any perceived evils of Capitalism are certainly no danger to Canadians

The same can be said about America. "Any perceived evils of Canada's Socialism are certainly no danger to America"

If you don't like their government don't live there.

Bashing their government only makes you look childish and immature :shrug:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: niteowl]
    #4372421 - 07/05/05 01:58 PM (15 years, 8 days ago)

Niteowl writes:

Quote:

If you don't like their government don't live there.




I don't like their government, so I no longer live there. I've lived outside Canada for the last third of my life.

Quote:

Bashing their government only makes you look childish and immature.




LOL! But bashing the US government is a sign of maturity and superior intelligence. Uh huh.

I have more right to bash the government of Canada than any Canadian poster I have yet met in this forum by the simple fact that I lived longer in Canada than any of them have so far. I can guarantee you I had more money seized from me by the Canadian government than any two of them (perhaps three) put together.

It never ceases to amuse me watching people who have never lived in the US (Canadians and Europeans) bashing it mindlessly while getting their facts wrong. And how odd that the American posters here who choose to bash their government are never told they are being childish and immature. Yet someone who was born and raised and educated and worked in Canada for three and a half decades, who has lived in seven out of the ten provinces (and spent at least some time in the other three) and all three northern territories, who has worked at everything from setting pins in a bowling alley to selling clothes and cars and stereo and computers to assembling electronics to sorting mail by hand (and served as a union steward to boot) in Canada is told he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Every point I made about Canada is true. When the Canadian posters in this forum eventually get jobs they'll change their tunes about how wonderful it is. Or when they spend more than a year on crutches waiting for arthroscopic surgery, whichever comes first.


Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4372433 - 07/05/05 02:06 PM (15 years, 8 days ago)

So let's review. In my opening post I said that:

-- Canada's single-tier health "care" system is fucked. No one has shown otherwise.

-- The ruling Liberal Party is corrupt and has been for decades. No one has disputed this.

-- The level of taxation is confiscatory. Again, no one disputes this, they just say they love high taxes and suggest those who don't should leave.

-- Government regulations hinder business owners to a much greater degree than in the US. No one disputes this either (probably because no one who responded knows anything about business)

-- Canadians are addicted to their Nanny State. Yet again, no one disputes this.

-- Canadian military is a joke and has been for decades. Surprise surprise, no one disputes this either, just says it doesn't bother them.

Looks like my work here is done.




Phred


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4372477 - 07/05/05 02:28 PM (15 years, 8 days ago)

When the Canadian posters in this forum eventually get jobs they'll change their tunes about how wonderful it is.

Nice sweeping motion there!

What makes you think the "Canadian posters" as a group don't have jobs? What kind of logic is that?

For your information, I (for one) do have a job. I work full-time, and have worked full-time for several years now.

Working full time, and having so much of my paycheque taken from me, has not changed my "tune" about how wonderful it is to live in Canada.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't mind paying taxes for what I get. Perhaps you overlooked that statement the other times I've said it :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineShdwstr
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4372480 - 07/05/05 02:29 PM (15 years, 8 days ago)

I see a lot of reasons why Canadians would be upset with our government.

Not one reason why an American would even care, nevermind dislike Canadians.
Unless it's the fact that the American Government has made the U.S. the most hated counry in the world, and Canada is liked by all. (Except SOME Americans it seems)

:laugh:

And what government of any country, isn't filled with coruption?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4372503 - 07/05/05 02:38 PM (15 years, 8 days ago)

trendal writes:

Quote:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't mind paying taxes for what I get. Perhaps you overlooked that statement the other times I've said it.




Perhaps you overlooked this statement of mine in the post to which you were replying:

"-- The level of taxation is confiscatory. Again, no one disputes this, they just say they love high taxes and suggest those who don't should leave."



Phred


--------------------


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4372550 - 07/05/05 03:00 PM (15 years, 8 days ago)

Actually I hadn't even seen that post when I wrote my last, which is why the quote I replied to wasn't in the post you just quoted :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4372582 - 07/05/05 03:08 PM (15 years, 8 days ago)

Also, please note that I have not, and will not, say anything like "I love high taxes"...because that's just plain silly.

I don't "love", or particularly like, high taxes.

I am willing to pay high taxes provided I receive benefits in return. I think I do receive benefits in return for the taxes I pay, so I am perfectly willing to continue paying them so long as the services remain.


Your assertion is equivalent to saying that someone who works long hours to get paid extra salary "loves working long hours"....when that isn't the case! They love money and are willing to work long hours to get it. :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4372891 - 07/05/05 04:45 PM (15 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't mind paying taxes for what I get. Perhaps you overlooked that statement the other times I've said it :wink:



If you don't mind paying for what you get, why not allow numerous companies to offer you a service and you pay for it?  If you are so happy to pay for what you get, why not expect that of every Canadian and allow people to offer them better services?


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleLos_Pepes
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: SoopaX]
    #4373000 - 07/05/05 05:20 PM (15 years, 8 days ago)

I don't even know what street Canada is on. -- Al Capone

http://www.goingpostal.cc/CanadianT-shirts/


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: SoopaX]
    #4373001 - 07/05/05 05:21 PM (15 years, 8 days ago)

I've seen how much private health insurance costs in the US, that's one reason. Private insurance companies don't have a history of providing health care to people out of work or the poor. There is no way to ensure universal access to health care with a multi-provider competitive system.

Canadians as a whole have chosen to give their tax dollars to a public health system time and time again in elections since we adopted public health care.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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