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Offlinelonestar2004
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2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years?
    #4359625 - 07/01/05 03:00 PM (15 years, 9 days ago)




Jul. 1, 2005. 01:00 AM

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Content...ol=968350116795


2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years?

We are in the grip of a disturbing malaise, marked by poor leadership and a consequent lack of vision


RICHARD GWYN

Canada today resembles a marathoner who has run with quiet competence to near to the head of the pack but who now is seized by doubt about whether he can sustain the pace ? indeed, whether he might have to drop out entirely.

This doubt isn't about where we are today. It's about where we may find ourselves the day after tomorrow ? in around 2020, the year the Toronto-based Dominion Institute has chosen as its measuring stick for Canada's future prospects and which is examined in today's special Toronto Star editorial.

In private conversations, the question, "How do you think things will be for Canada in 2020?" repeatedly uncovers a striking, and disturbing, note of underlying pessimism.

No one says that by 2020 we will have shown ourselves and the world that the 21st century will belong to Canada, in an echo of the famous forecast made (wrongly) by prime minister Wilfrid Laurier about the last century.

Instead, quite a few individuals express concern that there will be a good deal less to Canada by 2020 than there is today.

This pessimism isn't based upon an assumption that Quebec will leave. Indeed, some would argue that Quebec has already separated in almost all practical respects so that the last step of symbolic separation is no longer necessary. It is based even less on the assumption that Canada will fall apart and fall into the United States (which actually wouldn't want us).

The character of this attitude, so far as it's possible to guess at, appears to be based on the view that Canada is developing in a way that its whole is becoming increasingly less than the sum of its parts.

That, in ways not easily definable, we are year by year collectively diminishing ourselves.

It doesn't exactly help that Maclean's magazine, hunting for reasons why Canadians should celebrate their achievements this Canada Day, offered that several Canadian actresses are making it big on American television, and that the only North American bishop named as a possible pope was a Canadian (by only one newspaper ? and, anyway, he didn't make the cut).

The most explicit expression of this pessimistic attitude was contained in the recent declaration by the Ottawa-based Council of Chief Executives, which represents 150 of the country's largest corporations, that Canada has become "a nation adrift."

The Dominion Institute's 2020 project, which assumes that in a decade-and-a-half Canada will undergo substantial change, possibly much of it not at all for the better, is another expression of that attitude.

There is also the sense of resignation ? unlike the outpouring of patriotism inspired in the past to similar threats to national unity ? that seems to be the result of the return of the issue of Quebec's possible separation, first by the likely electoral success of the pro-sovereignty Bloc Qu?b?cois in Ottawa and then by the probable election victory of the Parti Qu?b?cois in Quebec City.

The national mood just seems to be confused, cynical and crabby.

At first glance, it's hard to find good reasons for any of this. By many of the basic indicators of national health, we're doing fine.

Our finances are in better shape than any member of the G8, and are bettered in very few industrial democracies (Australia, for one).

Our economic expansion, now a decade old, is one of the longest in our peacetime history. If the United States falters, so will we. But we still have some important reserve assets: Our finances are in the black and our housing price bubble is a lot smaller than almost anyone else's.

In one of the most demanding tests of national character ? the ability to integrate large numbers of newcomers from all over the world ? we have done better by far than any other industrial democracy, with only the U.S. as a serious rival to our performance.

We did undergo a severe blow to our national confidence in the almost-lost Quebec referendum of 1995. But that was a decade ago. By contrast, Americans are having to cope with the national trauma of a potential second Vietnam in Iraq, while Europeans have had their confidence shattered by the crushing rejection of the new constitution of the European Union.

So why the national mood of malaise and self-doubt?

We lack any sense of a national vision, of a collective goal, of a national project. Without it, it's no wonder that many feel that our whole is becoming progressively less than the sum of our parts.

The root source of the malaise is the national government. In saying that the nation is adrift, the CEOs were really saying that Ottawa is adrift.

The sponsorship scandal has hit Canadians like a blow in the solar plexus. The worst is over, but we'll be hurting inwardly for a long time.

Here, in a modern, well-educated, international-minded, increasingly urban society, we have had, spilling out from our TV screens, the entrails of an orgy of corruption and bribery that might even have caused John A. Macdonald, famed for his 19th-century Pacific Railway scandal, to blush.

It's put into question the integrity of our public service (how come no one in Ottawa uttered a peep of protest?) and it has spattered all federalists in Quebec.

Prime Minister Paul Martin had nothing to do with it, although another scandal that's just broken ? the issuing of temporary residency permits to would-be immigrants as election bait to ethnic groups ? happened on his watch.

Despite these scandals, the Liberals are almost certain to win the next election. Which makes us a one-party state ? but a one-party state with a "Mr. Dithers" as its leader.

Few prime ministers have fallen further from higher up than has Martin, once universally admired as the Conqueror of the Deficit.

Martin doesn't lack a vision. Instead, he has about a hundred of them. So, effectively, he has none. And so neither do we.

He's only an individual. There are deeper political concerns.

Despite another $41 billion thrown at it by Ottawa by way of the provinces, the future of Canada's health-care system is in doubt. Uncertainty about whether our one-tier system can last has been magnified by the Supreme Court's ruling that private medical insurance schemes are legal unless waiting times are "reasonable" (whatever reasonable may mean).

A sideways slippage to a two-tier health-care system ? a forecast that in private many are already ready to make ? would put into question the whole complex web of interrelationships in the decentralized, diverse, regionalized, polyglot, ("post-modern" is the modish term), society that Canada has become.

One-tier health care, that is, universal service available to all regardless of salary or status, has become the tangible expression of our common citizenship.

If it goes, and if in addition Quebec has already half left, and if Alberta has more money than it can possibly spend on itself while many other Canadians have a lot less than they need, and if our native people are now self-governing (with, for instance, their own legal systems), are we all still full citizens of the same country?

And if not, should Canada more accurately now be called a commonwealth rather than a Confederation, or some form of loose political association rather than a nation-state?

A second political concern assails us at the same time. We've long seen ourselves in the way that others (we assume, and not inaccurately) see us. We are, in other words, the world's good guys.

We're still that. But our international stature is shrinking.

Our own efforts, in diplomacy, the military, trade (to any country except the U.S.) and in aid, have all been dwindling.

We're scrambling now to catch up to where we once were. But the going has got much tougher in the meantime.

Other nations, most obviously China and India, are moving to the front and centre of the international stage, and so are crowding us out. Even tiny Nepal and impoverished Bangladesh now contribute more to United Nations peacekeeping than we do.

Our international diminution is probably just a part of the life cycle among nations. But we've invested far more of our self-esteem than is usual in our ability to play an important part in making the world a better place, and of being seen (by ourselves and others) to be doing this. So we'll be harder on ourselves if we do go down, even if only relatively so.

Projecting as far ahead as 2020 is ultimately a mug's game. The unexpected has to be expected. Events over which we have no control may blow us along faster, or may blow in our face.

Our strengths ? a good many of them, like almost the complete security we enjoy, are a gift from God or nature (and from geography) ? haven't altered. We really have made ourselves a miniature of the entire world in a way for which there are few, if any, historic precedents. Anyone who can do this can do a great deal else.

But the pessimism and the malaise are also real. We do need a vision. And we do need a leader. We now have neither.

Once we have both, we'll be able to race back to the head of the pack. But of course, being Canadians, we wouldn't do it in a triumphalist way.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4359729 - 07/01/05 03:37 PM (15 years, 9 days ago)

The guy kept saying things like "The national mood just seems to be confused, cynical and crabby"...however this flies right in the face of the day to day experience of actual Canadians.

I don't know anyone in Canada who feels "confused, cynical and crabby" about their country. There doesn't even seem to be any media attention about this supposed "national mood", aside from this guy's article.

This reads like an article about Canada's future as written from an American's philosophy. I expect that most Canadians you talk to won't talk about any grand vision for the country's future. We don't have high-hopes of leading the world anywhere, nor do we feel the need to have a great national importance in the world.

We're just Canadian, you know?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4359852 - 07/01/05 04:07 PM (15 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:


This reads like an article about Canada's future as written from an American's philosophy. I expect that most Canadians you talk to won't talk about any grand vision for the country's future. We don't have high-hopes of leading the world anywhere, nor do we feel the need to have a great national importance in the world.



That's the exact impression I got, if by American philosophy you mean Fascist philosophy. This guy writes like a modern day Mussolini.

Therefore, for the Fascist, everything is in the State, and nothing human or
spiritual exists, much less has value,-outside the State.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineRiverMan
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4360067 - 07/01/05 04:51 PM (15 years, 9 days ago)

As a Canadian, I don't quite identify myself or my country in this article. As others have just said, why should we need a "bigger vision" or a specific role to achieve in 15 years? What would be the purpose of such a thing if we just want to progress as a society as we have done in the past?

And if the words role/vision mean invade another country, then I want no part of it!


--------------------
A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: RiverMan]
    #4360107 - 07/01/05 04:59 PM (15 years, 9 days ago)

Exactly! If Canada is to "lead" the world anywhere, we will do it only by example...never by force!

I would say that to remain low-key is a part of what it is to be Canadian.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4360177 - 07/01/05 05:16 PM (15 years, 9 days ago)

Canada Unveils Plan to Bolster Influence Internationally

By Doug Struck
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, April 20, 2005; Page A17

TORONTO, April 19 -- Canada's government said Tuesday it would beef up its military, bolster its diplomatic corps and overhaul its foreign aid in a bid to reverse the country's diminishing influence in global affairs.

"Our international presence has suffered," Prime Minister Paul Martin said in releasing a long-promised foreign policy review. "Now is the time to rebuild."

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The proposals were promptly attacked as too limited and too vague by Martin's opponents, who questioned why the plan was abruptly announced just as speculation about a possible election was sweeping Ottawa.

"This is not the dynamic action plan we had hoped to see," said Belinda Stronach, a member of the opposition Conservative Party in Parliament. "There is virtually nothing new here."

Martin's ruling Liberal Party has been stunned by plummeting public approval following an influence-peddling scandal involving Martin's predecessor, Jean Chretien. A Conservative Party legislator, Stockwell Day, said at a news conference in Ottawa on Tuesday that there "seemed to be a rush" to announce the foreign policy review to counteract the drop in the polls.

Martin said the plan fulfilled a campaign pledge to "redefine Canada's role in the world" in response to periodic hand-wringing over the country's perceived loss of status as a military and political power.

"You cannot have a robust foreign policy if all you're prepared to engage in is empty moralizing," Martin said.

The review proposes changes in the military that include instituting a central command, increasing the size of the 62,000-member active-duty military by 5,000, boosting the special operations forces, adding equipment, including helicopters and ships, and creating an emergency response team capable of dealing with disasters anywhere.

The plan, together with a five-year, $10 billion budget increase for the military proposed by Martin, "takes us to where we need to go," Defense Minister Bill Graham said Tuesday.

"I can't imagine they will be able to finance it," Conservative legislator Gordon O'Connor said.

The plan also calls for doubling foreign aid in five years but recommends paring the number of countries receiving it from 155 to 25. The shorter list of countries, mostly in Africa, would receive two-thirds of Canada's foreign aid by 2010 under the plan.

"We're not abandoning anybody," the minister of international cooperation, Aileen Carroll, told reporters. By "targeting" aid, Canada will concentrate on areas where it can be a main donor and "not the 15th donor in that country," she said.

The plan also urges strengthening the United Nations, increasing ties with the "new global powers" China, India and Brazil, and diversifying trade links with countries other than the United States, which now buys about 80 percent of Canada's exports.

Martin continued the tradition of walking a tightrope in relations with the United States. Canada would remain a supporter of NATO and "the great Western alliance," the prime minister said Monday, but it would not "be out there as the handmaiden of any country."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2431-2005Apr19.html



You're going to beef up your military?....all those Americans who voted for Kerry and lost then moved north will be protesting in the streets...L.O.L.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineAnisotropic
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4360228 - 07/01/05 05:28 PM (15 years, 9 days ago)

"That whole artical was filled with so much rhetoric, because history will surely be on his side."

"That artical is mostly full of pointed anecdotal speculation, combined with hypothetical situations."

Is what I said about some other artical that you posted.

Doesn't really seem I even have to change the wording to discribe this one.

Wonder why?

Maybe if this guy wants to live in a country with more 'presence' he should move to America.


Edited by Anisotropic (07/01/05 05:30 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4360231 - 07/01/05 05:29 PM (15 years, 9 days ago)

You're going to beef up your military?

:lol:

Fat chance! The govt. has been talking about "beefing up" our military as long as I've been alive :smirk:

They can't beef up our military because not enough Canadians see a need to join the military. We're not fighting any wars, after all...whats the point in paying for a large standing army? :rolleyes:

Something that becomes very obvious about Canada, if you live here for a few years, is the disconnect between Canadian citizens and the Canadian government. They talk their talk and have their little scandals....while we go about our daily business and largely ignore what they say/do. :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4360748 - 07/01/05 08:03 PM (15 years, 9 days ago)

5 more stars on the US flag...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4361194 - 07/01/05 10:39 PM (15 years, 9 days ago)

no thanks (quebec)

maybe we can use the new supreme court ruling (eminent domain) and take Alberta and BC???


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4362555 - 07/02/05 10:35 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

So what is this, you hate Canada because its liberal, so anything that says anything even remotely bad about it, you're going to post?

These articles don't even say much of anything.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4362588 - 07/02/05 10:54 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

I can't comment on the politics or other points of these articles not living there, but I would like to give my impression of Canada and it's people. I see a vast, varied country, rich in natural and cultural resources, and populated by a diverse, industrious and intelligent people. I think Canada has more than enough potential to become a world leader in many respects, and I think her best days still lay ahead of her.


(Sorry to take this off on this tangent, folks... :laugh: )


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OfflineBCBudJohn
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4364618 - 07/02/05 11:56 PM (15 years, 8 days ago)

I agree that this article sounds more like someone trying to spark a conservative uprising than someone giving an accurate description of the "canadian mood".

Every canadian here went out july 1st, and probably had a BBQ, beer, watched some fireworks and felt so fucking proud to be apart of this country.

I think the national mood is pessimistic, but more people express resignation than confusion and cynicism. No one takes our multi-cultural heritage and tolerance of cultural identity (complete with their own laws and governing bodies)as lack of national direction and a slippery slope that will end in our annexation. More to the point, most canadians (and i mean, almost everybody) has their roots somewhere other than canada. Everybody can relate to the NEED for a cultural mosaic.

I agree, canada will be a leader, but we won't be the leader this articles purports to be the only way to attain world leadership. We will lead in a similar way to the restructuring of aid to africa (reduce the countries to 25, so we can be influential in a small way)

The fact is, we're only 30 million, our footprint is small, but a real leader is someone who follows their principle even when stacked up against bigger, pushier, more intimidating circumstances. This report doesn't address canada's reputation in the countries themselves, only of the governments and leading elites. After travelling to europe, mexico and central america, i know canada is respected.


--------------------
Peace
John


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4366080 - 07/03/05 12:20 PM (15 years, 7 days ago)

Lonestar, what is your problem with Canada?

Anytime someone mentions Canada you have something negative to say about our northern neighbors.

What have they done to piss you off?

Canada, IMO, is a far better country than the US.

They have taken the American ideas of freedom and liberty for all, and done a much better job of implementing, it than we have.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: niteowl]
    #4366140 - 07/03/05 12:45 PM (15 years, 7 days ago)

As a Canadian citizen who chose to leave Canada after being born and raised there and living and working there for three and a half decades, I could probably give you a few reasons why Americans would have something negative to say about Canada.

-- They are the only country in the world other than North Korea and Cuba with a single tier socialized medicine program. To make things worse, the system is so hopelessly broken that Canadians die on a regular basis waiting for treatment they could receive in a matter of days in the US. There are more MRI machines in the city of Philadelphia than there are in all of Canada. That's why it's not uncommon to wait six months or more for an MRI scan.

-- The Liberal federal government is hopelessly corrupt and has been for decades.

-- the level of taxation is confiscatory.

-- Quebec holds the rest of the country hostage while billions of dollars are pissed away on bilingual initiatives that don't work and aren't needed.

-- The mountain of government regulations (not even mentioning the level of taxation now -- although that too is an enormous barrier -- just speaking of petty and absurd regulations) makes it twice (perhaps more) as hard to run a business than in the US.

-- Canadians as a whole (and yes I realize this doesn't apply to every single Canadian) have grown so accustomed to seeing Government as the answer to all of life's problems that they expect to be cosseted and supported from cradle to grave with the minimum of effort on their part. They expect to be protected even from those things they deem "offensive".

-- The Canadian military is a joke and has been for decades.

That'll do for starters.

As for "freedom and liberty for all", only someone who has never lived in Canada could claim Canada has done a much better job of implementing it than the US. Or someone who has no grasp of the meaning of either freedom or liberty.


Phred


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OfflineBCBudJohn
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4368104 - 07/04/05 02:37 AM (15 years, 6 days ago)

So true.


--------------------
Peace
John


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OfflineRiverMan
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4369731 - 07/04/05 05:12 PM (15 years, 6 days ago)

Well Phred, I have to disagree with most of the "points" (I'd call them interpretations of the facts you hold) you just made :

"They are the only country in the world other than North Korea and Cuba with a single tier socialized medicine program. To make things worse, the system is so hopelessly broken that Canadians die on a regular basis waiting for treatment they could receive in a matter of days in the US. There are more MRI machines in the city of Philadelphia than there are in all of Canada. That's why it's not uncommon to wait six months or more for an MRI scan. "
Well, you may have a point there, as I agree our healthcare system has its faults (lots of them actually lol...but I wouldn't call it "hopelessly broken", I've been to hospitals and I got treated EVERY time! Yes!) But it simply makes me sick that while people here are looking for solutions to improve healthcare for all Canadians others brag about how weel funded U.S. hospitals are. Well, Phred, the answer is simple for Canadians : we wouldn't like to live in a country knowing some people have more rights to a better treatment (and ultimately life) than others and that this right is proportional to your income. This is simply how NOT to build a society. (by the way I would suggest you to read more about Cuba's healthcare system as I believe it should serve as an example for the world. Just try to see how they do it, even with an embargo going on for 40 years...)

"The Liberal federal government is hopelessly corrupt and has been for decades."
I'd immediately ask for facts and proofs of such a hopelessly corrupt system, but hey, probably the only news of Canada you recieve is about the sponsorship program, so I won't bother mentionning the ethical transparency our government (especially Quebec) has shown over the years. (what's that? no independent 9/11 commission for you in the U.S.? Wow...I'd be really pissed!)

"The level of taxation is confiscatory."
Well, I must guess this is the main reason why you moved down South, but now that you're gone don't complain about the democratic choices our country has made election over election in recent years. You don't have anything to say about it anymore and if people find the taxation level so "confiscatory" they should also be moving away... they are free to do so.

"Quebec holds the rest of the country hostage while billions of dollars are pissed away on bilingual initiatives that don't work and aren't needed."
I could get in quite an argument with you over this (as i live in Quebec and am French-speaking) but I must agree the province of Quebec shouldn't be allowed more money than other provinces inside the federation. Unfortunately, the problem goes much deeper than money and your statement clearly demonstrates you do not quite know the situation here. We'll talk about it once you go shopping at the local mall and a salesman/saleswoman refuses to speak to you in the official language... Otherwise just keep on reading about Quebec's history in the past 250 years.

" The mountain of government regulations (not even mentioning the level of taxation now -- although that too is an enormous barrier -- just speaking of petty and absurd regulations) makes it twice (perhaps more) as hard to run a business than in the US. "
I guess your conclusion that a business here is twice as hard (...or perhaps more!!! MY GOD!) to run as in the U.S is the result of a very scientific process which calculates the average daily amout of calories a CEO has to ingest in order not to file bankrupcy...

"The Canadian military is a joke and has been for decades."
Well, I agree that it's kind of a joke from a U.S. perspective but I would ask you to tell me why we should need better military protection ? As opposed to the U.S., we just haven't deemed necessary, in our own interest, to install dictatorships and support right-wing extremist states all over the world this past century...

"As for "freedom and liberty for all", only someone who has never lived in Canada could claim Canada has done a much better job of implementing it than the US. Or someone who has no grasp of the meaning of either freedom or liberty."
As for your beautiful and thoughtful conclusion, I should add that freedom must have many different interpretations because I don't think Canada has ever invaded another country for trivial reasons (aka OIL, most recently) and killed innocent bystanders while doing so. I my book, if you wanna live freedom and liberty, not just for yourself but for all, you gotta NOT kill people while doing so.

Here's the other side of it.


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OfflineBCBudJohn
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: RiverMan]
    #4370152 - 07/04/05 08:29 PM (15 years, 6 days ago)

I believe that Quebecers have every right to speak their language in their country wherever they go in canada (even out west here, where we're closer to mexico than quebec) as i have a right to speak english if i choose to go to quebec or any other pre-dominantly french area (southern manitoba for example).
We are stronger for it as a nation. I know alot of people out west are, frankly, pissed about this idea. But we all need to respect our roots.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: RiverMan]
    #4370424 - 07/04/05 11:20 PM (15 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

"They are the only country in the world other than North Korea and Cuba with a single tier socialized medicine program. To make things worse, the system is so hopelessly broken that Canadians die on a regular basis waiting for treatment they could receive in a matter of days in the US. There are more MRI machines in the city of Philadelphia than there are in all of Canada. That's why it's not uncommon to wait six months or more for an MRI scan. "

Well, you may have a point there, as I agree our healthcare system has its faults (lots of them actually lol...but I wouldn't call it "hopelessly broken", I've been to hospitals and I got treated EVERY time! Yes!) But it simply makes me sick that while people here are looking for solutions to improve healthcare for all Canadians others brag about how weel funded U.S. hospitals are.




The solution is to break the stranglehold the Canadian government has on it, duh! If people want to pay for it out of their own pockets (or have their insurance company pay for it), let them!

As it happens, every time I've been to a hospital I got treated, too. I did however have to wait for three and a half months to get a CAT scan to be sure I didn't have a brain tumor. And I never did get the followup MRI scan. I decided not to wait the year and a bit my neurologist told me it would take to schedule it. Good thing it turned out not to be a tumor, huh?

My mother's neighbor waited over fourteen months for her first knee replacement. She's in the hospital recovering from her second knee replacement as I type this. Waiting time for the second one? Two years, three weeks. And her case is not unusual, it's the norm. Here's just one of a hundred links I could provide to similar data:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/3/21/101350.shtml

I've posted in this forum at least a half a dozen times giving more details. Look them up if you feel like it.

Quote:

Well, Phred, the answer is simple for Canadians : we wouldn't like to live in a country knowing some people have more rights to a better treatment (and ultimately life) than others and that this right is proportional to your income.




Yet another reason I could have listed but chose not to. Since you brought it up I'll address it.

Canadians as a whole (and yes I realize this cannot be said of every single Canadian) are an envious bunch. They can't bear to think that anyone might have anything more than they do, no matter how hard that person worked to get it. But rather than make it easier for everyone to get more, they have decided it's better to make sure no one can get anything. They've certainly succeeded with the health "care" system.

Quote:

This is simply how NOT to build a society.




It certainly isn't the way to build a Socialist Nanny State society, I'll give you that.

Quote:

(by the way I would suggest you to read more about Cuba's healthcare system as I believe it should serve as an example for the world.




I guarantee you I know more about Cuba's health care woes than you do, seeing as how I live right next door to Cuba, have Cuban expatriates as personal friends, have had long discussions with many people living here (Dominican Republic) who spend considerable time in Cuba every year, and I have read widely on the subject to boot.

Cuba's medical situation is a freaking nightmare. It's worse than Canada's. At least in Canada the facilities are actually stocked; the problem in Canada is the interminable wait. Once you are finally scheduled to be looked after in Canada the operating rooms have the drugs and machines and staff do actually do something. This is far from the case in Cuba. They have almost no equipment, almost no drugs, and often not even enough pine-sol to keep the place clean.

Here's just one link to open your eyes. If you are truly interested in learning more about it, do a bit of digging. It's all out there for anyone who isn't Noam Chomsky to see: http://www.babalublog.com/archives/001470.html

So sorry, but if you think Cuba's health care system "should serve as an example for the world" there's no point taking this further till you educate yourself on just how abominable it really is.

Quote:

Just try to see how they do it, even with an embargo going on for 40 years...




"Embargo"? Cuba can (and does) trade with every Western nation except the USA. Canada, for example, trades extensively with Cuba. Of course, Canada isn't the place to go looking for help with anything medical, but that leaves every country in Europe, Asia, Africa, and South America free to take up the slack.

Quote:

"The Liberal federal government is hopelessly corrupt and has been for decades."

I'd immediately ask for facts and proofs of such a hopelessly corrupt system, but hey, probably the only news of Canada you recieve is about the sponsorship program, so I won't bother mentionning the ethical transparency our government (especially Quebec) has shown over the years. (what's that? no independent 9/11 commission for you in the U.S.? Wow...I'd be really pissed!)




Jesus Christ on a crutch! You claim you're a Quebecer? It would take pages to list all the scandals of the Chretien government, let alone the Quebec provincial government.

"Ethical transparency"? Bwahahaha! Yeah... all these latest revelations are hitting the sunlight because of "transparency" all right.

The Liberal government has been scandal-ridden since before I left Canada over seventeen years ago. And even though I'm now a resident of the Dominican Republic, I still spend an average of six to eight weeks a year in Canada visiting friends and family. When I'm there I read Canadian papers and watch Canadian news programs.

Quote:

"The level of taxation is confiscatory."

Well, I must guess this is the main reason why you moved down South, but now that you're gone don't complain about the democratic choices our country has made election over election in recent years. You don't have anything to say about it anymore and if people find the taxation level so "confiscatory" they should also be moving away... they are free to do so.




So you concede my point.

Quote:

"Quebec holds the rest of the country hostage while billions of dollars are pissed away on bilingual initiatives that don't work and aren't needed."

I could get in quite an argument with you over this (as i live in Quebec and am French-speaking) but I must agree the province of Quebec shouldn't be allowed more money than other provinces inside the federation. Unfortunately, the problem goes much deeper than money and your statement clearly demonstrates you do not quite know the situation here. We'll talk about it once you go shopping at the local mall and a salesman/saleswoman refuses to speak to you in the official language... Otherwise just keep on reading about Quebec's history in the past 250 years.




Dude, if I can't understand what a sales clerk is saying to me, I'll shop elsewhere. Of course, as a longtime resident of Ottawa and a frequent visitor to Hull, Aylmer, Gatineau, and Montreal, I've run into the situation of having salesclerks refuse to speak to me in English countless times. Hell, it's happened to me in border towns on the Ontario side of the river as well, and a couple of times even in Vanier (a Francophone section of Ottawa). No sweat off my nose.

Quote:

" The mountain of government regulations (not even mentioning the level of taxation now -- although that too is an enormous barrier -- just speaking of petty and absurd regulations) makes it twice (perhaps more) as hard to run a business than in the US. "

I guess your conclusion that a business here is twice as hard (...or perhaps more!!! MY GOD!) to run as in the U.S is the result of a very scientific process which calculates the average daily amout of calories a CEO has to ingest in order not to file bankrupcy...




No, it comes from running a business in Canada (not my own... I was district sales manager for a large computer reseller right before I left Canada) and talking with dozens of others who try to run their own. It's clear you yourself have no experience running a business in Canada.

Quote:

"The Canadian military is a joke and has been for decades."

Well, I agree that it's kind of a joke from a U.S. perspective but I would ask you to tell me why we should need better military protection ? As opposed to the U.S., we just haven't deemed necessary, in our own interest, to install dictatorships and support right-wing extremist states all over the world this past century...




It's a joke from the perspective of Canadian military men and women as well. My father was in the Canadian military all his life and I grew up on a succession of Canadian military bases. I have friends from childhood who are currently in the military. Canada has fifty year old helicopters crashing on a regular basis (in the few hours each month they have been patched up enough to fly at all) and the Canadian troops in Afghanistan were sent there with no boots.

Quote:

"As for "freedom and liberty for all", only someone who has never lived in Canada could claim Canada has done a much better job of implementing it than the US. Or someone who has no grasp of the meaning of either freedom or liberty."

As for your beautiful and thoughtful conclusion, I should add that freedom must have many different interpretations because I don't think Canada has ever invaded another country for trivial reasons (aka OIL, most recently) and killed innocent bystanders while doing so.




There were no Canadians in the Gulf War of 1991? You might want to check your facts, dude. There are no Canadians in Afghanistan? Repeat after me... "Google is my friend".

Phred


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OfflineBCBudJohn
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4370570 - 07/05/05 12:23 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Canadas public health-care system is still very young, of course it will be shaky to start. Taxation is a necessary part of a socialist system. By its very nature, there is more government to pay for, which is what canadians have chosen.

Name one scandal and corruption-free government on earth. The scandals the canadian government has undertaken are generally speaking less reprehensible and less dramatic than our neighbours. IMO.

Canadas military is a joke, largely because of underfunding, but this can be attributed to national interest. (not coercion of dogma and ideology). If you see how canadians responded in world war I and world war II, you would see an important aspect of canadas military is to defend itself from imminent and legitimate threats.

Yes, canada is well-know for its ridiculous beaurocracy.

One promising note is that the quality of life of canadians is one of the highest rated in the UN, in fact i believe it was #1 for a few years. Universal healthcare plays a large role.

Unfortunately, an un-moderated capitalist system leaves people behind, and takes away oppurtunity for those who are not already rich. Rich get richer, poor get poorer.
( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35175-2004Aug26.html )


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: BCBudJohn]
    #4370784 - 07/05/05 01:41 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

I'm chilling in Vancouver right now. It seems cool here. Lots of cute
Asian chicks are here. I might consider moving to Ole Canada for that reason alone.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4370879 - 07/05/05 02:11 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:

There were no Canadians in the Gulf War of 1991? You might want to check your facts, dude. There are no Canadians in Afghanistan? Repeat after me... "Google is my friend".

Phred





And let us not forget how Canadians fought so valiantly along side the US in WWII (and other major conflicts as well). They were a major military presence in all the major campaigns with the US against the Germans, including the D-Day invasion....


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4370917 - 07/05/05 02:24 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

ToiletDuk writes:

Quote:

And let us not forget how Canadians fought so valiantly along side the US in WWII (and other major conflicts as well). They were a major military presence in all the major campaigns with the US against the Germans, including the D-Day invasion....




Indeed. There was a time when Canada's military was no joke. That doesn't alter the fact that it is today and has been for decades.



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: BCBudJohn]
    #4370966 - 07/05/05 02:44 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

BCBudJohn writes:

Quote:

Canadas public health-care system is still very young, of course it will be shaky to start.




Four decades is "young"? If you say so, Gramps.

Quote:

Taxation is a necessary part of a socialist system. By its very nature, there is more government to pay for, which is what canadians have chosen.




Yet another reason to denigrate Canada (and by extension, Canadians). Canada is (with the exception of Cuba) the most Socialist-oriented country in the Western hemisphere since the Sandinistas were voted out of power. Hell, even the Nicaraguans reject Socialism. Canadians embrace it.

Quote:

The scandals the canadian government has undertaken are generally speaking less reprehensible and less dramatic than our neighbours. IMO.




In the sense that it's only Canadians getting screwed, perhaps. What I find reprehensible is that Canadians would prefer to re-elect and re-elect a party known by all to be corrupt to its core rather than risk having to actually do something for themselves. Give up a shred of Nanny State cradle-to-grave mollycoddling -- which they don't even get anyway (see Canadian Medicare)? Perish the thought!

Quote:

If you see how canadians responded in world war I and world war II, you would see an important aspect of canadas military is to defend itself from imminent and legitimate threats.




Defend itself? Get real. Hitler posed no threat whatsoever to Canada, either imminent or legitimate, nor did the Kaiser. But Canadian bomber pilots incinerated thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of defenseless German civilians.

Quote:

Unfortunately, an un-moderated capitalist system leaves people behind, and takes away oppurtunity for those who are not already rich. Rich get richer, poor get poorer.




That myth is a topic for a different thread (although there are only about a hundred and eighty such threads scattered through the archives of this forum already), but any perceived evils of Capitalism are certainly no danger to Canadians.



Phred


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OfflineBCBudJohn
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4371141 - 07/05/05 03:45 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Four decades is "young"? If you say so, Gramps.




You said yourself the world lacks precedence for socialist based health-care systems. It will take trial and error to work out the best-value for money, universal healthcare system. Canadians have expressed a national interest in this, so it will be explored in time. I'm sure you heard of the courts decision in quebec to allow private clinics while the government twiddles its thumbs. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the system is perfect, i do however believe the idea of universal healthcare is one worth working towards (and yes this will entail long wait lists at times, but its better than just being out of luck if it were completely privatised with no insurance)

Yet another reason to denigrate Canada (and by extension, Canadians). Canada is (with the exception of Cuba) the most Socialist-oriented country in the Western hemisphere since the Sandinistas were voted out of power. Hell, even the Nicaraguans reject Socialism. Canadians embrace it.

I don't mind paying high taxes to help out my fellow man.

Quote:

In the sense that it's only Canadians getting screwed, perhaps. What I find reprehensible is that Canadians would prefer to re-elect and re-elect a party known by all to be corrupt to its core rather than risk having to actually do something for themselves.




And vote for whom, one of the other .. two choices? If you're not for sticking our nose up the americans asses and electing that blubbering idiot harper (who can show no merit for his party other than by contrast to the liberals) or the NDP who would waste away the economy on principles as they have demonstrated when elected provincially in BC, you take into account what the corrupt liberal government has wasted my money on, and what they've actually accomplished and the choice is obvious for me.

Theres even less choice in the US. Demo-crap and re-poop system.

Give up a shred of Nanny State cradle-to-grave mollycoddling -- which they don't even get anyway (see Canadian Medicare)? Perish the thought!

The idea is quality of life, equality for all in the name of freedom. A noble pursuit in my opinion. I wasn't put on earth to push my way through life helping myself along, while forgetting the rest. Why is the idea of universal care so intimidating? Its like having a huge extended family, everyone benefits in the end, and if you aren't willing to take a few hits for the team, you don't deserve to be on it. (now its the REAL hippy liberal BS, eh?) Universal care doesn't negate meritocracy. Ensuring poverty for many, abundance for few does.

Quote:

Defend itself? Get real. Hitler posed no threat whatsoever to Canada, either imminent or legitimate, nor did the Kaiser. But Canadian bomber pilots incinerated thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of defenseless German civilians.




I was proving our ability to mobilize to action on that which we feel strongly about. If we cared about having a big ass military, and we may one day, i'm sure we will move towards it. Thats what freedom is for.


--------------------
Peace
John


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4371444 - 07/05/05 08:24 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

I still don't understand why so many here are quick to bash Canada. I can't count how many times I've seen this debate in the year-and-a-half I've been here. I've yet to see one (one!) current Canadian wander into PA&L and say that they are opposed to Canadian culture or the Canadian brand of socialism. And the Shroomery is not at a loss for canucks. They are obviously relatively happy with how their country generally manages itself. That doesn't mean it's good or bad or right or wrong or preferrable. It just means that, so far, it works for them. It obviously would not work in America. So fine, discuss it, debate it, say what you like. I just don't understand the knee jerk revulsion people show to our northern neighbors.

As for the 2020 thing, 15 years is not long. Candians will still have long lines at the hospital. Americans will still have global dominance and all the nasty things that go along with it. People will still be here making the same threads.


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OfflineRiverMan
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Gijith]
    #4371752 - 07/05/05 11:37 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

I just don't see why people (usually Americans, probably because they are more in number on these boards, I guess) simply go ahead and bash any socialist state, turning every single point we make to justify ourselves to ridicule. And I thought McCarthism was gone for good! I guess not everyone is open-minded enough to simply try and understand the basic principles of socialism, or communism for that matter. Heck, its not because certain POLITICAL doctrines have been turned to bloodshed in the past that they were meant so. If so, then capitalism would be amongst the most gruesome political doctrines still in place today.

As I see it, the people who machinely bash socialism/communism people are cold-hearted capitalists who don't give a shit about others and will only think of others when it becomes profitable in terms of money.

This may only be my opinion, but the fact of the matter is you can continue to ridicule us all you want, we've succeederd in building a better society for all Canadians over the years once we made the decision to run a social democracy. All the comparisons you make with the US about healthcare, businesses, taxation, etc. are only those you know of. They are what you see in your little upper-class world. Just venture in the lower corners of America and then come and tell me you've achieved what you speak of for ALL americans, that you've not left behind anyone. You'll then perhaps aknowledge America works in 2 different worlds : the world in which people get what they need because they can afford it and the others who have to struggle everyday to meet their basic needs.

In the minds of Canadians, this is what differentiates us from you. And if America is such a perfect world to you, then why is Canada ahead of the US in terms of quality of life ? (United Nations Development Programme - Human Development Report 2002, 2003, 2004 web: http://www.undp.org) I usually don't like such listings but I noticed some of you needed to see "sources" or whatever.... It's on the web anyway!

To come back to Phred's posts, well I still have some things to address :

"Canadians as a whole (and yes I realize this cannot be said of every single Canadian) are an envious bunch..."
Well, let's just end the charade and call you God right away! Who are you to judge the caracters of 30 million people? Maybe you met a couple of envious people up North in all those years, but it doesn't give you the right to generalize your experience to a whole nation. Believe me, I've met some stupid, fat, poorly educated, etc. people in the US and I won't go and state that I believe that most americans are also like that. That would be just plain dumb.


"They can't bear to think that anyone might have anything more than they do, no matter how hard that person worked to get it. But rather than make it easier for everyone to get more, they have decided it's better to make sure no one can get anything"
Well, the way I see it we just let everyone get the same no matter if they are rich or poor. That may create some problems, but I believe they can be fixed. Not everything is "hopeless", as you might think. And if you are used to higher standards of medecine than that of Canada, then good for you. But pray to God you don't go bankrupt because I can tell you you'll be remembering the good old days when you got free and decent treatment up North...

"Indeed. There was a time when Canada's military was no joke. That doesn't alter the fact that it is today and has been for decades."
I wouldn't call a conscripted army a "no-joke" army if you ask me. I'd call it more of a sacrifice. Not a very useful one I might add.

"Dude, if I can't understand what a sales clerk is saying to me, I'll shop elsewhere. Of course, as a longtime resident of Ottawa and a frequent visitor to Hull, Aylmer, Gatineau, and Montreal, I've run into the situation of having salesclerks refuse to speak to me in English countless times. Hell, it's happened to me in border towns on the Ontario side of the river as well, and a couple of times even in Vanier (a Francophone section of Ottawa). No sweat off my nose. "
The point is Quebec is a French-speaking state. Its official language is in fact French. As a Quebec resident, the "Charte de la langue francaise" tells me that : "Le droit des consommateurs d'?tre inform?s et servis en fran?ais." (Titre I, art. 4) This means when I go shopping near home I have the right to be served in French. Unfortunately for you, English is legally the second language in Quebec. The only place in the province where YOU would be served in English ALL the time would be in a federal-regulated institution. (since the federal gov.'s position is that Canada is a bilingual country...my ass! They should open their eyes and see that lots of people outside of Quebec don't care about learning French and that lots of peope in Quebec don't care about English either...) And it would also be in such institutions that I would be guaranteed to be spoken to in French if I traveled in the other provinces.

"Hell, even the Nicaraguans reject Socialism. Canadians embrace it. "
Well, I'd like to tell you a little story about a man named ROnald Reagan and his buddies, the Contras... Or maybe the millions and millions poured into right-wing parties in the Eighties. So, officially (and once again), Americans reject Socialism. Leave them poor Nicaraguans out of this for God's sake!


Anyways, this exchange of thoughts could last for years the way I see it... so I'll just leave you alone at your justifications for now.
At least try to remember you're a mere human, just like all of us, and what most of what you think is right comes from beliefs, and not thoughts. Arguing over beliefs is just pointless, as I could condition myself to believe I hold the truth.


--------------------
A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: niteowl]
    #4371774 - 07/05/05 11:46 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

niteowl said: What have they done to piss you off?


Their missile defense decision pissed me off.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: RiverMan]
    #4371868 - 07/05/05 12:26 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Socialism is not the answer, but it's stupid and hypocritical to bash Canada's socialized medicine without noting the advantages it has over our own corporatized medicine. In terms of bringing keeping the majority of the population healthy, Canada's system has us beat. But I would venture to say it's because we don't have a free market in medicine. What we have instead is a government-protected oligopoly of pharmaceutical companies and a wide array of harmful regulations which cause inflate the price of medicine and medical insurance. To hold up America's health care system as the ideal, or even as largely preferable to the Canadian system, is to show an unwillingness to fully investigate the problem.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4371878 - 07/05/05 12:30 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

That myth is a topic for a different thread (although there are only about a hundred and eighty such threads scattered through the archives of this forum already), but any perceived evils of Capitalism are certainly no danger to Canadians

The same can be said about America. "Any perceived evils of Canada's Socialism are certainly no danger to America"

If you don't like their government don't live there.

Bashing their government only makes you look childish and immature :shrug:


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: niteowl]
    #4372421 - 07/05/05 03:58 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Niteowl writes:

Quote:

If you don't like their government don't live there.




I don't like their government, so I no longer live there. I've lived outside Canada for the last third of my life.

Quote:

Bashing their government only makes you look childish and immature.




LOL! But bashing the US government is a sign of maturity and superior intelligence. Uh huh.

I have more right to bash the government of Canada than any Canadian poster I have yet met in this forum by the simple fact that I lived longer in Canada than any of them have so far. I can guarantee you I had more money seized from me by the Canadian government than any two of them (perhaps three) put together.

It never ceases to amuse me watching people who have never lived in the US (Canadians and Europeans) bashing it mindlessly while getting their facts wrong. And how odd that the American posters here who choose to bash their government are never told they are being childish and immature. Yet someone who was born and raised and educated and worked in Canada for three and a half decades, who has lived in seven out of the ten provinces (and spent at least some time in the other three) and all three northern territories, who has worked at everything from setting pins in a bowling alley to selling clothes and cars and stereo and computers to assembling electronics to sorting mail by hand (and served as a union steward to boot) in Canada is told he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Every point I made about Canada is true. When the Canadian posters in this forum eventually get jobs they'll change their tunes about how wonderful it is. Or when they spend more than a year on crutches waiting for arthroscopic surgery, whichever comes first.


Phred


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4372433 - 07/05/05 04:06 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

So let's review. In my opening post I said that:

-- Canada's single-tier health "care" system is fucked. No one has shown otherwise.

-- The ruling Liberal Party is corrupt and has been for decades. No one has disputed this.

-- The level of taxation is confiscatory. Again, no one disputes this, they just say they love high taxes and suggest those who don't should leave.

-- Government regulations hinder business owners to a much greater degree than in the US. No one disputes this either (probably because no one who responded knows anything about business)

-- Canadians are addicted to their Nanny State. Yet again, no one disputes this.

-- Canadian military is a joke and has been for decades. Surprise surprise, no one disputes this either, just says it doesn't bother them.

Looks like my work here is done.




Phred


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4372477 - 07/05/05 04:28 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

When the Canadian posters in this forum eventually get jobs they'll change their tunes about how wonderful it is.

Nice sweeping motion there!

What makes you think the "Canadian posters" as a group don't have jobs? What kind of logic is that?

For your information, I (for one) do have a job. I work full-time, and have worked full-time for several years now.

Working full time, and having so much of my paycheque taken from me, has not changed my "tune" about how wonderful it is to live in Canada.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't mind paying taxes for what I get. Perhaps you overlooked that statement the other times I've said it :wink:


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4372480 - 07/05/05 04:29 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

I see a lot of reasons why Canadians would be upset with our government.

Not one reason why an American would even care, nevermind dislike Canadians.
Unless it's the fact that the American Government has made the U.S. the most hated counry in the world, and Canada is liked by all. (Except SOME Americans it seems)

:laugh:

And what government of any country, isn't filled with coruption?


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4372503 - 07/05/05 04:38 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

trendal writes:

Quote:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't mind paying taxes for what I get. Perhaps you overlooked that statement the other times I've said it.




Perhaps you overlooked this statement of mine in the post to which you were replying:

"-- The level of taxation is confiscatory. Again, no one disputes this, they just say they love high taxes and suggest those who don't should leave."



Phred


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4372550 - 07/05/05 05:00 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Actually I hadn't even seen that post when I wrote my last, which is why the quote I replied to wasn't in the post you just quoted :smirk:


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4372582 - 07/05/05 05:08 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Also, please note that I have not, and will not, say anything like "I love high taxes"...because that's just plain silly.

I don't "love", or particularly like, high taxes.

I am willing to pay high taxes provided I receive benefits in return. I think I do receive benefits in return for the taxes I pay, so I am perfectly willing to continue paying them so long as the services remain.


Your assertion is equivalent to saying that someone who works long hours to get paid extra salary "loves working long hours"....when that isn't the case! They love money and are willing to work long hours to get it. :wink:


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4372891 - 07/05/05 06:45 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't mind paying taxes for what I get. Perhaps you overlooked that statement the other times I've said it :wink:



If you don't mind paying for what you get, why not allow numerous companies to offer you a service and you pay for it?  If you are so happy to pay for what you get, why not expect that of every Canadian and allow people to offer them better services?


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: SoopaX]
    #4373000 - 07/05/05 07:20 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

I don't even know what street Canada is on. -- Al Capone

http://www.goingpostal.cc/CanadianT-shirts/


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: SoopaX]
    #4373001 - 07/05/05 07:21 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

I've seen how much private health insurance costs in the US, that's one reason. Private insurance companies don't have a history of providing health care to people out of work or the poor. There is no way to ensure universal access to health care with a multi-provider competitive system.

Canadians as a whole have chosen to give their tax dollars to a public health system time and time again in elections since we adopted public health care.


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4373038 - 07/05/05 07:33 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Actually I hadn't even seen that post when I wrote my last, which is why the quote I replied to wasn't in the post you just quoted




You reply to posts you haven't yet read? That explains a lot.



Phred


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4373055 - 07/05/05 07:38 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

There is free health care in the US.


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4373060 - 07/05/05 07:40 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Phred your original points all stand with reasons that many of us have pointed out, justified or otherwise. Simply spinning those reasons with clever words like confiscatory, saying health-care is fucked (which it isn't, its simply to your disadvantage, it seems to keep the rest of the population happy), and that we're "addicted to a nanny-state," when in fact the ideal is universal care and certainly holds merit, whether you believe it is or not, the UN and much of the world recognises it is.

Simply shows bias and an unwillingness to engage in an open debate. Experience is one thing, having the single best canadian opinion, although quite an achievement (good for you!), you've simply disregarded all debate that has happened in favour of your expert opinions which together show that you can effectively spin words without giving a fair balance of knowledge, and without addressing the canadian mood.


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4373064 - 07/05/05 07:42 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Ok go look at the post you think I replied to.

Now see that scroll bar on the right-hand side of the window? Press the little arrow thingie on top of it...

...scroll up...

and read the post I replied to. Then re-read the quote of yours I used in my post, and tell me which post you wrote it in?


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4373094 - 07/05/05 07:52 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:


Canadians as a whole have chosen to give their tax dollars to a public health system time and time again in elections since we adopted public health care.



Sorry, bullshit -- the majority is NOT the whole.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4373151 - 07/05/05 08:12 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

I stand corrected.

A majority of Canadians have chosen public health care.


--------------------
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4373431 - 07/05/05 09:40 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Sigh.

Trendal, the post in which you stated:

Quote:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't mind paying taxes for what I get. Perhaps you overlooked that statement the other times I've said it.




is post #4372477. It was posted at 4:28 pm Eastern Time today. If you go to the title bar of that post, It reads "Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]"

The "[Re: Phred]" part in the post header lets the reader know which post you were replying to. When a reader clicks on the underlined "Phred" in the "[Re: Phred}" part of the header, it brings up the post you were replying to -- my post #4372433, posted at 4:06 pm Eastern Time today, in which I had stated:

Quote:

-- The level of taxation is confiscatory. Again, no one disputes this, they just say they love high taxes and suggest those who don't should leave.




Now, maybe you thought you were replying to an earlier post. But you weren't. Try it yourself and see. Hell, try it on THIS post too so you can see how it works. Click on the underlined "trendal" in the "[Re: trendal]" part of this post header. It will bring up your post to which I am replying. It works every time, and has to the best of my knowledge always worked this way.


Phred


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4373447 - 07/05/05 09:45 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

I wasn't aware that it worked that way, but it doesn't change the fact that I was replying to the first post and not the second. Which post I clicked "reply" on is merely a technicality.

If I was replying to the second post, I probably would have quoted it instead of the first post :wink:


--------------------
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4373454 - 07/05/05 09:47 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Actually, Phred, you don't have to click "Reply" for this to happen.

I usually use the quick-reply box at the bottom of the page, which is defaulted to "Last Post" :wink:

Edit: for instance this post, which was really a reply to you, shows up as a reply to my last post because I just wrote it in the quick-reply box.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


Edited by trendal (07/05/05 09:48 PM)


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4373465 - 07/05/05 09:51 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

At any rate, this is a pointless argument.


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: BCBudJohn]
    #4373555 - 07/05/05 10:18 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

BCBudJohn writes:

Quote:

Simply spinning those reasons with clever words like confiscatory, saying health-care is fucked (which it isn't, its simply to your disadvantage, it seems to keep the rest of the population happy), and that we're "addicted to a nanny-state," when in fact the ideal is universal care and certainly holds merit, whether you believe it is or not, the UN and much of the world recognises it is.




Well... that's an incomplete sentence, but I think I catch your drift.

a) There's nothing "clever" about words like confiscatory. When you pay more in taxes than you get to keep, that is by any reasonable person's definition confiscatory.

b) Any health "care" system in which people regularly die while waiting for rationed treatment, where people wait years to sign on with a new general practitioner, wait months for appointments with specialists, more months for necessary tests, more months for the results of those tests, then over a year for the necessary surgery, is fucked no matter how much you protest otherwise.

Further, none of this is news -- the government's "solution" to the problem is to run (every five years or so) yet another commission to study the problem. Every single one of those commissions has found the same problems I just described. Hell, where do you think I freaking get my figures from???? From the bloody studies, duh!

c) it is not just to my disadvantage. I don't exaggerate when I say people die (or if lucky just hobble around for years in pain on crutches or wheelchairs) due to the fucked Canadian health "care" system. It's well-documented fact. I would say those people are more disadvantaged than I was. And I doubt very much they consider themselves part of "the rest of the population" who is "happy", but hey... they're Canadian after all. Maybe they are happy watching their parents die while waiting months for an ECG. At least they get the pleasure of knowing they didn't butt in line or anything. I'm probably being arrogant and biased and stuff by presuming they weren't happy. Or maybe I don't understand "the Canadian mood".

d) even though the ideal of "universal" care could be argued by some to hold merit, Canada's system doesn't even provide that care. That's my freaking point fa cryin' out loud. As one of the Supreme Court justices in the recent landmark Quebec medicare decision stated, "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care".

Look, it's no coincidence that only three countries on the whole planet have single tier socialized medicine -- because it doesn't freaking work, duh! Does England have single tier socialized medicine? Nope. Spain? Nope. Germany? Sweden? Japan? Switzerland? France? Australia? Nope. They all allow their citizens to supplement the state-run system with private insurance. Did you ever stop to wonder why that might be? Only Cuba, North Korea, and Canada are stupid enough to stubbornly cling to a thoroughly-discredited health care model.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Single-tier socialized medicine by its very nature cannot be anything other than fucked. The entire rest of the planet recognizes this. Even the freaking UN.

Quote:

Simply shows bias and an unwillingness to engage in an open debate.




Projection.

What you are saying is that since after reading your "rebuttals" (and as I point out none of the statements I made in my first post have been rebutted) my opinion remains the same, I am "biased".

What is this crap about "open debate"? What have you "debated"? You (or others) have presented no alternatives, no reasoned argument to make me reconsider my positions. All you (or others in this thread) have done is to say that you don't mind having over half your money seized, that you don't mind waiting a year or more for surgery, that Canada used to have a non-joke army on D-Day, that there are scandals in other governments, and that you think Socialism is great and Capitalism sucks.

Give me a convincing argument that any of my points in my first post in this thread is incorrect and I'll alter my position. It won't be the first time in my life I reversed a previously-held stance. But for Christ's sake, give me something with some substance -- not this lame "it could be worse" crap.

Quote:

Experience is one thing, having the single best canadian opinion, although quite an achievement (good for you!), you've simply disregarded all debate that has happened in favour of your expert opinions which together show that you can effectively spin words without giving a fair balance of knowledge, and without addressing the canadian mood.




Okay... so since I have lived longer in Canada than anyone else participating in this thread, had more money seized from me than anyone else, held a critical , demanding, and responsible management position in a very large Canadian business, am articulate, am well-informed on the subject matter under discussion, present my points logically and with supporting sources, I am "spinning words"? I am "biased" and "unwilling to engage in open debate"?

What grinds your gears, John, is that you haven't the ability to refute anything I've said. You have made up your mind -- on no foundation other than that you "feel" I must be wrong because everything I have presented goes against your comfortable preconceptions -- that I am wrong and you are right. I ask again -- have you or anyone else here shown any of my assertions to be faulty? Nope. Yet *I* am the one to be chastised for not caving to your position?

Whatever, dude.



Phred


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4375208 - 07/06/05 11:38 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Dude, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the points that your making.

What people are tired of hearing is, you and lonestar, pissing and moaning about Canada.

GET OVER IT ALREADY!

We get, that you don't like the Canadian government.
Good for you.
You have the option of NOT living there.
Problem solved.

I personally could care less about how the Canadians govern themselves.
It makes NO difference in how I live my life.

If the Canadians are paying high taxes, that they voted for.......why are you bitching.

If you truly want to change the Canadian government.
Move back to Canada and start your own Capitalistic campaign.

To constantly piss and moan about a government that your no longer part of......
makes you look immature......not intelligent.

Its starting to sound like, you liked living in Canada but didnt like having to pay the high taxes.


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: niteowl]
    #4375241 - 07/06/05 11:59 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

niteowl said:

"I personally could care less about how the Canadians govern themselves.
It makes NO difference in how I live my life."



I care, and it does make a difference in my life.

for example: 50 Terror Groups Believed to Be in Canada

http://www.freerepublic.com/^http://news...terror_groups_1

The USA and Canada are neighbors with a large UN-patrolled border.


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4375279 - 07/06/05 12:19 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Do you honestly think that there are NO terrorist here in America :rolleyes:

I would be FAR more worried about our southern border than our northern one. It IS patrolled, and people are FLOODING across that border.

A Saudi will pass as a Mexican quicker than he would a Canadian

Besides, how is bashing their health care system, going to stop some terrorist from entering thru Canada?

Pissing and moaning about Canada isn't going to change anything.
If you TRULY want to change the Canadian government.....move there and start your own Capitalistic Campaign to make Canada into a Mini-America


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4375294 - 07/06/05 12:28 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Now Canadians are terrorists, haha


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: niteowl]
    #4375298 - 07/06/05 12:29 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

I am worried about both our borders. I have posted a lot of articles about Mexico but no one seems interested.

I remember someone started a fuck-Canada thread last year and it ended up 30 pages long.

the canucks are very patriotic.


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We have "reckless fiscal policies"

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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: niteowl]
    #4375306 - 07/06/05 12:34 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Niteowl writes:

Quote:

What people are tired of hearing is, you and lonestar, pissing and moaning about Canada.




If you didn't want to hear why lonestar has the urge to post articles such as the one he did, why did you ask him?

Of course, if the article was about America... hey, no problem! Piss and moan all you want. Over and over and over again. Because of course America is different. We never get tired of pissing and moaning about America. Besides, pissing and moaning about America can be a group activity. Everyone can play.

Quote:

We get, that you don't like the Canadian government.
Good for you.
You have the option of NOT living there.
Problem solved.

I personally could care less about how the Americans govern themselves.
It makes NO difference in how I live my life.





We get, that you don't like the American government.
Good for you.
You have the option of NOT living there.
Problem solved.

I personally could care less about how the Americans govern themselves.
It makes NO difference in how I live my life.

Quote:

If the Canadians are paying high taxes, that they voted for.......why are you bitching.




You asked why lonestar had negative stuff to say about Canada. I gave some reasons why people have negative things to say about Canada. I also showed as false your claim that Canadians had taken the idea of freedom and liberty for all and done a much better job of implementing than had America.

It's not that I'm "bitching", it's that I'm debunking your false claim. That's how it works here in this forum... someone makes a bogus claim, he gets called on it. You've been here long enough to know that.

Quote:

If you truly want to change the Canadian government.
Move back to Canada and start your own Capitalistic campaign.




But I don't want to change it. It can't be changed because too many Canadians are complacent and perfectly content with their lack of freedom and liberty. As you can see from reviewing the comments of our Canadian contributors, they value the illusion of security and their ideal of forced 'equality" more than they value their personal freedom. I, on the other hand, value my freedom more than I value overpriced pre-paid third-rate health "care" and spending a quarter of my working life filling in pettifogging "diversity compliance" forms for the government.

So I left. And I never regretted it.

Quote:

To constantly piss and moan about a government that your no longer part of......
makes you look immature......not intelligent.




And that makes the Canadians and Euros in this forum who bitch about America look mature and intelligent? The difference between them and me is that I know what I'm discussing. They don't.

Are you an American? Do you bitch about America? Why don't you leave it and live somewhere else?

Quote:

Its starting to sound like, you liked living in Canada but didnt like having to pay the high taxes.




I enjoyed some things about living in Canada, yes. But I didn't leave it just because the taxes were confiscatory -- the absurd tax rate is just a symptom of the disease -- I left because I dislike Canada's indifference (and in many cases active hostility) to liberty.

If I had stayed in Canada I would be financially independent by now. I'd be retired with a nice house and a damn good chunk of change invested. Yes, even with the confiscatory taxes I could have amassed a million bucks or so in the last seventeen and a half years, and that's enough to retire on.

Instead I came to a third-world country and ran a break-even windsurfing business, then worked six years as a bartender/ bar manager for anywhere between six hundred and twelve hundred bucks a month. I have nowhere near a million bucks and I'm not in a position to retire.

I know it's hard for many to understand, but there are people in this world who act out of principle.



Phred


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4375313 - 07/06/05 12:37 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

From your article...

Quote:


The U.S. State Department has estimated there are 40 terrorist organizations with sympathizers or supporters in the United States.




And I bet the same can be said for Britain, France, Germany, Mexico...

That article is going on about the fight against terrorism in Canada, whats the problem?


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: J4S0N]
    #4375324 - 07/06/05 12:41 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

no. but.....

Danger Up North
Canada?s welcome mat for terrorists.


http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/murdock200503210830.asp

By Deroy Murdock

Let's hope Honduras is awash in American agents. Al Qaeda's Abu Musab al-Zarqawi reportedly has dispatched Islamo-fascist murderers to penetrate the U.S. via Tegucigalpa, where bribe-hungry authorities allegedly sell passports to smooth passage through Mexico to the human highway known as the U.S.-Mexican border.


But American officials better eye the northern frontier, too. Canadians seem rather relaxed about some who inhabit the land nestled between Alaska and the Lower 48. While most Canadians are as friendly as Labrador retrievers, that attitude is not universal.

"I'm not afraid of dying, and killing doesn't frighten me," Algerian-born Canadian Fateh Kamel said on an Italian counterterrorism intercept. "If I have to press the remote control, vive the jihad!"

Kamel, who jet-setted among Afghanistan, Bosnia, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey, was arrested in Jordan on December 15, 1999, and extradited to France. He was convicted of distributing bogus passports and conspiring to blow up Paris Metro stations. He was sentenced April 6, 2001, to eight years in prison.

But after fewer than four years, France sprang Kamel for "good behavior." (What is it about iron bars and German shepherds that mellows people so?) Kamel flew home to Canada January 29.

"When Kamel arrived in Montreal, the RCMP [Royal Canadian Mounted Police] was not even at the airport to greet him," Canada's National Post reported last month. "As far as they're concerned, he is an ex-convict who has done his time and has committed no crimes in Canada."

Kamel now freely strolls Canada's streets. That's just fine, so long as he limits his violence to moose hunting and such. But what if he has humans ? Americans, even ? in his crosshairs?

"We should be looking at him and possibly sending him back to Algeria," Conservative-party deputy leader Peter MacKay said in the February 27 Toronto Star. "There is a strong circumstantial case right now to suggest this guy isn't deserving of Canadian citizenship." MacKay sees Kamel as emblematic of Ottawa's peaceful, easy feeling toward terrorist killers. "What crossed my mind was that the French authorities wanted him out of the country, and we were all too willing to take him in."

Kamel is not alone. Canada crawls with terrorists, suspected violent extremists, and folks worthy of 24-hour surveillance.

"There have been a number of instances where Canadians or individuals based here have been implicated in terrorist attacks or plans in other countries, at least a half dozen or more in the last several years," Canadian Security and Intelligence Director Jim Judd told a Canadian Senate panel in Ottawa March 7. "There are several graduates of terrorist training camps, many of whom are battle-hardened veterans of campaigns in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya and elsewhere who reside here...Often these individuals remain in contact with one another while in Canada or with colleagues outside of the country, and continue to show signs of ongoing clandestine activities, including the use of counter-surveillance techniques, secretive meetings, and encrypted communications." Among other things, Canadian-based terrorists have aspired to whack a visiting Israeli official, bomb a Jewish district in Montreal, and sabotage an El Al jet over Canada.

On March 16, British Columbian Supreme Court Justice Ian Bruce Josephson found Sikh separatists Ripudaman Singh Malik and Ajaib Singh Bagri not guilty of planting a bomb that destroyed Air India Flight 182 off the Irish coast on June 23, 1985, killing 329 people. Two baggage handlers also were killed in a subsequent explosion at Tokyo's Narita Airport.

An acquittal is an acquittal. Just ask Robert Blake. Still, the testimony against Malik remains fascinating. One witness quoted him as saying: "We had Air India crash. Nobody, nobody can do anything. It is all for Sikhism."

For his part, Bagri reportedly told the founding conference of the World Sikh Organization: "Yes, there must be our handshake with the Hindus. We will shake hands. Where? On the battlefield."

"This verdict sends a message to terrorists around the world that you can get away with these kinds of acts in Canada," Liberal-party legislator Dave Hayer told the Vancouver Sun. His publisher father was assassinated after agreeing to testify in the trial.

Egyptian refugee Mohammad Majoub remains in a Toronto jail ? for now. Federal court justice Elinor Dawson has blocked efforts to deport him to Egypt for fear he may be tortured there. Majoub admits to working on Osama bin Laden's Sudanese farm in the 1990s and meeting with members of Canada's terror-tied Khadr family. Judge Dawson's thoughts on the "security certificate," which has permitted his detention without bail or charge since June 2000, highlight the logic that eventually could free someone like Majoub. "When reviewing the reasonableness of a security certificate," Dawson ruled, "at issue is whether there are 'reasonable grounds to believe' certain facts. The issue is not whether those facts are true."

Meanwhile, Adil Charkaoui was released February 18 on bail of $50,000 Canadian (about $41,500 in U.S. dollars). Charkaoui claims no terrorist ties, but al-Qaeda honcho Abu Zubaida and convicted terrorist Ahmed Ressam say they met him in 1998 at an Afghan terror training camp.

Algerian-born Ressam, a failed Montreal refugee applicant and suspected Fateh Kamel prot?g?, was caught by U.S. Border Patrol on December 14, 1999, at Port Angeles, Washington after crossing the Canadian frontier in an explosive-laden car. He dreamed of ringing in the millennium by blowing up Los Angeles International Airport.

"CSIS was aware of him since 1995 and was surveilling him, but they never put him out of business," the National Post's Stewart Bell, author of last year's Cold Terror: How Canada Nurtures and Exports Terrorism to the World, told journalist Bill Gladstone. "On the other hand, the second he entered the United States, he was stopped, arrested, and turned into a very good government informant." In his book, Bell writes: "Canada has tried to smother terrorism with kindness...Its most valuable contribution to the war on terrorism may well be its terrorists."

Canadian Zaynab Khadr flew from Islamabad, Pakistan to Toronto February 17 with her daughter, age 4 1/2, and teenage sister. She joined her mother and brother, Karim, who returned to Canada last April. Karim was wounded when Pakistani forces raided a suspected al-Qaeda hideaway. Her Egyptian-born father, who was killed in that attack, previously had been arrested in Islamabad after a 1995 Egyptian embassy truck bombing. Another brother, Abdurahman, returned to Canada in December 2003. He told Canadian Broadcasting that he grew up in an "al-Qaeda family." (To be fair, he briefly worked for the CIA.)

"No one likes killing people," the burka-clad Ms. Khadr to the Toronto Star, referring to September 11. "But sometimes killing people can solve a problem, a bigger problem." She added: "A man doesn't just get on the plane and put himself in a building unless he really believes in something."

The Washington Times reported last September 24 that Adnan G. El Shukrijumah, an al-Qaeda cell leader with a $5 million U.S. bounty on his head, visited Canada in 2003 seeking nuclear materials for a dirty bomb.

Paul Martin, Canada's Liberal premier, attended a May 2000 dinner while finance minister. Its hosts: The Federation of Association of Canadian Tamils, a front for the Tamil Tigers, a Sri Lankan terrorist group. It has killed at least 60 people, including two Americans, and injured more than 1,400 others, the State Department reports. Martin, and international cooperation minister Maria Minna, ignored security officials who urged them to stay away. Wooing Canada's sizable Tamil minority apparently was irresistible.

Canadian immigration agents admitted Mahmoud Mohammed Issa Mohammad in 1987, despite his role in attacking an El Al aircraft in Athens in 1968. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine alumnus has foiled deportation through relentless legal tricks.

"There are known al-Qaeda cells in Montreal and Toronto," one congressional expert tells me. She nonetheless detects progress among Canadian counterterrorists. "They are very sensitive about being called a conduit for terrorism. Since September 11, Canada has been on the offense. The RCMP has some joint intelligence centers where both Americans and Canadians operate." Still, this aide sees areas of danger, from porous borders to vulnerable infrastructure. Detonating the Canadian side of the Ambassador Bridge between Detroit and Windsor, Ontario, for example, could cripple the most economically valuable trade route linking our two countries.

The Capitol Hill staffer, who spoke anonymously, added: "Canada has stepped up their visa application procedures, but there are huge populations of people they have let in under refugee and asylum status and as immigrants who may be of concern. They are changing their laws to allow them to deport those people. But increasing that effort and deporting those people is something the United States would encourage."

Harvey Kushner, author of the hair-raising counterterrorism best-seller Holy War on the Home Front, is less sanguine. "It's quite disturbing that Canada's immigration policies have let this situation fester and grow," he says. "We do not have an electrified fence. When you have a neighbor who is not on the same page, it's indeed troublesome."

What can America do about all this? Pressing the Canadians to tighten up may require constant engagement. Amplifying the calls of Canada's Tories for stricter immigration and easier deportation would help. For starters, President Bush should broach border security when he meets his North American counterparts in Mexico on March 23.

The warm U.S.-Canadian relationship, illustrated by our 3,145-mile unprotected boundary, cooled somewhat when Ottawa recently refused to help Washington develop defenses against incoming nuclear-tipped missiles. But that modest dispute will pale beside the northward-flowing rancor that will erupt if a terrorist attack kills innocent Americans, and U.S. officials discover that the butchers slipped past complacent Canadians.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: psilomonkey]
    #4375351 - 07/06/05 12:51 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

no problem. niteowl wanted to know why I even give a shit about Canada.

My point was that Canada is our neighbor and things that happen up there effect us down here. ( and vise-versa)


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4375672 - 07/06/05 02:27 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Of course, if the article was about America... hey, no problem! Piss and moan all you want. Over and over and over again. Because of course America is different. We never get tired of pissing and moaning about America. Besides, pissing and moaning about America can be a group activity. Everyone can play.




How is pointing out problems in MY government wrong.
I believe that I can make a difference in MY government by speaking to my representatives and voting (which I do).

Crying, about how another government is being run, dosent help that government change.


Quote:

We get, that you don't like the American government.
Good for you.
You have the option of NOT living there.




I also have the option of trying to change the parts of our government I dont like.
The bitching, your doing about Canada, isnt changing anything.

Quote:

I personally could care less about how the Americans govern themselves.
It makes NO difference in how I live my life.




If you live in the US then you should care more about your own government that you do about Canadas :rolleyes:


Quote:

But I don't want to change it. It can't be changed because too many Canadians are complacent and perfectly content with their lack of freedom and liberty.




From what I have heard from other people living in Canada it dosent seem to be that bad, or they would make changes to the system.

Quote:

As you can see from reviewing the comments of our Canadian contributors, they value the illusion of security and their ideal of forced 'equality" more than they value their personal freedom.




um...lets see, they havent got Muslim raticals trying to kill them
they are allowing civil rights to people that we don't
they don't have the DEA itching to get in their personal business

You right they are doing a much worse job in the security and civil right area than we are, my appologies :rolleyes:


Quote:

And that makes the Canadians and Euros in this forum who bitch about America look mature and intelligent?




I dont see Canada trying to invade countries on trumped up charges either.


Quote:

Are you an American? Do you bitch about America? Why don't you leave it and live somewhere else?




Because I believe that I can make a difference in how our government is run.

Are you saying, that moving away and bitching is a better option?


Quote:

If I had stayed in Canada I would be financially independent by now. I'd be retired with a nice house and a damn good chunk of change invested. Yes, even with the confiscatory taxes I could have amassed a million bucks or so in the last seventeen and a half years, and that's enough to retire on.




So, the taxation system isnt that bad afterall.

Quote:

Instead I came to a third-world country and ran a break-even windsurfing business, then worked six years as a bartender/ bar manager for anywhere between six hundred and twelve hundred bucks a month. I have nowhere near a million bucks and I'm not in a position to retire.




So, you would rather work than retire?

Quote:

I know it's hard for many to understand, but there are people in this world who act out of principle.




What freedoms do you have in America that you didn't have in Canada?


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: niteowl]
    #4375697 - 07/06/05 02:38 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Phred doesn't live in America. I'm quite sure he lives in the Dominican Republic (the DR is apparently a bastion of freedom and liberty).


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4375752 - 07/06/05 02:55 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

apparently


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: niteowl]
    #4375768 - 07/06/05 03:00 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Yeah I use that word tenuously here :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinetwighead
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #26377218 - 12/12/19 03:29 PM (6 months, 21 days ago)

we're about to find out if this comes true!


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¿Check out some art m8?


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: twighead]
    #26377235 - 12/12/19 03:38 PM (6 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

The character of this attitude, so far as it's possible to guess at, appears to be based on the view that Canada is developing in a way that its whole is becoming increasingly less than the sum of its parts.




What a stupid article.  Thanks for this blast from the past.

Not sure what the hell this person is trying to even say here.


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