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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27745997 -

Brian Jones said:
That assumes simple random sampling (perfect random sampling). You didn't have that, so you have no valid estimates. It's impossible to do inferential statistics from a convenience sample.



The method I used was pretty good random sampling.  How should it have been done, and why do you ignore the Gallup results that shows the same thing?

I'm sharing what I've learned.  I know you guys hate to hear it, but I've provided three different sources of information (including various follow-up polls).  Even if we assume people were afraid to vote (which I absolutely know they weren't because I also spoke with pro-Ukrainian voters), the follow-up polls still indicate people thought the results were accurate.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #27746010 -

The Blind Ass said:
koods said:
If the US decided to expand its presence in Cuba beyond Guantanamo Bay and invaded and occupied half the island, then ten days later the US held an referendum asking if that occupied territory would like to join the US, there is no way you would find that legitimate.



:cookiemonster:
:micdrop:

End of discussion.



It's not the same thing though.  A better analogy would be if some other country helped overthrow the elected government of Cuba, and then the US went in to hold a referendum to see if overthrow of Cuba's elected government is what the Cuban people really wanted.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27746083 -

Ugh.


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Give me Liberty caps or give me Death caps.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27746115 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Brian Jones said:
That assumes simple random sampling (perfect random sampling). You didn't have that, so you have no valid estimates. It's impossible to do inferential statistics from a convenience sample.



The method I used was pretty good random sampling.  How should it have been done, and why do you ignore the Gallup results that shows the same thing?

I'm sharing what I've learned.  I know you guys hate to hear it, but I've provided three different sources of information (including various follow-up polls).  Even if we assume people were afraid to vote (which I absolutely know they weren't because I also spoke with pro-Ukrainian voters), the follow-up polls still indicate people thought the results were accurate.



The way it should have been done is every member of the population has an equal chance of being sampled. I know nothing of the Gallup results.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

Simulacrum
The truth which conceals that there is none

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27746268 -

Isn't Gallup polls done via phone? Therefor they are heavily biased towards people with landlines, basically very old people.


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Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: christopera]
    #27746286 -

Of course they call mobile phones too.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: koods]
    #27746291 -

Yeah, but nobody on mobile answers calls from numbers they don't know. So again, old people.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: christopera]
    #27746457 -

christopera said:
Yeah, but nobody on mobile answers calls from numbers they don't know. So again, old people.


😂🤣 this post cracked up because its so true but dam funny the way you put it.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #27746554 -

The Blind Ass said:
chopstick said:
ballsalsa said:
Call it what you want, Russian forces were in occupation of the region before the vote, outside the scope of their treaty. Putin admitted it. No amount of sugar coating can change it.



Call it what you want, but no amount of sugar coating can change the fact that Crimeans were so disgusted with the illegitimate post-coup regime installed by Obama and Victoria Nuland that they voted in a 95% super-majority to join Russia.

God Damn I swear to God, if it were up to people like you all of Crimea would have been forced to stay in Ukraine just so they could be brutally oppressed, murdered, tortured and executed by the fuckin' shitbag Banderites that stole power with US-backing just to satisfy your personal disdain for Russia.




Let’s see here.  Hmmm…

The territory occupied ( invaded / infiltrated ) by Russia  then voted overwhelmingly in favor of secession from the country the land falls within - in in favor of joining Russia…by 95%.

You don’t say…

I’m sure it’s got absolutely nothing to do with Russia’s well established interests in the strategic ports as well as all the neighboring areas…

but then again it apparently did!
bc they’d later go on to prove it post facto via invading Ukraine outright.



Watching people complain over the Crimea referendum is hilarious.

Uhh hello, nobody should be forced to live under a US-installed regime that just did a violent coup and is de-facto ran by neo-nazi's whom are themselves proxies for the US Government.

The regime in charge in Kiev has been a US proxy ever since 2014. It's not legitimate. And then people get mad because Crimea voted to leave that fascist shitshow?

Give me a fucking break

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27746570 -

1) Yeah, you say a lot of things that you aren't naive enough to actually believe, nowadays. :shrug:

2) Stable Genius is great. He's eager to find fault with the U.S. and frankly, I don't blame him for that. The U.S. is often at fault for ills in the world.  Personally, I don't think the U.S. and allies should spend so much effort meddling in the internal affairs of other nations. I don't think Russia should either. Seems to me that's our primary bone of contention here. Unlike you, I don't believe that political meddling by the U.S. justifies invasion and annexation of territory by Russia. Just as continuation of the previous regime wouldn't have justified a U.S. led invasion and referendum under occupation.

So let's recap:

We all know you can't possibly believe the moral justifications for either invasion

We all know the U.S. and other Western powers do shady shit behind the scenes

So does Russia, China, and everyone else with the means.

Domestic elections of any kind held under foreign military occupation are not legitimate. That includes elections held under U.S. military occupation, Russian occupation, etc. Don't bother looking for a counter example or claiming that you talked to a whole bunch of people who loved this or that referendum because, say it with me now,
"Domestic elections of any kind held under foreign military occupation are not legitimate"

But what if there was a coup in the recent past?
Not legitimate

But what if it would deprive someone of a port?
Not legitimate

But what if you just liberated them from orthodox theocratic rule?
Not legitimate

But what about occupied Japan?
Not legitimate

Etc.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: chopstick]
    #27746571 -

Cry some more crocodile tears

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #27746703 -

ballsalsa said:
Cry some more crocodile tears



If there was a fascist takeover in the United States supported by a foreign power, say China, would you want to live under their rule? Would you consider any referendums to leave to be illegitimate?

Honestly just seems to me like you are seriously lacking your humanity.

Crimea left the rule of the fascists behind. Meanwhile, no evidence has ever been put forward that the Ru military presence coerced anyone into voting in favor of leaving. This is an undeniable geopolitical reality which both the United States and the illegitimate regime in Kiev refuse to accept.

The US refuses to accept it because they can't allow for there to be peace in Ukraine, they want to keep the war going, to fight Russia to the last drop of Ukrainian blood.

The Kiev regime refuses to accept it because they do the bidding of the United States and are hopped up on Nazi ideology at the same time, having left behind any illusion of rational behavior long ago.

That's just how it is.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: chopstick]
    #27746749 -

Maybe they refuse to accept it because it was carried out under military occupation?

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27746954 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The Blind Ass said:
koods said:
If the US decided to expand its presence in Cuba beyond Guantanamo Bay and invaded and occupied half the island, then ten days later the US held an referendum asking if that occupied territory would like to join the US, there is no way you would find that legitimate.



:cookiemonster:
:micdrop:

End of discussion.



It's not the same thing though.  A better analogy would be if some other country helped overthrow the elected government of Cuba, and then the US went in to hold a referendum to see if overthrow of Cuba's elected government is what the Cuban people really wanted.



Which they famously never did. After the Cuban Revolution the island fell out of our sphere of influence and we never tried to fuck with that, certainly not under the guise of being democratic.


--------------------

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27747508 -

Brian Jones said:
The way it should have been done is every member of the population has an equal chance of being sampled. I know nothing of the Gallup results.


Sampling 50 people from all over the place was a reasonable sample.  Again, ignore my experience and take any poll done after the referendum.  Here's another:

Crimea Exit Poll:  Around 93% back Russia union
16 Mar 2014
BBC
Quote:
One voter, Olga Koziko, told the BBC that she was voting for secession because she did not want to be governed by "those Nazis who came to power in Kiev".




--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27747518 -

ballsalsa said:
Domestic elections of any kind held under foreign military occupation are not legitimate. That includes elections held under U.S. military occupation, Russian occupation, etc. Don't bother looking for a counter example or claiming that you talked to a whole bunch of people who loved this or that referendum because, say it with me now,
"Domestic elections of any kind held under foreign military occupation are not legitimate"

But what if there was a coup in the recent past?
Not legitimate

But what if it would deprive someone of a port?
Not legitimate

But what if you just liberated them from orthodox theocratic rule?
Not legitimate

But what about occupied Japan?
Not legitimate

Etc.



Just so I understand, the Ukrainian Far Right installed an unelected Government, people in Crimea wanted to leave and decided to hold a referendum to leave, which had a huge turnout, the newly installed Gov't didn't want the referendum to happen, Russian troops in Ukraine helped ensure a peaceful referendum, and your position is the referendum is invalid because it went down peacefully, and the illegitimate Gov't wasn't able to stop it?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27747539 -

No, my position is that the referendum is invalid because it was carried out under foreign military occupation.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27747557 -

Right, so either your opinion is that the referendum be held while the Nazis try to stop it, or you feel the overthrow of the Government by the Far Right was legitimate.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27747562 -

No, that's the strawman you've built for yourself.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27747967 -

What other option is there?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy


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