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Offlinelonestar2004
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2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years?
    #4359625 - 07/01/05 03:00 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)




Jul. 1, 2005. 01:00 AM

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Content...ol=968350116795


2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years?

We are in the grip of a disturbing malaise, marked by poor leadership and a consequent lack of vision


RICHARD GWYN

Canada today resembles a marathoner who has run with quiet competence to near to the head of the pack but who now is seized by doubt about whether he can sustain the pace ? indeed, whether he might have to drop out entirely.

This doubt isn't about where we are today. It's about where we may find ourselves the day after tomorrow ? in around 2020, the year the Toronto-based Dominion Institute has chosen as its measuring stick for Canada's future prospects and which is examined in today's special Toronto Star editorial.

In private conversations, the question, "How do you think things will be for Canada in 2020?" repeatedly uncovers a striking, and disturbing, note of underlying pessimism.

No one says that by 2020 we will have shown ourselves and the world that the 21st century will belong to Canada, in an echo of the famous forecast made (wrongly) by prime minister Wilfrid Laurier about the last century.

Instead, quite a few individuals express concern that there will be a good deal less to Canada by 2020 than there is today.

This pessimism isn't based upon an assumption that Quebec will leave. Indeed, some would argue that Quebec has already separated in almost all practical respects so that the last step of symbolic separation is no longer necessary. It is based even less on the assumption that Canada will fall apart and fall into the United States (which actually wouldn't want us).

The character of this attitude, so far as it's possible to guess at, appears to be based on the view that Canada is developing in a way that its whole is becoming increasingly less than the sum of its parts.

That, in ways not easily definable, we are year by year collectively diminishing ourselves.

It doesn't exactly help that Maclean's magazine, hunting for reasons why Canadians should celebrate their achievements this Canada Day, offered that several Canadian actresses are making it big on American television, and that the only North American bishop named as a possible pope was a Canadian (by only one newspaper ? and, anyway, he didn't make the cut).

The most explicit expression of this pessimistic attitude was contained in the recent declaration by the Ottawa-based Council of Chief Executives, which represents 150 of the country's largest corporations, that Canada has become "a nation adrift."

The Dominion Institute's 2020 project, which assumes that in a decade-and-a-half Canada will undergo substantial change, possibly much of it not at all for the better, is another expression of that attitude.

There is also the sense of resignation ? unlike the outpouring of patriotism inspired in the past to similar threats to national unity ? that seems to be the result of the return of the issue of Quebec's possible separation, first by the likely electoral success of the pro-sovereignty Bloc Qu?b?cois in Ottawa and then by the probable election victory of the Parti Qu?b?cois in Quebec City.

The national mood just seems to be confused, cynical and crabby.

At first glance, it's hard to find good reasons for any of this. By many of the basic indicators of national health, we're doing fine.

Our finances are in better shape than any member of the G8, and are bettered in very few industrial democracies (Australia, for one).

Our economic expansion, now a decade old, is one of the longest in our peacetime history. If the United States falters, so will we. But we still have some important reserve assets: Our finances are in the black and our housing price bubble is a lot smaller than almost anyone else's.

In one of the most demanding tests of national character ? the ability to integrate large numbers of newcomers from all over the world ? we have done better by far than any other industrial democracy, with only the U.S. as a serious rival to our performance.

We did undergo a severe blow to our national confidence in the almost-lost Quebec referendum of 1995. But that was a decade ago. By contrast, Americans are having to cope with the national trauma of a potential second Vietnam in Iraq, while Europeans have had their confidence shattered by the crushing rejection of the new constitution of the European Union.

So why the national mood of malaise and self-doubt?

We lack any sense of a national vision, of a collective goal, of a national project. Without it, it's no wonder that many feel that our whole is becoming progressively less than the sum of our parts.

The root source of the malaise is the national government. In saying that the nation is adrift, the CEOs were really saying that Ottawa is adrift.

The sponsorship scandal has hit Canadians like a blow in the solar plexus. The worst is over, but we'll be hurting inwardly for a long time.

Here, in a modern, well-educated, international-minded, increasingly urban society, we have had, spilling out from our TV screens, the entrails of an orgy of corruption and bribery that might even have caused John A. Macdonald, famed for his 19th-century Pacific Railway scandal, to blush.

It's put into question the integrity of our public service (how come no one in Ottawa uttered a peep of protest?) and it has spattered all federalists in Quebec.

Prime Minister Paul Martin had nothing to do with it, although another scandal that's just broken ? the issuing of temporary residency permits to would-be immigrants as election bait to ethnic groups ? happened on his watch.

Despite these scandals, the Liberals are almost certain to win the next election. Which makes us a one-party state ? but a one-party state with a "Mr. Dithers" as its leader.

Few prime ministers have fallen further from higher up than has Martin, once universally admired as the Conqueror of the Deficit.

Martin doesn't lack a vision. Instead, he has about a hundred of them. So, effectively, he has none. And so neither do we.

He's only an individual. There are deeper political concerns.

Despite another $41 billion thrown at it by Ottawa by way of the provinces, the future of Canada's health-care system is in doubt. Uncertainty about whether our one-tier system can last has been magnified by the Supreme Court's ruling that private medical insurance schemes are legal unless waiting times are "reasonable" (whatever reasonable may mean).

A sideways slippage to a two-tier health-care system ? a forecast that in private many are already ready to make ? would put into question the whole complex web of interrelationships in the decentralized, diverse, regionalized, polyglot, ("post-modern" is the modish term), society that Canada has become.

One-tier health care, that is, universal service available to all regardless of salary or status, has become the tangible expression of our common citizenship.

If it goes, and if in addition Quebec has already half left, and if Alberta has more money than it can possibly spend on itself while many other Canadians have a lot less than they need, and if our native people are now self-governing (with, for instance, their own legal systems), are we all still full citizens of the same country?

And if not, should Canada more accurately now be called a commonwealth rather than a Confederation, or some form of loose political association rather than a nation-state?

A second political concern assails us at the same time. We've long seen ourselves in the way that others (we assume, and not inaccurately) see us. We are, in other words, the world's good guys.

We're still that. But our international stature is shrinking.

Our own efforts, in diplomacy, the military, trade (to any country except the U.S.) and in aid, have all been dwindling.

We're scrambling now to catch up to where we once were. But the going has got much tougher in the meantime.

Other nations, most obviously China and India, are moving to the front and centre of the international stage, and so are crowding us out. Even tiny Nepal and impoverished Bangladesh now contribute more to United Nations peacekeeping than we do.

Our international diminution is probably just a part of the life cycle among nations. But we've invested far more of our self-esteem than is usual in our ability to play an important part in making the world a better place, and of being seen (by ourselves and others) to be doing this. So we'll be harder on ourselves if we do go down, even if only relatively so.

Projecting as far ahead as 2020 is ultimately a mug's game. The unexpected has to be expected. Events over which we have no control may blow us along faster, or may blow in our face.

Our strengths ? a good many of them, like almost the complete security we enjoy, are a gift from God or nature (and from geography) ? haven't altered. We really have made ourselves a miniature of the entire world in a way for which there are few, if any, historic precedents. Anyone who can do this can do a great deal else.

But the pessimism and the malaise are also real. We do need a vision. And we do need a leader. We now have neither.

Once we have both, we'll be able to race back to the head of the pack. But of course, being Canadians, we wouldn't do it in a triumphalist way.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4359729 - 07/01/05 03:37 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

The guy kept saying things like "The national mood just seems to be confused, cynical and crabby"...however this flies right in the face of the day to day experience of actual Canadians.

I don't know anyone in Canada who feels "confused, cynical and crabby" about their country. There doesn't even seem to be any media attention about this supposed "national mood", aside from this guy's article.

This reads like an article about Canada's future as written from an American's philosophy. I expect that most Canadians you talk to won't talk about any grand vision for the country's future. We don't have high-hopes of leading the world anywhere, nor do we feel the need to have a great national importance in the world.

We're just Canadian, you know?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4359852 - 07/01/05 04:07 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


This reads like an article about Canada's future as written from an American's philosophy. I expect that most Canadians you talk to won't talk about any grand vision for the country's future. We don't have high-hopes of leading the world anywhere, nor do we feel the need to have a great national importance in the world.



That's the exact impression I got, if by American philosophy you mean Fascist philosophy. This guy writes like a modern day Mussolini.

Therefore, for the Fascist, everything is in the State, and nothing human or
spiritual exists, much less has value,-outside the State.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineRiverMan
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Registered: 06/26/04
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4360067 - 07/01/05 04:51 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

As a Canadian, I don't quite identify myself or my country in this article. As others have just said, why should we need a "bigger vision" or a specific role to achieve in 15 years? What would be the purpose of such a thing if we just want to progress as a society as we have done in the past?

And if the words role/vision mean invade another country, then I want no part of it!


--------------------
A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: RiverMan]
    #4360107 - 07/01/05 04:59 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Exactly! If Canada is to "lead" the world anywhere, we will do it only by example...never by force!

I would say that to remain low-key is a part of what it is to be Canadian.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4360177 - 07/01/05 05:16 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Canada Unveils Plan to Bolster Influence Internationally

By Doug Struck
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, April 20, 2005; Page A17

TORONTO, April 19 -- Canada's government said Tuesday it would beef up its military, bolster its diplomatic corps and overhaul its foreign aid in a bid to reverse the country's diminishing influence in global affairs.

"Our international presence has suffered," Prime Minister Paul Martin said in releasing a long-promised foreign policy review. "Now is the time to rebuild."

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The proposals were promptly attacked as too limited and too vague by Martin's opponents, who questioned why the plan was abruptly announced just as speculation about a possible election was sweeping Ottawa.

"This is not the dynamic action plan we had hoped to see," said Belinda Stronach, a member of the opposition Conservative Party in Parliament. "There is virtually nothing new here."

Martin's ruling Liberal Party has been stunned by plummeting public approval following an influence-peddling scandal involving Martin's predecessor, Jean Chretien. A Conservative Party legislator, Stockwell Day, said at a news conference in Ottawa on Tuesday that there "seemed to be a rush" to announce the foreign policy review to counteract the drop in the polls.

Martin said the plan fulfilled a campaign pledge to "redefine Canada's role in the world" in response to periodic hand-wringing over the country's perceived loss of status as a military and political power.

"You cannot have a robust foreign policy if all you're prepared to engage in is empty moralizing," Martin said.

The review proposes changes in the military that include instituting a central command, increasing the size of the 62,000-member active-duty military by 5,000, boosting the special operations forces, adding equipment, including helicopters and ships, and creating an emergency response team capable of dealing with disasters anywhere.

The plan, together with a five-year, $10 billion budget increase for the military proposed by Martin, "takes us to where we need to go," Defense Minister Bill Graham said Tuesday.

"I can't imagine they will be able to finance it," Conservative legislator Gordon O'Connor said.

The plan also calls for doubling foreign aid in five years but recommends paring the number of countries receiving it from 155 to 25. The shorter list of countries, mostly in Africa, would receive two-thirds of Canada's foreign aid by 2010 under the plan.

"We're not abandoning anybody," the minister of international cooperation, Aileen Carroll, told reporters. By "targeting" aid, Canada will concentrate on areas where it can be a main donor and "not the 15th donor in that country," she said.

The plan also urges strengthening the United Nations, increasing ties with the "new global powers" China, India and Brazil, and diversifying trade links with countries other than the United States, which now buys about 80 percent of Canada's exports.

Martin continued the tradition of walking a tightrope in relations with the United States. Canada would remain a supporter of NATO and "the great Western alliance," the prime minister said Monday, but it would not "be out there as the handmaiden of any country."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2431-2005Apr19.html



You're going to beef up your military?....all those Americans who voted for Kerry and lost then moved north will be protesting in the streets...L.O.L.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineAnisotropic
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4360228 - 07/01/05 05:28 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

"That whole artical was filled with so much rhetoric, because history will surely be on his side."

"That artical is mostly full of pointed anecdotal speculation, combined with hypothetical situations."

Is what I said about some other artical that you posted.

Doesn't really seem I even have to change the wording to discribe this one.

Wonder why?

Maybe if this guy wants to live in a country with more 'presence' he should move to America.


Edited by Anisotropic (07/01/05 05:30 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4360231 - 07/01/05 05:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

You're going to beef up your military?

:lol:

Fat chance! The govt. has been talking about "beefing up" our military as long as I've been alive :smirk:

They can't beef up our military because not enough Canadians see a need to join the military. We're not fighting any wars, after all...whats the point in paying for a large standing army? :rolleyes:

Something that becomes very obvious about Canada, if you live here for a few years, is the disconnect between Canadian citizens and the Canadian government. They talk their talk and have their little scandals....while we go about our daily business and largely ignore what they say/do. :smirk:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4360748 - 07/01/05 08:03 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

5 more stars on the US flag...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4361194 - 07/01/05 10:39 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

no thanks (quebec)

maybe we can use the new supreme court ruling (eminent domain) and take Alberta and BC???


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4362555 - 07/02/05 10:35 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

So what is this, you hate Canada because its liberal, so anything that says anything even remotely bad about it, you're going to post?

These articles don't even say much of anything.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4362588 - 07/02/05 10:54 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I can't comment on the politics or other points of these articles not living there, but I would like to give my impression of Canada and it's people. I see a vast, varied country, rich in natural and cultural resources, and populated by a diverse, industrious and intelligent people. I think Canada has more than enough potential to become a world leader in many respects, and I think her best days still lay ahead of her.


(Sorry to take this off on this tangent, folks... :laugh: )


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OfflineBCBudJohn
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4364618 - 07/02/05 11:56 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I agree that this article sounds more like someone trying to spark a conservative uprising than someone giving an accurate description of the "canadian mood".

Every canadian here went out july 1st, and probably had a BBQ, beer, watched some fireworks and felt so fucking proud to be apart of this country.

I think the national mood is pessimistic, but more people express resignation than confusion and cynicism. No one takes our multi-cultural heritage and tolerance of cultural identity (complete with their own laws and governing bodies)as lack of national direction and a slippery slope that will end in our annexation. More to the point, most canadians (and i mean, almost everybody) has their roots somewhere other than canada. Everybody can relate to the NEED for a cultural mosaic.

I agree, canada will be a leader, but we won't be the leader this articles purports to be the only way to attain world leadership. We will lead in a similar way to the restructuring of aid to africa (reduce the countries to 25, so we can be influential in a small way)

The fact is, we're only 30 million, our footprint is small, but a real leader is someone who follows their principle even when stacked up against bigger, pushier, more intimidating circumstances. This report doesn't address canada's reputation in the countries themselves, only of the governments and leading elites. After travelling to europe, mexico and central america, i know canada is respected.


--------------------
Peace
John


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4366080 - 07/03/05 12:20 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Lonestar, what is your problem with Canada?

Anytime someone mentions Canada you have something negative to say about our northern neighbors.

What have they done to piss you off?

Canada, IMO, is a far better country than the US.

They have taken the American ideas of freedom and liberty for all, and done a much better job of implementing, it than we have.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: niteowl]
    #4366140 - 07/03/05 12:45 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

As a Canadian citizen who chose to leave Canada after being born and raised there and living and working there for three and a half decades, I could probably give you a few reasons why Americans would have something negative to say about Canada.

-- They are the only country in the world other than North Korea and Cuba with a single tier socialized medicine program. To make things worse, the system is so hopelessly broken that Canadians die on a regular basis waiting for treatment they could receive in a matter of days in the US. There are more MRI machines in the city of Philadelphia than there are in all of Canada. That's why it's not uncommon to wait six months or more for an MRI scan.

-- The Liberal federal government is hopelessly corrupt and has been for decades.

-- the level of taxation is confiscatory.

-- Quebec holds the rest of the country hostage while billions of dollars are pissed away on bilingual initiatives that don't work and aren't needed.

-- The mountain of government regulations (not even mentioning the level of taxation now -- although that too is an enormous barrier -- just speaking of petty and absurd regulations) makes it twice (perhaps more) as hard to run a business than in the US.

-- Canadians as a whole (and yes I realize this doesn't apply to every single Canadian) have grown so accustomed to seeing Government as the answer to all of life's problems that they expect to be cosseted and supported from cradle to grave with the minimum of effort on their part. They expect to be protected even from those things they deem "offensive".

-- The Canadian military is a joke and has been for decades.

That'll do for starters.

As for "freedom and liberty for all", only someone who has never lived in Canada could claim Canada has done a much better job of implementing it than the US. Or someone who has no grasp of the meaning of either freedom or liberty.


Phred


--------------------


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OfflineBCBudJohn
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4368104 - 07/04/05 02:37 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

So true.


--------------------
Peace
John


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OfflineRiverMan
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4369731 - 07/04/05 05:12 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Well Phred, I have to disagree with most of the "points" (I'd call them interpretations of the facts you hold) you just made :

"They are the only country in the world other than North Korea and Cuba with a single tier socialized medicine program. To make things worse, the system is so hopelessly broken that Canadians die on a regular basis waiting for treatment they could receive in a matter of days in the US. There are more MRI machines in the city of Philadelphia than there are in all of Canada. That's why it's not uncommon to wait six months or more for an MRI scan. "
Well, you may have a point there, as I agree our healthcare system has its faults (lots of them actually lol...but I wouldn't call it "hopelessly broken", I've been to hospitals and I got treated EVERY time! Yes!) But it simply makes me sick that while people here are looking for solutions to improve healthcare for all Canadians others brag about how weel funded U.S. hospitals are. Well, Phred, the answer is simple for Canadians : we wouldn't like to live in a country knowing some people have more rights to a better treatment (and ultimately life) than others and that this right is proportional to your income. This is simply how NOT to build a society. (by the way I would suggest you to read more about Cuba's healthcare system as I believe it should serve as an example for the world. Just try to see how they do it, even with an embargo going on for 40 years...)

"The Liberal federal government is hopelessly corrupt and has been for decades."
I'd immediately ask for facts and proofs of such a hopelessly corrupt system, but hey, probably the only news of Canada you recieve is about the sponsorship program, so I won't bother mentionning the ethical transparency our government (especially Quebec) has shown over the years. (what's that? no independent 9/11 commission for you in the U.S.? Wow...I'd be really pissed!)

"The level of taxation is confiscatory."
Well, I must guess this is the main reason why you moved down South, but now that you're gone don't complain about the democratic choices our country has made election over election in recent years. You don't have anything to say about it anymore and if people find the taxation level so "confiscatory" they should also be moving away... they are free to do so.

"Quebec holds the rest of the country hostage while billions of dollars are pissed away on bilingual initiatives that don't work and aren't needed."
I could get in quite an argument with you over this (as i live in Quebec and am French-speaking) but I must agree the province of Quebec shouldn't be allowed more money than other provinces inside the federation. Unfortunately, the problem goes much deeper than money and your statement clearly demonstrates you do not quite know the situation here. We'll talk about it once you go shopping at the local mall and a salesman/saleswoman refuses to speak to you in the official language... Otherwise just keep on reading about Quebec's history in the past 250 years.

" The mountain of government regulations (not even mentioning the level of taxation now -- although that too is an enormous barrier -- just speaking of petty and absurd regulations) makes it twice (perhaps more) as hard to run a business than in the US. "
I guess your conclusion that a business here is twice as hard (...or perhaps more!!! MY GOD!) to run as in the U.S is the result of a very scientific process which calculates the average daily amout of calories a CEO has to ingest in order not to file bankrupcy...

"The Canadian military is a joke and has been for decades."
Well, I agree that it's kind of a joke from a U.S. perspective but I would ask you to tell me why we should need better military protection ? As opposed to the U.S., we just haven't deemed necessary, in our own interest, to install dictatorships and support right-wing extremist states all over the world this past century...

"As for "freedom and liberty for all", only someone who has never lived in Canada could claim Canada has done a much better job of implementing it than the US. Or someone who has no grasp of the meaning of either freedom or liberty."
As for your beautiful and thoughtful conclusion, I should add that freedom must have many different interpretations because I don't think Canada has ever invaded another country for trivial reasons (aka OIL, most recently) and killed innocent bystanders while doing so. I my book, if you wanna live freedom and liberty, not just for yourself but for all, you gotta NOT kill people while doing so.

Here's the other side of it.


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A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?


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OfflineBCBudJohn
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Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 150
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Last seen: 11 years, 17 days
Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: RiverMan]
    #4370152 - 07/04/05 08:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I believe that Quebecers have every right to speak their language in their country wherever they go in canada (even out west here, where we're closer to mexico than quebec) as i have a right to speak english if i choose to go to quebec or any other pre-dominantly french area (southern manitoba for example).
We are stronger for it as a nation. I know alot of people out west are, frankly, pissed about this idea. But we all need to respect our roots.


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Peace
John


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: RiverMan]
    #4370424 - 07/04/05 11:20 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

"They are the only country in the world other than North Korea and Cuba with a single tier socialized medicine program. To make things worse, the system is so hopelessly broken that Canadians die on a regular basis waiting for treatment they could receive in a matter of days in the US. There are more MRI machines in the city of Philadelphia than there are in all of Canada. That's why it's not uncommon to wait six months or more for an MRI scan. "

Well, you may have a point there, as I agree our healthcare system has its faults (lots of them actually lol...but I wouldn't call it "hopelessly broken", I've been to hospitals and I got treated EVERY time! Yes!) But it simply makes me sick that while people here are looking for solutions to improve healthcare for all Canadians others brag about how weel funded U.S. hospitals are.




The solution is to break the stranglehold the Canadian government has on it, duh! If people want to pay for it out of their own pockets (or have their insurance company pay for it), let them!

As it happens, every time I've been to a hospital I got treated, too. I did however have to wait for three and a half months to get a CAT scan to be sure I didn't have a brain tumor. And I never did get the followup MRI scan. I decided not to wait the year and a bit my neurologist told me it would take to schedule it. Good thing it turned out not to be a tumor, huh?

My mother's neighbor waited over fourteen months for her first knee replacement. She's in the hospital recovering from her second knee replacement as I type this. Waiting time for the second one? Two years, three weeks. And her case is not unusual, it's the norm. Here's just one of a hundred links I could provide to similar data:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/3/21/101350.shtml

I've posted in this forum at least a half a dozen times giving more details. Look them up if you feel like it.

Quote:

Well, Phred, the answer is simple for Canadians : we wouldn't like to live in a country knowing some people have more rights to a better treatment (and ultimately life) than others and that this right is proportional to your income.




Yet another reason I could have listed but chose not to. Since you brought it up I'll address it.

Canadians as a whole (and yes I realize this cannot be said of every single Canadian) are an envious bunch. They can't bear to think that anyone might have anything more than they do, no matter how hard that person worked to get it. But rather than make it easier for everyone to get more, they have decided it's better to make sure no one can get anything. They've certainly succeeded with the health "care" system.

Quote:

This is simply how NOT to build a society.




It certainly isn't the way to build a Socialist Nanny State society, I'll give you that.

Quote:

(by the way I would suggest you to read more about Cuba's healthcare system as I believe it should serve as an example for the world.




I guarantee you I know more about Cuba's health care woes than you do, seeing as how I live right next door to Cuba, have Cuban expatriates as personal friends, have had long discussions with many people living here (Dominican Republic) who spend considerable time in Cuba every year, and I have read widely on the subject to boot.

Cuba's medical situation is a freaking nightmare. It's worse than Canada's. At least in Canada the facilities are actually stocked; the problem in Canada is the interminable wait. Once you are finally scheduled to be looked after in Canada the operating rooms have the drugs and machines and staff do actually do something. This is far from the case in Cuba. They have almost no equipment, almost no drugs, and often not even enough pine-sol to keep the place clean.

Here's just one link to open your eyes. If you are truly interested in learning more about it, do a bit of digging. It's all out there for anyone who isn't Noam Chomsky to see: http://www.babalublog.com/archives/001470.html

So sorry, but if you think Cuba's health care system "should serve as an example for the world" there's no point taking this further till you educate yourself on just how abominable it really is.

Quote:

Just try to see how they do it, even with an embargo going on for 40 years...




"Embargo"? Cuba can (and does) trade with every Western nation except the USA. Canada, for example, trades extensively with Cuba. Of course, Canada isn't the place to go looking for help with anything medical, but that leaves every country in Europe, Asia, Africa, and South America free to take up the slack.

Quote:

"The Liberal federal government is hopelessly corrupt and has been for decades."

I'd immediately ask for facts and proofs of such a hopelessly corrupt system, but hey, probably the only news of Canada you recieve is about the sponsorship program, so I won't bother mentionning the ethical transparency our government (especially Quebec) has shown over the years. (what's that? no independent 9/11 commission for you in the U.S.? Wow...I'd be really pissed!)




Jesus Christ on a crutch! You claim you're a Quebecer? It would take pages to list all the scandals of the Chretien government, let alone the Quebec provincial government.

"Ethical transparency"? Bwahahaha! Yeah... all these latest revelations are hitting the sunlight because of "transparency" all right.

The Liberal government has been scandal-ridden since before I left Canada over seventeen years ago. And even though I'm now a resident of the Dominican Republic, I still spend an average of six to eight weeks a year in Canada visiting friends and family. When I'm there I read Canadian papers and watch Canadian news programs.

Quote:

"The level of taxation is confiscatory."

Well, I must guess this is the main reason why you moved down South, but now that you're gone don't complain about the democratic choices our country has made election over election in recent years. You don't have anything to say about it anymore and if people find the taxation level so "confiscatory" they should also be moving away... they are free to do so.




So you concede my point.

Quote:

"Quebec holds the rest of the country hostage while billions of dollars are pissed away on bilingual initiatives that don't work and aren't needed."

I could get in quite an argument with you over this (as i live in Quebec and am French-speaking) but I must agree the province of Quebec shouldn't be allowed more money than other provinces inside the federation. Unfortunately, the problem goes much deeper than money and your statement clearly demonstrates you do not quite know the situation here. We'll talk about it once you go shopping at the local mall and a salesman/saleswoman refuses to speak to you in the official language... Otherwise just keep on reading about Quebec's history in the past 250 years.




Dude, if I can't understand what a sales clerk is saying to me, I'll shop elsewhere. Of course, as a longtime resident of Ottawa and a frequent visitor to Hull, Aylmer, Gatineau, and Montreal, I've run into the situation of having salesclerks refuse to speak to me in English countless times. Hell, it's happened to me in border towns on the Ontario side of the river as well, and a couple of times even in Vanier (a Francophone section of Ottawa). No sweat off my nose.

Quote:

" The mountain of government regulations (not even mentioning the level of taxation now -- although that too is an enormous barrier -- just speaking of petty and absurd regulations) makes it twice (perhaps more) as hard to run a business than in the US. "

I guess your conclusion that a business here is twice as hard (...or perhaps more!!! MY GOD!) to run as in the U.S is the result of a very scientific process which calculates the average daily amout of calories a CEO has to ingest in order not to file bankrupcy...




No, it comes from running a business in Canada (not my own... I was district sales manager for a large computer reseller right before I left Canada) and talking with dozens of others who try to run their own. It's clear you yourself have no experience running a business in Canada.

Quote:

"The Canadian military is a joke and has been for decades."

Well, I agree that it's kind of a joke from a U.S. perspective but I would ask you to tell me why we should need better military protection ? As opposed to the U.S., we just haven't deemed necessary, in our own interest, to install dictatorships and support right-wing extremist states all over the world this past century...




It's a joke from the perspective of Canadian military men and women as well. My father was in the Canadian military all his life and I grew up on a succession of Canadian military bases. I have friends from childhood who are currently in the military. Canada has fifty year old helicopters crashing on a regular basis (in the few hours each month they have been patched up enough to fly at all) and the Canadian troops in Afghanistan were sent there with no boots.

Quote:

"As for "freedom and liberty for all", only someone who has never lived in Canada could claim Canada has done a much better job of implementing it than the US. Or someone who has no grasp of the meaning of either freedom or liberty."

As for your beautiful and thoughtful conclusion, I should add that freedom must have many different interpretations because I don't think Canada has ever invaded another country for trivial reasons (aka OIL, most recently) and killed innocent bystanders while doing so.




There were no Canadians in the Gulf War of 1991? You might want to check your facts, dude. There are no Canadians in Afghanistan? Repeat after me... "Google is my friend".

Phred


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OfflineBCBudJohn
Foolhardy

Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 150
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Last seen: 11 years, 17 days
Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4370570 - 07/05/05 12:23 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Canadas public health-care system is still very young, of course it will be shaky to start. Taxation is a necessary part of a socialist system. By its very nature, there is more government to pay for, which is what canadians have chosen.

Name one scandal and corruption-free government on earth. The scandals the canadian government has undertaken are generally speaking less reprehensible and less dramatic than our neighbours. IMO.

Canadas military is a joke, largely because of underfunding, but this can be attributed to national interest. (not coercion of dogma and ideology). If you see how canadians responded in world war I and world war II, you would see an important aspect of canadas military is to defend itself from imminent and legitimate threats.

Yes, canada is well-know for its ridiculous beaurocracy.

One promising note is that the quality of life of canadians is one of the highest rated in the UN, in fact i believe it was #1 for a few years. Universal healthcare plays a large role.

Unfortunately, an un-moderated capitalist system leaves people behind, and takes away oppurtunity for those who are not already rich. Rich get richer, poor get poorer.
( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35175-2004Aug26.html )


--------------------
Peace
John


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