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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Shins]
    #19261834 - 12/11/13 06:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

sweeper54 said:
I don't think they should be there and it's not their fault they are there. It's the selfless sacrifice that service member to endure that separates them form civilian oxygen thief's. They are paying their debt to this country, and this country is not paying their debt to them.




but it is their fault.  Thecreal heroicvthing to do is disobey orders that are immoral and wrong.

If you do not you deserve no respect youvdeserve scorn.





DUDE went you straighten out try this reply again.

Your another asshole who doesn't know squat about why people join the military.


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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19261881 - 12/11/13 06:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

If someone is willing to give their life for me and  my country



bullshit. They aren't giving anything for you. You're delusional if you think soldiers are over there fighting for our 'freedom' or 'safety' or whatever other rhetoric it is today.




I agree with you, one would have to pretty fucking stupid to believe lil'bushies wars had anything to do with freedom or safety, but that has NOTHING to do with serving your country in the military and IF you had served you'd know that.


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OfflineTheOtherAdamSmith
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Registered: 11/28/13
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psilynut]
    #19261906 - 12/11/13 06:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
Quote:


    I know why you should be grateful. If it  we're not for these people volunteering to do this job our govt would probably force you to do it.




Yeah, but when the government forces people to do it, suddenly people care if their wars are unethical. Remember Vietnam? The draft killed it.


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Offlinepsilynut
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19262028 - 12/11/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:



I agree with you, one would have to pretty fucking stupid to believe lil'bushies wars had anything to do with freedom or safety, but that has NOTHING to do with serving your country in the military and IF you had served you'd know that.




Did I say anything about bushes wars ? Please quote me on that cause what I said had nothing to do with that .


Quote:


bullshit. They aren't giving anything for you. You're delusional if you think soldiers are over there fighting for our 'freedom' or 'safety' or whatever other rhetoric it is today.





Your delusional if you think what I said has anything to do with wats going on now. Or bush. It doesn't . Serving in the military is still a job that needs to be done even when were not at war. Your still saying Im willing to give my life , in case my country needs me , I'm even willing to give it for the idiots who are too ignorant to see it and appreciate it .


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Invisiblemyc_check1212
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psilynut]
    #19262732 - 12/11/13 08:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I must say gentleman I am quite surprised at the outcome of my post. I admit when I started this my attitude was cynical, but i am glad i was wrong on this one. No suprise it went off but in a good way like going out for McDonalds,getting lost and finding an Arby's.

excelsior


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Lord_Senate: Pedophiles, rapists and everything in between.

pastywhyte said: I'm not going to rush, I believe crow is best served cold.

AhabMcBathsalts said: This is why democracy doesn't work. Because idiots like this get a fucking vote.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: sweeper54]
    #19264129 - 12/12/13 02:39 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sweeper54 said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

If someone is willing to give their life for me and  my country



bullshit. They aren't giving anything for you. You're delusional if you think soldiers are over there fighting for our 'freedom' or 'safety' or whatever other rhetoric it is today.




I agree with you, one would have to pretty fucking stupid to believe lil'bushies wars had anything to do with freedom or safety, but that has NOTHING to do with serving your country in the military and IF you had served you'd know that.





You're delusional if you think they are serving their country.

The sentiment might be there ill give you thst but in reality soldiers today are doing more harm than good to the country.


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Invisiblemyc_check1212
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Shins] * 1
    #19264446 - 12/12/13 06:10 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

With a record number of peoples on some sort of government assistance, and throngs of underachieving unemployed I'm eager to read how the military with its fixed budget, limited roll and no say in policy is doing more harm than good.

set your phasers to dunce, because this is going to be brilliant.


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Lord_Senate: Pedophiles, rapists and everything in between.

pastywhyte said: I'm not going to rush, I believe crow is best served cold.

AhabMcBathsalts said: This is why democracy doesn't work. Because idiots like this get a fucking vote.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19264467 - 12/12/13 06:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

First, the military is doing little or no good, so it doesn't take much for it to be doing more harm than good.

Second, every time someone in a foreign land is killed by our military, several people lose a father, mother, son, daughter, brother, sister, or friend.  Those people get hurt and then angry.  Some of those people get angry enough to do something about it later.  We are creating the next generation of America-hating terrorists.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19264557 - 12/12/13 07:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Second, every time someone in a foreign land is killed by our military, several people lose a father, mother, son, daughter, brother, sister, or friend.  Those people get hurt and then angry.  Some of those people get angry enough to do something about it later.



So we should allow experienced terrorists to continue killing folks on the off chance that killing them might inspire some n00b to attempt to emulate their exploits? Ninja, please!

Quote:

We are creating the next generation of America-hating terrorists.



Assumes facts not in evidence.

There will always be Islamist terrorists who genuinely believe their mission in life is to kill infidels, regardless of what America does. To believe otherwise is to exhibit willful ignorance. They don't kill us because of what we do, but because of what we are: infidels.


Phred


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19264563 - 12/12/13 07:23 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

There is a lot of real estate between invading other countries (particularly ones wholly unrelated to terrorist attacks on America) and just "allow[ing] experienced terrorists to continue killing folks"

And as for your second point...I don't see a whole lot of terrorist bombings happening in China...aren't they infidels, too?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19264631 - 12/12/13 07:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
And as for your second point...I don't see a whole lot of terrorist bombings happening in China...aren't they infidels, too?




I suspect you'd not hear about terrorist bombings in China even if there are.

The rulers can't appear weak.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19264639 - 12/12/13 07:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I had to go look.

Quote:

While terrorism in China does not get the same international attention as pollution, economic growth or other development-related problems, the country has experienced a steady stream of terrorist incidents and violent riots in recent years, totaling nearly 30 incidents in the past decade.




http://qz.com/144099/bombing-at-provincial-communist-party-hq-adds-to-chinas-long-list-of-violent-attacks/

Note that I've never heard of qz.com before and have no knowledge of their accuracy.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19264644 - 12/12/13 07:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well what do you know... the religion of peace.

Quote:

Islamist group claims responsibility for attack on China's Tiananmen Square




http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/25/islamist-china-tiananmen-beijing-attack


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19264651 - 12/12/13 07:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It's good to know that the Chinese get to have some fun, too.


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Invisiblemyc_check1212
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19264669 - 12/12/13 08:00 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The military can't do anything without a go ahead from a civilian democratically elected official. Whatever populace dissent or hadji vendetta lands at their feet. Not the military.

as for china no hadj would dare step out of line, while I like to think America can kick ass and take names it can't do it like we used to. We show restraint, sometimes. It also doesn't help when we meat shields are deployed with one hand tied behind our back.

now china can do it like we used to with all the tenacity of a secular communist superpower. Heartless totalitarian have a way of making sure there is no loose ends. If China were to step up and solve their radical Islamic infestation it would be a fucking slaughter. Stalin,Hitler,Mao and Pol Pot would look like alter boys by comparison.


--------------------
Lord_Senate: Pedophiles, rapists and everything in between.

pastywhyte said: I'm not going to rush, I believe crow is best served cold.

AhabMcBathsalts said: This is why democracy doesn't work. Because idiots like this get a fucking vote.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19264713 - 12/12/13 08:13 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Your argument is equivalent to an "I was just following orders" defense.  People in the military voluntarily chose to be a part of two unjust wars.  No one was forced to serve.


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Invisiblemyc_check1212
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19264760 - 12/12/13 08:23 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

No. The duty of a soldier is to follow all lawful orders. Since those orders come from an outside civilian authority take it up with the top. The only times when a soldier is wrong is when he disobeys lawful orders or behaves in a way that violated UCMJ,Geneva convention et.al.


--------------------
Lord_Senate: Pedophiles, rapists and everything in between.

pastywhyte said: I'm not going to rush, I believe crow is best served cold.

AhabMcBathsalts said: This is why democracy doesn't work. Because idiots like this get a fucking vote.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19264776 - 12/12/13 08:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You're missing the point.  They knew before they joined or re-upped that they would be participating in an unjust war if they did so.  Knowing that, they still signed up.  That makes them 100% responsible for their participation in unjust wars.


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Invisiblemyc_check1212
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19264873 - 12/12/13 08:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

They only participated in a war they were sent too. Again, the military has no say except when it comes down how to do "x". If your opinion is the wars are unjust you have to take it up with who sent them. If it wasn't for congress/president the military would just be on training missions and stand by. We sign up in good faith and give up a significant amount of voice and liberty. We hand it over to the elected and then follow.

there are two ways I know to "fight" an order. One is to file for CO, conscience objector status. You can file on religious grounds, like a Quaker or political grounds I.e. "unjust war".

the other is through UCMJ, akin to taking a case to the Supreme Court with the same high stakes and pressure. The last case I know of was in 03 when reservists refused to leave the wire until they had the same hardware as their active duty counterparts. They lost I think. Point is none of it would have happened, including the war without the ok from the rest of you who had a say.

the military is a Republic in the rawest form, everybody in uniform gives up a piece of themselves to form something bigger. That creature is then at the behest of others. We sign up, regardless of motive with a blank slate. Its up to the rest of you to make the cause just.


--------------------
Lord_Senate: Pedophiles, rapists and everything in between.

pastywhyte said: I'm not going to rush, I believe crow is best served cold.

AhabMcBathsalts said: This is why democracy doesn't work. Because idiots like this get a fucking vote.


Edited by myc_check1212 (12/12/13 09:01 AM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19265007 - 12/12/13 09:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

They were only "sent" to the war because they signed up KNOWING WE WERE AT WAR.  They volunteered to go to war.  No one drafted them.  They knew we were at war, and knew that if they signed up, they'd likely be participating in that way.  They are 100% responsible for their participation.

Your argument is so nonsensical that it's hard to believe that you're not trolling.  If I pull a lever knowing it will kill someone, I'm responsible for killing that person, regardless of whether or not I created the lever or hooked it up to the apparatus that kills the person.  I knew it would happen and chose to pull it knowing someone would die because of it.

Similarly, everyone in the military today KNEW we were at war when they chose to be, or continue being, in the military.  It's not like anyone joined up and suddenly found out they were going to go to war.  That would be a different situation, and is simply not the case today.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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